Will a Christian answer this rational...
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#10623 Dec 31, 2012
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>This is one of Jeff the Whiffer's go-to moves. When I back him to the wall, he attacks my Beliefs with accusations they are untested, etc, by him of course...as if I cared.
He'll go off topic/distract prob'y as much as he misses the bowl when pee'n...
I don't attack your beliefs because you don't lay out what your beliefs are and what is the evidence for them. I did say you are a coward for doing so because you know they would not be able to withstand any scrutiny as being true.
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10624 Dec 31, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The roman guards witnessed the resurrection. The empty tomb is evidence of the resurrection. His appearance to over 500 people over the course of 40 days is evidence of the resurrection. His ascension was witnesses by many in Acts 1.
The Bible is a record of these events just like a history book is a record of what happened in the past.
Nope, an empty tomb is not evidence of a resurrection...only of an empty tomb.

Which guards, did they write stuff down? Did they go around shouting about it...do you know who they were? And they never mentioned actually witnessing the actual resurrection as it happened...

Nothing to verify any of the rest. Its all story telling...made up long after the reality of Jesus's one and only and final death.
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10625 Dec 31, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't attack your beliefs because you don't lay out what your beliefs are and what is the evidence for them. I did say you are a coward for doing so because you know they would not be able to withstand any scrutiny as being true.
Wrong. As its a silly assertion that is based on nothing credible. I dont believe in YOUR Religious System of Beliefs involving the Supernatural, thats all that is relevant to you and these forums.

If you have direct Q, about something moral or ethical, I could answer it...but there is no "Book Of Punisher's Beliefs". Which of course you'll now disparage in another of your lame attempts to attack me...when you see you have nothing else.

Plus this makes no sense; "lay out what your beliefs are and what is the evidence for them."

Evidence for them? What does that really mean? Its a rather empty remark, so I really cant pay it much attention.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#10626 Dec 31, 2012
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Nope, an empty tomb is not evidence of a resurrection...only of an empty tomb.
Which guards, did they write stuff down? Did they go around shouting about it...do you know who they were? And they never mentioned actually witnessing the actual resurrection as it happened...
Nothing to verify any of the rest. Its all story telling...made up long after the reality of Jesus's one and only and final death.
All agree the tomb was empty. No body was ever produced by the Romans nor the Jewish authorities. The disciples would not have been able to overcome the Roman guards and take the body. The guards were paid off.(Matt 28:11-15)
If the authorities could have produced the body it would have stopped Christianity.
Jesus' appearances to various people and groups over a period of 40 days also supports the empty tomb. The apostles never recanted that they saw the risen Christ and went to their deaths for it.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#10627 Dec 31, 2012
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Wrong. As its a silly assertion that is based on nothing credible. I dont believe in YOUR Religious System of Beliefs involving the Supernatural, thats all that is relevant to you and these forums.
If you have direct Q, about something moral or ethical, I could answer it...but there is no "Book Of Punisher's Beliefs". Which of course you'll now disparage in another of your lame attempts to attack me...when you see you have nothing else.
Plus this makes no sense; "lay out what your beliefs are and what is the evidence for them."
Evidence for them? What does that really mean? Its a rather empty remark, so I really cant pay it much attention.
Progress. You don't have evidence for your beliefs. Christians do. We have the resurrection of Christ, evidence inside and outside the Bible for God and a 2000 year history of making our case. We also have good reasons for the after life and morality that is not based on our opinions alone. We also have the teachings of Christ on how to live while you could never offer such a thing based on your opinions that could stand the test of time as Christianity has.
You have nothing but your own opinions.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#10628 Dec 31, 2012
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Nope, an empty tomb is not evidence of a resurrection...only of an empty tomb.
Which guards, did they write stuff down? Did they go around shouting about it...do you know who they were? And they never mentioned actually witnessing the actual resurrection as it happened...
Nothing to verify any of the rest. Its all story telling...made up long after the reality of Jesus's one and only and final death.
There is hardly anything from the ancient world of common soldiers writing something down. In fact I can't think of one thing written down by a common soldier about something that happened 2000 years ago. Can you?
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10629 Dec 31, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Using the Bible as a record of an event is the same kind of thing we accept when a history book tells us of an event. Is the recording of an event in a history book proof of an event?
Short answer; No actually its not. History books get things wrong or as we KNOW in the USA, they will intentionally skew them to an agenda. Many court battles in the state of Texas (big text-book producer) over text-book content attest to that reality.

Longer answer;
All cultures have a pop-culture mythos that usually contradicts historical reality. Like say how the West Was Won in the US. A lot of BS and outright lies have been taught and circulate in our pop-culture mythos. One classic example is Custers last Stand. Didnt happen the way its been taught. The event itself is recorded properly in history books - but not the details, and certainly not the Larger than life Mythos of Custer being a righteous man cut down by savages.

There are plenty of really good non-text-book books out there setting the reality of American history straight...I suggest you take a look and see what I mean.

"We" can and do look at Caesar's Travels" written about his campaigns into the British Isles and what he says about the land and its peoples...and we see some historical reality there, but not in full. Historians have had to pick it apart and when they found other sources from the Cultures themselves parse together a more complete and accurate picture of the land and peoples that contradicts Caesar's Roman POV regarding the cultures they were invading. We might have once relied solely on Caesars writings, but not any longer.

This we know....this one-sided nature of telling and eventually recording History is not new...except maybe to You.

Plus with History Books, legitimate ones, we rely on a number of parties doing the hard and right work to make the content as accurate as is possible...they DONT rely on ONE source of Information. Like the Bible. Which is the ONLY source for all of the content.(and the content doesn't prove the claims made about it)

A few years ago I spent a lot of time reading a lot about WW2...and as such I found contradictory telling of certain events, and biographical info. Some of it was because I was reading older books (written closer to the events) that didnt have newer information available to them. Some of it was due I surmise to the authors mistakes -(intentional or not I cant conclude in most cases...but some clearly had an agenda.)

If you read a book about the Cold War written prior to the fall of the USSR and Berlin and compare it to one now they will be in conflict due to the newer information that scholars now have access to.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#10630 Dec 31, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Prove that hell i.e. eternal damnation does not exist. If you do that, then you can truly claim its a myth. If you can't do so, then I will know you are smoking peyote.
You cannot prove a negative, peyote joker. That's Logic 101.

Prove that there is NOT a China teapot in orbit around Saturn. If you cannot, that is proof or strong evidence that there IS one in orbit --- right?:)
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#10631 Dec 31, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
If the authorities could have produced the body it would have stopped Christianity.
They weren't interested. They were not expecting resurrection stories to come along decades later. As far as the Romans were concerned, crucifying the troublemaker Jesus who overturned Temple tables was enough and put an end to it.
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus' appearances to various people and groups over a period of 40 days also supports the empty tomb.
Stories, written later and contradictory.
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The apostles never recanted that they saw the risen Christ and went to their deaths for it.
They went to their deaths for being troublemakers starting a new religion and ruffling up the powers that be at the time. They did NOT go their deaths after some dramatic last question "Will you, on pain of death, recant your claim that Jesus was resurrected," etc.
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10632 Dec 31, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Progress. You don't have evidence for your beliefs. Christians do. We have the resurrection of Christ, evidence inside and outside the Bible for God and a 2000 year history of making our case. We also have good reasons for the after life and morality that is not based on our opinions alone. We also have the teachings of Christ on how to live while you could never offer such a thing based on your opinions that could stand the test of time as Christianity has.
You have nothing but your own opinions.
These are all faith based beliefs. They are nothing but articles of Faith, not supported by hard and definitive evidence. And its YOUR opinion that these are true and its our OPINION that YOU need to follow them...which in reality you barely do.

And you dont have outside evidence of your or any god. You have an opinion based on Your choice of Faith, that your religious tome is accurate. Which we know is all FAITH BASED. Not evidence based.

My opinion that murder is wrong in 98% of the cases and should be punishable under the law is not mine alone. And No super-being is needed to hold it or enforce it.

The reality of it is, what hard evidence do any of us have that its really wrong? We cant rely on your Bible, as Xtianity has written its infamous Doctrines of War and long excused State sanctioned murder for a long time now. So clearly murder is not so black and white for Xtians as they always make excuses for such things.

Articles of Religious Faith are not Evidence (as we define it) of the truth or proof of the magical claims made. never will be.

“A JOURNEY OF A THOUSAND MILES”

Since: Aug 08

MUST BEGIN WITH A SINGLE STEP!

#10633 Dec 31, 2012
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
You cannot prove a negative, peyote joker. That's Logic 101.
Prove that there is NOT a China teapot in orbit around Saturn. If you cannot, that is proof or strong evidence that there IS one in orbit --- right?:)
Exactly.......it's like claiming the bible is evidence that God exists or that Heaven exists......where is this supposed eternal damnation spot? Why has it NEVER been physically found? and please tell me what the hell they are putting in that holy water these days? I want to know.....either to drink it and see what the hell these Christians are seeing or avoid it all together.......lol!!!
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10634 Dec 31, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
There is hardly anything from the ancient world of common soldiers writing something down. In fact I can't think of one thing written down by a common soldier about something that happened 2000 years ago. Can you?
So you cant rely on witnesses that cant be proved to have even been there. Also it need not be them, but not even a scrap of a rumor circulated that, "the Guy we beat the cr/p out of a few days ago, you know the Jewish preacher...no body was found in his tomb when the women came for it...weird!" Nothing! Soldiers are nothing if not gossipy. Even the Romans.

Yet we do have remains of common soldiers writing home, etc...it was common practice to write home, keep records of ones service, request goods and such things, etc...

“A JOURNEY OF A THOUSAND MILES”

Since: Aug 08

MUST BEGIN WITH A SINGLE STEP!

#10635 Dec 31, 2012
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>But this tactic has a long and storied history in Xtianity that Believers like Jeffy Weffy cant understand they cant rely on any longer. In the past when Xtians could legally and easily persecute anyone for blasphemy, they could pull the "See, it says so in the Bible, and we know the Bible is the 100% inerrant Word of THE only true God!" and someone might die, or have their lives ruined for their opposing position.
The fact that the BIBLE never proved its own stories and never will (that reality always existed but was summarily ignored by Xtian-dom)...has finally been pushed to the forefront of a Civilized Nation/s and valid system of debate where Religious persecution is no longer tolerated (in full) any longer.(dont get me wrong I still think Xtianity and most Xtians persecute some people, either with intent, or now more due to their apathy)
The true rules of Debate/Argumentation (which are older than their Religion) are now finally being heeded, and no longer are Xtians allowed to run the table, set the house rules and be the bank all at once. They can no longer use the Bible as proof of the contents factual nature...because they dont run things any more.
But ill-educated and poorly prepared Xtians like Jeff the Glue sniffer still think they can play by the old rules once enforced by only Xtian-dom.
That's why there is a decline in formalized religion because people do ask more questions with regards to the stories and all they get is some bible verse, which doesn't answer their question, but makes additional questions......I mean that was my problem and why I left formalized religion......it doesn't mean I don't have a spiritual belief in God or a Higher Power, and through research, I can understand that our world, universe is much older than just 6000 years old. Where these Christians believe that the Earth or our universe is young.....I believe that it is much older and that a day might have been like a billion years.......either way, they can't explain certain things without their precious book and I have issues with that.

Peace to you and yours.......have a Happy New Year, may it be bright and prosperous:-)
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10636 Dec 31, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
There is hardly anything from the ancient world of common soldiers writing something down. In fact I can't think of one thing written down by a common soldier about something that happened 2000 years ago. Can you?
So should we rely on the early stories that Xtians were engaged in cannibalism and orgies in their Agape feast gatherings? Those much be accurate? As well as Xtians stealing Jewish babies for their rituals.(stories which were in turn used by Xtians to later persecute the Jews with)

We have hard proof of such stories being circulated, they must be true.
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10637 Dec 31, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Prove that hell i.e. eternal damnation does not exist. If you do that, then you can truly claim its a myth. If you can't do so, then I will know you are smoking peyote.
(Buzzer sounds!) Fallacy of appealing to ignorance. You lose 100 pts.
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10638 Dec 31, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
All agree the tomb was empty. No body was ever produced by the Romans nor the Jewish authorities. The disciples would not have been able to overcome the Roman guards and take the body. The guards were paid off.(Matt 28:11-15)
If the authorities could have produced the body it would have stopped Christianity.
Jesus' appearances to various people and groups over a period of 40 days also supports the empty tomb. The apostles never recanted that they saw the risen Christ and went to their deaths for it.
Dont make stuff up to pad your silly arguments. Who says the guards even cared? Do we know anything about them? No.

They could have been bribed...soldiers have been known to take a bribe, yes?

What did they care? For all we know Mary and the girls distracted the guards with their feminine wiles...

We know nothing of the details...so dont make stuff up.

Dying for shyte is not proof of anything, least of magical. People die for ideals all the time. Can you produce a Thing called Democracy? Can we hold it in our hands? Do we not all have differing POV's on what it is, and how it should manifest? Which form of Democracy did white soldiers die for in WW2? The one where blacks were still inferiors? Some did, others did not. Yet that form still existed when they all got home. Did the black soldiers die for that version?

Plus in the early days we KNOW for a FACT Xtians thought the end was very near anyway...so their death was either now for their beliefs or in a little while...either way they were dying soon.
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10639 Dec 31, 2012
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
They weren't interested. They were not expecting resurrection stories to come along decades later. As far as the Romans were concerned, crucifying the troublemaker Jesus who overturned Temple tables was enough and put an end to it.
<quoted text>
Stories, written later and contradictory.
<quoted text>
They went to their deaths for being troublemakers starting a new religion and ruffling up the powers that be at the time. They did NOT go their deaths after some dramatic last question "Will you, on pain of death, recant your claim that Jesus was resurrected," etc.
Ive always questioned this story.

Why did the Romans care to put guards on the tomb, when Jesus' followers had already high-tailed it into hiding? Who was left to worry about? A girlfriend, mom, a brother or two...?

Why did they even allow the body to be removed from the cross? Why would they suddenly care about any of it? Why would they go off script to appease a minor Jewish rabble-rouser? Taking it down early lends credence that maybe the few people brave enough to stick around (unlike his band of brothers, the women had the cajones all along) saw Jesus might still have been alive.??? "If we can get him down, he might survive..."

And what poor wretch of a soldier got tomb duty? Who did he/they cross (no pun intended) to get that assignment? Sounds like an assignment where alcohol would be much needed.

That Jeffy and others think there was a contingent of hardened Roman guards at the tomb (cause Rome was scared) is proof of their silliness...and willingness to make stuff up in their desperation...
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10640 Dec 31, 2012
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
That's why there is a decline in formalized religion because people do ask more questions with regards to the stories and all they get is some bible verse, which doesn't answer their question, but makes additional questions......I mean that was my problem and why I left formalized religion......it doesn't mean I don't have a spiritual belief in God or a Higher Power, and through research, I can understand that our world, universe is much older than just 6000 years old. Where these Christians believe that the Earth or our universe is young.....I believe that it is much older and that a day might have been like a billion years.......either way, they can't explain certain things without their precious book and I have issues with that.
Peace to you and yours.......have a Happy New Year, may it be bright and prosperous:-)
Xtianity as we know is stuck in that place between hard objects. It can no longer truly defend the position that the Bible is inerrant, but so much of its history and Dogma is based on it they dont know what to do.

The Catholics at least have never truly held to such a strict idea of its inerrancy, hence their use of tradition, etc.

But Protys, and American Protys who are all caught up in it...they are sorely at a loss of what to do. So they do what Tradition dictates, defend, defend, defend...or the more current version Deny, deny, deny,(ala Clinton.) All they see is a cliff they cant get near...but their shortsightedness and abject fear of pretty much everything - prevents them from seeing they can climb down the cliff, and not just fall off into the abyss.

Unlike in the past there is no Leader, no deep thinking, highly educated, truly charismatic Xtian whom they can rely on to lead them out of the dark forest of boogey men and dangerous shadows. To a more modern and pragmatic version of Xtianity that moves away from superstition and puts this whole inerrancy myth to sleep.

Instead American Xtians rely on fear-mongers, racists, misogynists, and a whole host of abject morons to lead them. They prefer the neighborhood Holy man who spouts inerrancy and condemnation - over more reasonable and sensible approaches that tries to square (as best as possible) their Faith to the realities that Science and technology and more thorough investigation into the Historical narrative are presenting us all.

They prefer, as a spokesperson for Romney's campaign said, "not to let facts get in our way..." - over figuring some means to be pragmatic and move Xtianity into the modern era. They prefer to lust after Romanticized days gone by where they believe prayer in school kept the demons at bay. They prefer to support Politicians who pander to their Beliefs, even when their policies run counter to them and to Jesus most especially. They prefer to be seduced by pleas to protect "biblical marriage" - while not knowing exactly what that would mean to Woman in America and how much it would hurt us all. They orgasm every time someone puts the word "Biblical" in front of some term and appear happy that such things belittle their sacred tome.

Their children are learning first hand that gays and people of different beliefs are not evil and to be shunned. These children cant understand such things cause the kid next to them is suffering from idiot Dogmatic parents like themselves. And they are smart enough to see that its the rigid Belief systems doing it. Smart enough to see that defending the irrelevancies of the Bible is counter-productive to making any sort of spiritual movement in ones life. That defending for example Noah's story is irrelevant to the Faith in a loving God and how it should effect someones life path.

They see how their parents worship a BOOK over all else. That such worship cant be healthy and productive for growth.

Xtianity is caught in a tough place right now...and I see nothing short of a miracle that can help it.

“A JOURNEY OF A THOUSAND MILES”

Since: Aug 08

MUST BEGIN WITH A SINGLE STEP!

#10641 Dec 31, 2012
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Xtianity as we know is stuck in that place between hard objects. It can no longer truly defend the position that the Bible is inerrant, but so much of its history and Dogma is based on it they dont know what to do.
The Catholics at least have never truly held to such a strict idea of its inerrancy, hence their use of tradition, etc.
But Protys, and American Protys who are all caught up in it...they are sorely at a loss of what to do. So they do what Tradition dictates, defend, defend, defend...or the more current version Deny, deny, deny,(ala Clinton.) All they see is a cliff they cant get near...but their shortsightedness and abject fear of pretty much everything - prevents them from seeing they can climb down the cliff, and not just fall off into the abyss.
Unlike in the past there is no Leader, no deep thinking, highly educated, truly charismatic Xtian whom they can rely on to lead them out of the dark forest of boogey men and dangerous shadows. To a more modern and pragmatic version of Xtianity that moves away from superstition and puts this whole inerrancy myth to sleep.
Instead American Xtians rely on fear-mongers, racists, misogynists, and a whole host of abject morons to lead them. They prefer the neighborhood Holy man who spouts inerrancy and condemnation - over more reasonable and sensible approaches that tries to square (as best as possible) their Faith to the realities that Science and technology and more thorough investigation into the Historical narrative are presenting us all.
They prefer, as a spokesperson for Romney's campaign said, "not to let facts get in our way..." - over figuring some means to be pragmatic and move Xtianity into the modern era. They prefer to lust after Romanticized days gone by where they believe prayer in school kept the demons at bay. They prefer to support Politicians who pander to their Beliefs, even when their policies run counter to them and to Jesus most especially. They prefer to be seduced by pleas to protect "biblical marriage" - while not knowing exactly what that would mean to Woman in America and how much it would hurt us all. They orgasm every time someone puts the word "Biblical" in front of some term and appear happy that such things belittle their sacred tome.
Their children are learning first hand that gays and people of different beliefs are not evil and to be shunned. These children cant understand such things cause the kid next to them is suffering from idiot Dogmatic parents like themselves. And they are smart enough to see that its the rigid Belief systems doing it. Smart enough to see that defending the irrelevancies of the Bible is counter-productive to making any sort of spiritual movement in ones life. That defending for example Noah's story is irrelevant to the Faith in a loving God and how it should effect someones life path.
They see how their parents worship a BOOK over all else. That such worship cant be healthy and productive for growth.
Xtianity is caught in a tough place right now...and I see nothing short of a miracle that can help it.
I agree with you......modern day realistic Christians use the bible as a guide, not as a be all know all truth book like Evangelistic Born-Again Christians seem to do........what I have an issue with is that they bash others with their scriptures, yet don't clearly follow them themselves.......they want you to believe as I do, but don't do as I do type of attitude.......and when confronted with different viewpoints or thoughts, even websites......they claim we are wrong and only their beliefs are right........and I'm sorry, but you're right.....that stuff just isn't flying anymore!!!
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#10642 Dec 31, 2012
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
You cannot prove a negative, peyote joker. That's Logic 101.
Prove that there is NOT a China teapot in orbit around Saturn. If you cannot, that is proof or strong evidence that there IS one in orbit --- right?:)
Ok. I'll lower the requirement for you. Give me one good reason why you think hell cannot or could not exist?

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