Will a Christian answer this rationally?

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Since: Jul 10

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#1 Feb 3, 2011
Does a rational belief in God have any merit? A belief in God based on reason rather than revelation and involving the view that God has set the universe in motion but does not interfere with how it runs. This is called Deism and was especially influential in the 17th and 18th centuries in the US & UK. It is a perspective based on reason & knowledge as apposed to religious belief from so called ancient sacred text written by people that thought the earth was flat and that stars could fall to earth.

Since: Apr 10

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#2 Feb 3, 2011
Of course a belief in God has merit.

Where in the Bible does it say the Earth is flat?

--The Bible says the Earth is a sphere.
Isaiah 40:22-- "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

Job 26:10-- "He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters at the boundary of light and darkness"

--Where exactly did they write that stars fall to the Earth?

Since: Dec 09

Northbrook, IL

#3 Feb 3, 2011
justawounderin wrote:
Does a rational belief in God have any merit? A belief in God based on reason rather than revelation and involving the view that God has set the universe in motion but does not interfere with how it runs. This is called Deism and was especially influential in the 17th and 18th centuries in the US & UK. It is a perspective based on reason & knowledge as apposed to religious belief from so called ancient sacred text written by people that thought the earth was flat and that stars could fall to earth.
I would say there's no merit in any belief that isn't rational.
Seth

San Jose, CA

#4 Feb 3, 2011
justawounderin wrote:
Does a rational belief in God have any merit? A belief in God based on reason rather than revelation and involving the view that God has set the universe in motion but does not interfere with how it runs. This is called Deism and was especially influential in the 17th and 18th centuries in the US & UK. It is a perspective based on reason & knowledge as apposed to religious belief from so called ancient sacred text written by people that thought the earth was flat and that stars could fall to earth.
Without God giving men the ability to reason we would not be able to reason. Reason-thinking could never come about by the mindless forces of nature. Reason requires intelligence.

“Naturalism - Nature is Enough”

Since: Nov 07

UK

#5 Feb 4, 2011
Seth wrote:
<quoted text> Post 4
Without God giving men the ability to reason we would not be able to reason. Reason-thinking could never come about by the mindless forces of nature. Reason requires intelligence.
Again you are making an argument from ignorance. Given your claim do you realize the irony of this?

"It is inconceivable that (fill in the blank) could have originated naturally. Therefore, it must have been created.

This argument, also known as the argument from ignorance or "god of the gaps," is implicit in a very many different creationist arguments. In particular, it is behind all arguments against abiogenesis and any and all claims of intelligent design.

Really, the claim is "I can't conceive that (fill in the blank)." Others might be able to find a natural explanation; in many cases, they already have. Nobody knows everything, so it is unreasonable to conclude that something is impossible just because you do not know it. Even a noted antievolutionist acknowledges this point: "The peril of negative arguments is that they may rest on our lack of knowledge, rather than on positive results" (Behe 2003)."

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA100.h...

“Darwin died for your sins”

Since: Aug 08

Nunya

#6 Feb 4, 2011
H_A_T wrote:
Of course a belief in God has merit.
Where in the Bible does it say the Earth is flat?
--The Bible says the Earth is a sphere.
Isaiah 40:22-- "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."
Job 26:10-- "He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters at the boundary of light and darkness"
--Where exactly did they write that stars fall to the Earth?
Circles are flat.

“Naturalism - Nature is Enough”

Since: Nov 07

UK

#7 Feb 4, 2011
H_A_T wrote:
Post 2
Of course a belief in God has merit.
In what way?
H_A_T wrote:
Post 2
Where in the Bible does it say the Earth is flat?
--The Bible says the Earth is a sphere.
Isaiah 40:22-- "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."
Job 26:10-- "He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters at the boundary of light and darkness"
--Where exactly did they write that stars fall to the Earth?
"The Bible’s flat earth

In the Bible the earth is a round flat object with ends and which is immovable and set on pillars.

Here God is imagined to draw a circle on the face of the waters to make the earth.

(Prov 8:26-27 NRSV) when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world’s first bits of soil. When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

A circle is of course a flat round object. Some would say that the ancient Hebrews had no word for sphere so they used circle, but that is not true. There is a Hebrew word for ball used in the bible. A flat round earth was intuitive to these primitive people. If you picture yourself in their place, it would not be too hard to imagine the earth as being round and flat as you turn around to trace the outline of the horizon where the sky seems to meet the earth.

Here God is imagined to sit above the circle of the earth looking down on it’s inhabitants who are small like grasshoppers.

(Isa 40:22 NRSV) It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;

Again a circle is a flat two dimensional object and there was a Hebrew word for ball which would have been more appropriate if the author would have been aware of the earth’s spherical nature."

http://www.goatstar.org/the-bibles-flat-earth...

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#8 Feb 4, 2011
H_A_T wrote:
Of course a belief in God has merit.
My question was "Does a >>>rational<< < belief in God have any merit?" which you did not answer. Somehow you forgot the rational part which eliminated the gist of my post.
H_A_T wrote:
Where in the Bible does it say the Earth is flat?
If a man 3,000 years ago was out at sea in a ship and looked at the 365 degree horizon, it looked like a flat circle and that's why it's in the Bible. Gives insight to how little those ancient people knew and the reason for their superstition...Even Christopher Columbus thought he might sail off the edge of the earth less than 700 years ago.
H_A_T wrote:
The Bible says the Earth is a sphere.
Isaiah 40:22-- "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth >>>upon<<< the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; (Not above as you posted). A man does not need a formal education to understand a circle is not a sphere. Draw a circle on a piece of paper and it's as flat as a sail rabbit in rush hour traffic!!
H_A_T wrote:
Where exactly did they write that stars fall to the Earth?
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, >>>and the stars shall fall from heaven,<<< and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: They obviously didn't know our sun is a star because the sun will only be darkened and the rest of the stars will fall from heaven!! There's billions of them in our Milky Way galaxy..but they didn't know that either did they..

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#9 Feb 4, 2011
Seth wrote:
<quoted text>
Without God giving men the ability to reason we would not be able to reason. Reason-thinking could never come about by the mindless forces of nature. Reason requires intelligence.
Humans aren't the only species that have the ability to reason. Predators uses it all the time to enhance their ability to catch prey..What makes you think rational thinking could not come about through the process of evolution?
Seth

San Jose, CA

#10 Feb 4, 2011
Roland_Deschain wrote:
<quoted text>
Again you are making an argument from ignorance. Given your claim do you realize the irony of this?
"It is inconceivable that (fill in the blank) could have originated naturally. Therefore, it must have been created.
This argument, also known as the argument from ignorance or "god of the gaps," is implicit in a very many different creationist arguments. In particular, it is behind all arguments against abiogenesis and any and all claims of intelligent design.
Really, the claim is "I can't conceive that (fill in the blank)." Others might be able to find a natural explanation; in many cases, they already have. Nobody knows everything, so it is unreasonable to conclude that something is impossible just because you do not know it. Even a noted antievolutionist acknowledges this point: "The peril of negative arguments is that they may rest on our lack of knowledge, rather than on positive results" (Behe 2003)."
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA100.h...
Show me how chemicals lead to thinking and reasoning? Instead of attacking my views, show how naturalism can account for thinking.
Seth

San Jose, CA

#11 Feb 4, 2011
justawounderin wrote:
<quoted text>
Humans aren't the only species that have the ability to reason. Predators uses it all the time to enhance their ability to catch prey..What makes you think rational thinking could not come about through the process of evolution?
Evolution is just a physical process. How could physical processes lead to reasoning-thinking? Think of your computer. The computer does not think even though it can do a number of things.

“Naturalism - Nature is Enough”

Since: Nov 07

UK

#12 Feb 4, 2011
Seth wrote:
<quoted text> Post 10.
Show me how chemicals lead to thinking and reasoning? Instead of attacking my views, show how naturalism can account for thinking
.
Thinking and reasoning are a result of evolution, a development of simple danger warning systems.

"Early life, some 3.5 billion years ago, consisted of single living cells. A single cell is a very complex assembly of biological material engaged in complex chemical processes. Single cell life developed, through the process of evolution, over a period of billions of years. See The Evolution of the Cell for more detail on cell development. The evolution of man from the single cell is far less a magnificent process than was the development of the cell itself. The development of man required, once the cell was established and began forming cooperatives, about 680 million years. The development of the cell itself required about 3 billion prior years.

The first multicellular animals began appearing about 680 million years ago. These were living creatures composed of cooperating cells. All of the higher animals, including man, developed from these. Note the process from the simple to the complex. Note the development, first of collecting individual biological processes into a single cell, then the construction of creatures from multiple uses of the cell. One by one the biological processes were assembled in the cell, then one by one the characteristics of all modern life were built from multiple cells.

The human brain was developed through a similar process, from the simple to the complex, along with the evolution of the human. The human body is composed of many billions of cells, working in harmony. The modern human nervous system is composed of about 100 billion neural functioning cells, supported by perhaps 10 times that many more.

As man evolved, mutations occurred in the nervous system, causing it to evolve along with the body. Those mutations were tested against the environment in the same manner as mutations involving outward physical changes. As ancient ancestors of man gained new and improved sensors, in order to survive, the neural control of those sensory enhancements developed alongside. As survival required more complex actions and reactions of the overall organism, those also developed in the form of neural circuitry along with and often a part of the sensory enhancement circuitry. See The Evolution of Man for more detail on man's development."

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/brain.html#C

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#13 Feb 4, 2011
Seth wrote:
<quoted text>
Evolution is just a physical process. How could physical processes lead to reasoning-thinking? Think of your computer. The computer does not think even though it can do a number of things.
You do realize the brain is created by a physical process I hope. Our physical brains at birth are like an empty computer hard drive. It is loaded with information from life experiences as we grow older..If Albert Einstein was born in the Amazon Rain forest he would have been getting his meals with a bow and arrow because that's all the information he had loaded into his brain..We are a product of our environment period.

The reasoning & thinking you mention comes from life experiences, nothing else. If you can prove otherwise in a rational way I'm all ears..

“Naturalism - Nature is Enough”

Since: Nov 07

UK

#14 Feb 4, 2011
Seth wrote:
<quoted text>
Think of your computer. The computer does not think even though it can do a number of things.
Not entirely true. Artificial neural networks are computer systems designed to mimic the human brain.

"A neural network consists of an interconnected group of artificial neurons, and it processes information using a connectionist approach to computation. In most cases an ANN is an adaptive system that changes its structure based on external or internal information that flows through the network during the learning phase. Modern neural networks are non-linear statistical data modeling tools. They are usually used to model complex relationships between inputs and outputs or to find patterns in data."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neura...

Given enough nodes, data acquisition capability and storage I don't see any reason why a computer should not be capable of reason.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#15 Feb 4, 2011
Seth, is there any reason why you have, apparently, never bothered to just Google "evolution of the cell" or something similar?

There is PLENTY of information out there, and no reason for you to remain ignorant of it.
Kenose

Commack, NY

#16 Feb 4, 2011
A rational christian is a rare thing to find.
Patriot

Denver, CO

#17 Feb 4, 2011
'Will a Christian answer this rationally?'

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

- ALSO -

The Coming Crisis

Warning! Don't Drink the Wine of Babylon

http://wake-up.org/daystar/wur2011/Feb.htm

http://wake-up.org/warnbook/WarnBook.htm

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#18 Feb 4, 2011
Kenose wrote:
A rational christian is a rare thing to find.
A rational Atheist is also a rare thing to find.

“Naturalism - Nature is Enough”

Since: Nov 07

UK

#19 Feb 4, 2011
Patriot wrote:
'Will a Christian answer this rationally?'
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14
- ALSO -
The Coming Crisis
Warning! Don't Drink the Wine of Babylon
http://wake-up.org/daystar/wur2011/Feb.htm
http://wake-up.org/warnbook/WarnBook.htm
Obviously you missed the word 'rationally' in the question.

“Naturalism - Nature is Enough”

Since: Nov 07

UK

#20 Feb 4, 2011
H_A_T wrote:
<quoted text>
A rational Atheist is also a rare thing to find.
Says the poster with "He is risen from the grave!" as a headline........

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