Do Jews and Christians worship the sa...

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#124 Feb 15, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
I hope you dont stop searching. Because you've found one of many contradictions between the OT and NT. But just as quick as you found one you can find more. What he explained to you wasnt in the least bit correct but hey its on you. Im not going to get in a back and forth trying to win your attention. I can see that you're searching for it so if you seek you will find. If you stop well then you probably wont lol Stay well
What's the difference between Torah, Old Testament, Tanakh, and Hebrew Bible? Ate they all one and the same and is the King James version the same as the Jewish old testament? I have a King James bible
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#125 Feb 15, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
I am happy to listen to all sides in relation to the old testament as I know very little about it. After looking at all sides hopefully it will be easier to make a decision on what the truth is
This might sound like a dumb question but are the Hebrews and the Jews one and the same peoples? I know Moses was a Hebrew if not the first Hebrew but are the Israelites also Hebrews with just a name change
Not a dumb question at all. But technically a "jew" is an adherent to the religion of Judaism whereas a Hebrew/Israelite (they are the same as you said, just a name change) or descendants of Jacob. So one could be a jew and a Hebrew (since again a jew is an adherent to a religion) but all hebrews (bloodline) are not jews. Some are christians muslims, buddhists atheists and more Im sure. Hope I explained it clearly lol
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#126 Feb 15, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Explain to me what YOU define as the difference between The Tanakh and The Torah.
Methinks YOU are misled......or misleading.
Tanakh is what you call the Old testament. The Torah is the law. I am not misleading unless you believe the God of Abraham to be another god amongst gods. Im attempting to lead people to the One WHO EXISTED BEFORE EVERYTHING ELSE. Whether people follow it or not is not up to me, but them.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#127 Feb 15, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
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<quoted text> the Hebrew word you are translating "His offspring" is "zera" which means seed. If it were "his seed" it would have had a vav at the end which is the Hebrew masculine possessive marker.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. KGV (if you reference a KGV the "his" preceeding seed is in italics which indicates the translator has added it.)
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand: Jewish Publication Society translation.
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. Chabad website
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Only the JPS renders the passage with the "his" and the Chabad website is incorrect in translating zera as children when althroughout the TNK the children of Israel are "b'nei Israel". There is an entire tractate in the Talmud on seeds called Zeraim. "im" being the suffix plural marker.
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<quoted text> How about you look at other translations before accusing me of "changing the TKH".
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Why do I need to look at other translations when I understand that "zera" means seed singular, not "b'nei" children.
<quoted text> Seed is even more clearer. Because seed = blood.
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Gen 1:11 And God said:'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed - where is the blood here?
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Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; do you really believe this is about literal serpents?
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Gen 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan:'Go in unto thy brother's wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother unto her, and raise up seed to thy brother.' Here is the brother's seed without his blood.
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Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Here seed is used as a metaphor for the word of G-d.
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Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; Here seed is used of spiritual children.
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Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning,- Another case of spiritual children.
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Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,- Yeshua's seed.
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Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. More spiritual seed.
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1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.- More non-physical seed.
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<quoted text> I am not your seed and you are not mine even if I adopted you or vice versa.
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First you incorrrectly use children as the translation and when I show you we can have children by adoption you change your word to offspring. I have posted above many examples of offspring that aren't physical or requiring blood.
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<quoted text> Nor were his days prolonged.
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If Yeshua's days were not prolonged as you claim, then where is his body and where is there any testimony anyone saw him die or saw him buried after his resurrection?
Boy it looks like Hebrew needs to be learnt to really understand how the old testament was written. Can the old testament be read by both the old Hebrew and the modern Hebrew language? Is it an easy language to learn?
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#128 Feb 15, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
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<quoted text> the Hebrew word you are translating "His offspring" is "zera" which means seed. If it were "his seed" it would have had a vav at the end which is the Hebrew masculine possessive marker.

Only the JPS renders the passage with the "his" and the Chabad website is incorrect in translating zera as children when althroughout the TNK the children of Israel are "b'nei Israel". There is an entire tractate in the Talmud on seeds called Zeraim. "im" being the suffix plural marker.
What are you even getting at? lol I dont see what you're even debating honestly

I didnt translate anything as "his offspring" so again why dont you go to other translations and see what they translated it as. I just googled the chapter and referenced the first result that came up for Isaiah 53.
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
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Why do I need to look at other translations when I understand that "zera" means seed singular, not "b'nei" children.
You know and I know that seed can refer to children. Honestly, what are you even debating? That seed doesnt mean descendants?
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text> Seed is even more clearer. Because seed = blood.
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Gen 1:11 And God said:'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed - where is the blood here?
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Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; do you really believe this is about literal serpents?
Nope. Because the word they translated for serpent is NAKASH which means bright one. As for Genesis 1 what are you getting at? That I was telling you that everywhere seed is mentioned it refers to descendants?

Are you going to show me where JESUS said that people that believe in him are his offspring/seed/descendants?
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
First you incorrrectly use children as the translation and when I show you we can have children by adoption you change your word to offspring. I have posted above many examples of offspring that aren't physical or requiring blood.
It says offspring/seed. It doesnt say anything of children by adoption in Isaiah 53. It says he will see his seed and his days will be prolonged. So again can you show me where Jesus said that those that believe in him were his seed/offspring?
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text> Nor were his days prolonged.
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If Yeshua's days were not prolonged as you claim, then where is his body and where is there any testimony anyone saw him die or saw him buried after his resurrection?
Where is Moses' body? King David? Paul? Peter? Does that mean they were not killed? The fact is that Jesus died a premature death at 33 (so they say). Thus his days were not prolonged at all.
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#129 Feb 15, 2013
@messianic I see what you did with the seed. You went to biblecc and went to all the places where "zera" was mentioned. That wasnt my point but you knew that. My point was that IN Isaiah it isnt referring to anythign other than PHYSICAL seed. That is the context of the verse. In the other places it lets you know which is which (whether its metaphorical or literal)

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#130 Feb 15, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
The original Israelites were the family of the patriarch Jacob.
Those Israelites entered Egypt and some hundreds of years later a mixed company of peoples were called from Egypt folowing Moses, they came to be called Jews.
The names Hebrews and Jews are fairly interchangable.
Thanks for your reply. Based upon what both you and Flygerian have stated I think I understand. Not all Hebrews are Jews but a person can be a Jew and a Hebrew, but a person can be a Hebrew and a Christian.

The religion that was taught by Abraham was it the Jewish religion?
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#131 Feb 15, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
What's the difference between Torah, Old Testament, Tanakh, and Hebrew Bible? Ate they all one and the same and is the King James version the same as the Jewish old testament? I have a King James bible
Torah = the LAW
Old testament = Tanakh = Hebrew bible.

And yes the KJV and no the KJV is the same as the Jewish OT. They have the same scripture but there are mistranlsations in both. With Hebrew alot of the meaning is lost when translated in another language. One example is Isaiah 7:14 in which it says a "virgin" will give birth etc.... The Hebrew word that is actually used here is better translated to young woman instead of virgin. That is an example of the problems one can run into. Theres alot to research concerning the bible really. For instance if you googled "mistranslations in KJV" you could see where they messed up (intentionally or unintentionally) in different places.

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#132 Feb 15, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
You said that they still had to atone for their sin. I said scripture doesnt say that.
<quoted text>
20 The Lord replied,“I have forgiven them, as you asked. <quoted text>
Might as well give up on that. Its not in the law or the prophets. Just the religion of Paul
She believes at the moment but has some questions. If Im here and I see someone getting misled Imma say something. If she tells me to stop then so be it.
<quoted text>
Nowhere did you show where the TANAKH (Judaism doesnt always stand to the Torah). says that ONLY blood atones for sin. You showed where it did atone for sin.
Again if I see someone being misled that is asking for help Imma speak up. Now if that person tells me to stop then I will stop. Till then I will continue
<quoted text>
It doesnt agree with the word because there are places where sin was atoned for without the use of blood. Therefore I can conclude that blood isnt the only way to atone for sin. Especially when you read Ezekiel 33.
<quoted text>
Since when were we discussing festivals of the Hebrews? We werent. You know that already though. You said that only blood atones for sins. Which is proven wrong by the scripture Sheilaa posted and more in the bible that she/he did not.
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<quoted text> You said that they still had to atone for their sin. I said scripture doesnt say that.
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All men are sinners and need atonement, this is the position of both Judaism and X-tianity. They may disagree as to what that atonement is but both recognize the need. Since this is a thread about what Jews and X-tians believe you have the burden of proof to show otherwise.
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<quoted text>
20 The Lord replied,“I have forgiven them,
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The question is forgiveness of sins which your citation confirms. You confuse forgiveness with consequences. I can have sex with animals and if G-d forgives me I may have contracted some disease that can kill me. The forgiveness may not include healing.
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<quoted text>
It doesnt agree with the word because there are places where sin was atoned for without the use of blood. Therefore I can conclude that blood isnt the only way to atone for sin.
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Can you cite one scripture that exempts YOU from atoning with blood?
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You said that only blood atones for sins. Which is proven wrong by the scripture Sheilaa posted and more in the bible that she/he did not.
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The scriptures Sheilaa gave did not exempt one from participating in Yom Kippur. She gave an example of works which only averted destruction of the city, not forgiveness of sin, she gave an example of an atonement after the numbering of the people which was a specific command given to Moses at a specific time. There is no historical support that Jews understood that they could give money to purchase forgiveness. She gave an example of gold being offered but there is no confirmation that it was accepted. If one didn't participate in Yom Kippur:
Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
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We are probably going to discover that you are a muslim, who doesn't follow the TNK, NT or have any atonement commanded by G-d.
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There is no salvation apart from Israel. Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Which just goes to prove you don't obey Yeshua either.
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#133 Feb 15, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
All men are sinners and need atonement, this is the position of both Judaism and X-tianity. They may disagree as to what that atonement is but both recognize the need. Since this is a thread about what Jews and X-tians believe you have the burden of proof to show otherwise.
You're just arguing to argue. I never said that ALL men didnt sin. I just said that they (Nineveh in the book of Job) were forgiven of their sins and did not shed blood to be forgiven. Thats why I said scripture says that they didnt have to atone for their sin after they were forgiven of their sin.
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you cite one scripture that exempts YOU from atoning with blood?
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Sure.

Ezekiel 33
‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. 14 And if I say to a wicked person,‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

Did God tell them to sacrifice and then they would be forgiven? Or did He just say to turn away from evil?
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
The scriptures Sheilaa gave did not exempt one from participating in Yom Kippur. She gave an example of works which only averted destruction of the city, not forgiveness of sin, she gave an example of an atonement after the numbering of the people which was a specific command given to Moses at a specific time. There is no historical support that Jews understood that they could give money to purchase forgiveness. She gave an example of gold being offered but there is no confirmation that it was accepted. If one didn't participate in Yom Kippur:
Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
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We are probably going to discover that you are a muslim, who doesn't follow the TNK, NT or have any atonement commanded by G-d.
Lol Yom Kippur is a FESTIVAL. It is not the same as what we're discussing. You are discussing the general atonement for sin. Which is shown to be done in a variety of ways.

But no I am not a muslim.
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
There is no salvation apart from Israel. Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Which just goes to prove you don't obey Yeshua either.
I cant follow a false prophet so no I do not obey Yeshua. I obey God Almighty though and try to stay steadfast in my obedience to Him and His commands.
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#134 Feb 15, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
Boy it looks like Hebrew needs to be learnt to really understand how the old testament was written. Can the old testament be read by both the old Hebrew and the modern Hebrew language? Is it an easy language to learn?
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I am not fluent in Hebrew but it is good to study so you don't get hoodwinked by people telling you it doesn't mean what is says or that it means HIS offspring when it doesn't.
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Modern Hebrew is not the same as biblical Hebrew.
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I would not say it is an easy language to learn, but I wouldn't discourage you from trying to know all you can about what the bible says and the context in which it was written. Since flygerian is probably a nigerian muslim, he is not qualified to give you the X-tian or Jewish understanding of the bible.
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#135 Feb 15, 2013
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
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I am not fluent in Hebrew but it is good to study so you don't get hoodwinked by people telling you it doesn't mean what is says or that it means HIS offspring when it doesn't.
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Modern Hebrew is not the same as biblical Hebrew.
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I would not say it is an easy language to learn, but I wouldn't discourage you from trying to know all you can about what the bible says and the context in which it was written. Since flygerian is probably a nigerian muslim, he is not qualified to give you the X-tian or Jewish understanding of the bible.
Why are you attacking my character? I am not a muslim nor did I say it did or did not mean "his offspring". Though the seed in that verse means the same as offspring. It doesnt mean plant seed or metaphorical seed as you try to put it. But that isnt me that translated bibles to say seed or offspring.
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#136 Feb 15, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
You're just arguing to argue. I never said that ALL men didnt sin. I just said that they (Nineveh in the book of Job) were forgiven of their sins and did not shed blood to be forgiven. Thats why I said scripture says that they didnt have to atone for their sin after they were forgiven of their sin.
<quoted text>
Sure.
Ezekiel 33
‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. 14 And if I say to a wicked person,‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.
Did God tell them to sacrifice and then they would be forgiven? Or did He just say to turn away from evil?
<quoted text>
Lol Yom Kippur is a FESTIVAL. It is not the same as what we're discussing. You are discussing the general atonement for sin. Which is shown to be done in a variety of ways.
But no I am not a muslim.
<quoted text>
I cant follow a false prophet so no I do not obey Yeshua. I obey God Almighty though and try to stay steadfast in my obedience to Him and His commands.
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<quoted text>
You're just arguing to argue. I never said that ALL men didnt sin. I just said that they (Nineveh in the book of Job) were forgiven of their sins and did not shed blood to be forgiven.
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Then you should be able to show in the text were they were forgiven. Easy enough?
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<quoted text>
Sure.
Ezekiel 33
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One cannot turn from evil and then neglect the command of the Lord at the same time. You are purposely picking and choosing verses that no Jew ever believed would exempt him from participating in Yom Kippur. That is why I say your opinion is irelevent in this forum. It doesn't align with historical evidence.
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<quoted text> ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right.
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You see that turning is not enough, they must do what is right which means every word that proceeds from the mouth of G-d.
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<quoted text>
Lol Yom Kippur is a FESTIVAL. It is not the same as what we're discussing.
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We are discussing atonement and what better example of atonement is there than the day G-d has established for atonement? How can we expect atonement when we say that the day G-d established is not needed?
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<quoted text> But no I am not a muslim.
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Then you will have no problem affirming Mohamed is a false prophet.
socci

El Dorado Springs, MO

#137 Feb 16, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
Not the temple as described in Ezekiel. So either he was a false prophet that prophesied something that did not come to pass (Deut 18) or it will come in the future. Which one do you think it is

You refer to Gog and Magog passage? This is post millennium:

Rev 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."
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God and the saints/Christians came down from heaven in New Jerusalem.

Until then Jesus is the High Priest, the Holy Temple is in Heaven.

Hebrews (KJV)

4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
7:27 Who needs not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: why it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
8:5 Who serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.

9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others;
9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#138 Feb 16, 2013
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
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<quoted text>
You're just arguing to argue. I never said that ALL men didnt sin. I just said that they (Nineveh in the book of Job) were forgiven of their sins and did not shed blood to be forgiven.
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Then you should be able to show in the text were they were forgiven. Easy enough?
Jonah 3:10
10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.

If you compare this to the Ezekiel verses I posted they were forgiven and their evil deeds were forgotten.
messianic114 wrote:
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One cannot turn from evil and then neglect the command of the Lord at the same time. You are purposely picking and choosing verses that no Jew ever believed would exempt him from participating in Yom Kippur. That is why I say your opinion is irelevent in this forum. It doesn't align with historical evidence.
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Where did I say that a "jew" should exempt himself from participating in Yom Kippur? Thats right I didnt. What I did say is that scripture shows that blood was not the only way to atone for sins.
messianic114 wrote:
You see that turning is not enough, they must do what is right which means every word that proceeds from the mouth of G-d.
Lol nice. Now why doesnt God Almighty tell them to sacrifice but just tells them to turn away and do what is right?

Psalm 40
Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; my ears You have opened; Burnt offerings and sin offerings You have not required"
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>

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We are discussing atonement and what better example of atonement is there than the day G-d has established for atonement? How can we expect atonement when we say that the day G-d established is not needed?
No one is saying that atonement is not needed. Nor did anyone say that ANIMAL (not human like you christians believe) blood did not atone for sins (at least I didnt). What I did say is that it is not the ONLY way to atone for sins. And even with blood atonement you need an altar, a temple (and not just any old temple)where the altar is, and a levite priest.

So speaking of a festival is different than speaking on the general atonement of sins. Which could be done in a variety of ways. You already know this you're just trying to argue lol
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text> But no I am not a muslim.
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Then you will have no problem affirming Mohamed is a false prophet.
No I have no problem affirming he is a false prophet. But let me ask what makes you say he is a false prophet?
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#139 Feb 16, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
You refer to Gog and Magog passage? This is post millennium:
Rev 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."
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God and the saints/Christians came down from heaven in New Jerusalem.
Until then Jesus is the High Priest, the Holy Temple is in Heaven.
Hebrews (KJV)
4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
7:27 Who needs not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: why it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
8:5 Who serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.
9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others;
9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
You do know that sacrifice is offered in the temple right? How could this be if Jesus is the final sacrifice? And if Jesus put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, then why is sin still here?
socci

El Dorado Springs, MO

#140 Feb 16, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
But you don't know about the Hebrew laws prohibiting the mixing of milk and meat?
I knew it! You're no Jew, you're a poseur.
That's why you don't know your Torah.
Deuteronomy 14:21 demands;
"You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk."
For thousands of years Hebrew priestly scholars interpret this as a separation of meat and milk at any meal.
Or in any room, ie; your dining partner can't consume dairy while you are in the same room eating meat.
So NO cheeseburger and milkshakes or pizza or beef stroganoff, baloney samwich and a glass of milk, fetuchini with sausage, etc;etc;etc.
Kosher Law tells you meat and milk (or derivatives) cannot be mixed (Deuteronomy 14:21) in the sense that meat and dairy products are not served at the same meal, served or cooked in the same utensils, or stored together.
Heaven forbid you use your meat fork to taste somebody's ice cream and cake desert!
Observant Jews have separate sets of dishes, and sometimes different kitchens, for meat and milk, and wait anywhere between one and six hours after eating meat before consuming milk products.
The milchig and fleishig utensils and dishes are the commonly referred to Yiddish delineations between dairy and meat (lit. milky and fleshy) utensils and dishes respectively.
(citation of authority ref.-
Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De'ah 87 et seq
Jewish Virtual Library Kashrut: Jewish Dietary Laws)

Pharisaical extra rules Jesus rejected. They also added extra rules to the Sabbath, then accused Jesus of breaking them.

The dietary laws remain. We are told what is clean and unclean. Milk and many meats are both clean, tho not really the most healthy thing to eat.

Pizza is alright as long as there is no swine. Swine is a scavenger like a dog.

Are you aware there is a great push today to introduce horse meat? Obama even signed an order allowing horse for human consumption. I believe this is cultural not economic.

The heathen without direction from the Creator eat anything that moves. This is why we are told those who eat the swine shall be consumed with hell fire, because they are not God's people.

Is 66:17 "They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the middle, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, said the LORD."
-
The dietary laws are to avoid scavengers and other non-foods. If God said not to mix milk and meat there would be a good reason for this and should be obeyed. But that's not what is being said in that passage.
socci

El Dorado Springs, MO

#141 Feb 16, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
You do know that sacrifice is offered in the temple right? How could this be if Jesus is the final sacrifice? And if Jesus put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, then why is sin still here?

It is God who forgives sin, not any sacrifice. The sacrificial system was symbolic of a coming Messiah - God on earth, who forgives. Those in Christ are not in sin:

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Heb.10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Gal.3:19 Why then the law?***It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made***, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
-
That is the law of Moses not God's 10C law which is forever for transgression of God's law is sin. The Christian then asks Jesus to forgive sin, not any sacrificial system.
-
Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for ever more.(Psalms 37:27)

For the LORD loves judgment, and forsakes not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.(Psalms 37:28)

The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.(Psalms 37:29)

In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.(Proverbs 12:28)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(John 3:16)

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:(Romans 2:7)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(Romans 6:23)

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.(1 Corinthians 15:54)

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death, and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:(2 Timothy 1:10)
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#142 Feb 16, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
It is God who forgives sin, not any sacrifice. The sacrificial system was symbolic of a coming Messiah - God on earth, who forgives. Those in Christ are not in sin:
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Heb.10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Gal.3:19 Why then the law?***It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made***, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
-
That is the law of Moses not God's 10C law which is forever for transgression of God's law is sin. The Christian then asks Jesus to forgive sin, not any sacrificial system.
-
Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for ever more.(Psalms 37:27)
For the LORD loves judgment, and forsakes not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.(Psalms 37:28)
The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.(Psalms 37:29)
In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.(Proverbs 12:28)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(John 3:16)
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:(Romans 2:7)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(Romans 6:23)
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.(1 Corinthians 15:54)
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death, and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:(2 Timothy 1:10)
You didnt answer my question though. Ezekiel prophesies about a third temple. He says (well his God tells him) that in this temple there will be sacrifices and burnt offerings offered. How can this be if Jesus was the final sacrifice and this temple wasnt the temple that was around at the time of Jesus?

Since: Dec 09

Chicago, IL

#143 Feb 16, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
It is God who forgives sin, not any sacrifice. The sacrificial system was symbolic of a coming Messiah - God on earth, who forgives. Those in Christ are not in sin:
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Heb.10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Gal.3:19 Why then the law?***It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made***, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
-
That is the law of Moses not God's 10C law which is forever for transgression of God's law is sin. The Christian then asks Jesus to forgive sin, not any sacrificial system.
-
Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for ever more.(Psalms 37:27)
For the LORD loves judgment, and forsakes not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.(Psalms 37:28)
The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.(Psalms 37:29)
In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.(Proverbs 12:28)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(John 3:16)
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:(Romans 2:7)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(Romans 6:23)
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.(1 Corinthians 15:54)
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death, and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:(2 Timothy 1:10)
socci: "Those in Christ are not in sin..."

WHO are you referring to as "THOSE in Christ"?
And what do you mean by "not in sin"?

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