Do Jews and Christians worship the sa...

Since: Jun 12

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#751 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
The text used the word spirit not angel
..and I gave you the definition of the word spirit and nowhere does it mention an evil entity with an independent existence that inhabits another person's body/mind

Since: Jun 12

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#752 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
What's your point?
It wasn't an independent entity

Since: Jun 12

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#753 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
You still haven't explained the reasoning of why that was "just a phrase" I understand your interpretation of it now I want to see it from scripture
See what?

Since: Jun 12

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#754 Mar 5, 2013
Fallen from heaven is a figure of speech meaning cast down from an exalted political system.This was a common phrase that was around at the time of Jesus. Jesus was prophecising about the future and the fall of the the atheistic Roman empire to Christinaity in response to the apostles positive feedback re their mission. It had nothing to do with satan being thrown out of heaven. He was basically saying that the spread of the good news would continue and would bring down the pagan Roman system. Satan was the oppositional attitude and rebellious nature that was an adversary to the truth
IamHim

Oklahoma City, OK

#755 Mar 5, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
It wasn't an independent entity
Not what 2nd chronicles shows now is it?
IamHim

Oklahoma City, OK

#756 Mar 5, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
..and I gave you the definition of the word spirit and nowhere does it mention an evil entity with an independent existence that inhabits another person's body/mind
So why don't you explain what the heck 2nd chronicles is speaking of?
IamHim

Oklahoma City, OK

#757 Mar 5, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
Fallen from heaven is a figure of speech meaning cast down from an exalted political system.This was a common phrase that was around at the time of Jesus. Jesus was prophecising about the future and the fall of the the atheistic Roman empire to Christinaity in response to the apostles positive feedback re their mission. It had nothing to do with satan being thrown out of heaven. He was basically saying that the spread of the good news would continue and would bring down the pagan Roman system. Satan was the oppositional attitude and rebellious nature that was an adversary to the truth
Yea I've seen this three times now lol can you show how everyone should come to this conclusion using the text? Probably not which is why you keep avoiding the question

Since: Jun 12

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#758 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
Yea I've seen this three times now lol can you show how everyone should come to this conclusion using the text? Probably not which is why you keep avoiding the question
Jesus stated in Luke 10:15 "and you Caperneum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades" this type of writing is along the same lines of Jesus stating that he" saw satan fall like lightning from heaven" three verses later. It is not meant to be taken literally. Caperneum was not brought down to Hades and neither was it exalted to heaven. Satan is not an evil being he is an adversary, an opponent of the true believers of the church. At that time the Roman empire was the adversary of the true believers and they were not thrown out of heaven at the time Jesus made this statement. It was a prophecy for the future not the past.

In the old testament similar quotes have been found such as in Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven" which refers to the king of Babylon, and Lamentations 2:1 "How hath the lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger"
Isaiah 14:12 it is talking about the king of Babylon . This is made clear by verse 4 when it states,“Thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say….”
In Daniel 4:3 the king exalts himself and gives himself credit for the success of Babylon. In verse 19 Daniel begins to interpret his vision to him and refers to the tree, etc., and in the 22nd verse he says,“It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.”. In Daniel 2:37-38 . The Babylonian Kingdom was the first universal kingdom that history records, and the king subdued and weakened and brought all other nations under subjection. So the reference to him who “didst weaken the nations.”

Lamentations 2:1 In relation to " ...cast down from heaven" Israel was brought down, to the lowest degree of reproach, the beauty and glory of the nation was utterly demolished , the temple destroyed.
IamHim

United States

#759 Mar 5, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus stated in Luke 10:15 "and you Caperneum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades" this type of writing is along the same lines of Jesus stating that he" saw satan fall like lightning from heaven" three verses later. It is not meant to be taken literally. Caperneum was not brought down to Hades and neither was it exalted to heaven. Satan is not an evil being he is an adversary, an opponent of the true believers of the church. At that time the Roman empire was the adversary of the true believers and they were not thrown out of heaven at the time Jesus made this statement. It was a prophecy for the future not the past.
In the old testament similar quotes have been found such as in Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven" which refers to the king of Babylon, and Lamentations 2:1 "How hath the lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger"
Isaiah 14:12 it is talking about the king of Babylon . This is made clear by verse 4 when it states,“Thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say….”
In Daniel 4:3 the king exalts himself and gives himself credit for the success of Babylon. In verse 19 Daniel begins to interpret his vision to him and refers to the tree, etc., and in the 22nd verse he says,“It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.”. In Daniel 2:37-38 . The Babylonian Kingdom was the first universal kingdom that history records, and the king subdued and weakened and brought all other nations under subjection. So the reference to him who “didst weaken the nations.”
Lamentations 2:1 In relation to " ...cast down from heaven" Israel was brought down, to the lowest degree of reproach, the beauty and glory of the nation was utterly demolished , the temple destroyed.
We know who those were referring to by the CONTEXT. Why cant you use the context of the verse in question?

In Isaiah 14:12 you went to the surrounding verses to explain what was meant

In Lamentation 2:1 you went to the surrounding verses to explain what was meant.

In Luke 10:15 you went to Lamentation 2:1 and Isaiah 14:12 to explain what was meant lol. Why?

You also still havent explained how we can get that its referring to the Roman empire using the context of Luke 10. Again, why?
IamHim

United States

#760 Mar 5, 2013
Dont forget to explain 2nd Chronicles since "spirit isnt never a being" according to you

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#761 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
So why don't you explain what the heck 2nd chronicles is speaking of?
If I knew what your were referring to I would. I have only read chronicles twice in my life and all I can remember about it is that Solomon built the temple, the queen of Sheba visited him as she had heard of his fame and there were a lot of different rulers. Who were the good ones and who were the bad ones I would not know so I would have to read it again and it is not in my plan at the moment as I work systematically through the books. So why don't you just tell me what you are referring to
IamHim

United States

#762 Mar 5, 2013
2 chronicles 18
8 Micaiah continued,“Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing on his right and on his left. 19 And the Lord said,‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
“One suggested this, and another that. 20 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said,‘I will entice him.’
“‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.
21 “‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord.‘Go and do it.’
22 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”
Same thing different story. A spirit possessed the prophets causing them to prophesy lies.

Since: Jun 12

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#763 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
We know who those were referring to by the CONTEXT. Why cant you use the context of the verse in question?
In Isaiah 14:12 you went to the surrounding verses to explain what was meant
In Lamentation 2:1 you went to the surrounding verses to explain what was meant.
In Luke 10:15 you went to Lamentation 2:1 and Isaiah 14:12 to explain what was meant lol. Why?
You also still havent explained how we can get that its referring to the Roman empire using the context of Luke 10. Again, why?
I gave you the example of Luke 10:15 to show that the verse is spoken of in a similar way to Luke 10:18. There are no verses to support Lamentations as far as I am aware but that doesn't make what was said invalid. I didn't give a supporting verse for Lamentations but you still accepted it as being so. You have not taken into account was was happening from a historical point of view.

I could ask you to prove that satan is the devil and the old dragon which you would be unable to do with supporting verses.

If you post anything else it will need to wait until tomorrow as we are going out after dinner.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#764 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
2 chronicles 18
8 Micaiah continued,“Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing on his right and on his left. 19 And the Lord said,‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
“One suggested this, and another that. 20 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said,‘I will entice him.’
“‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.
21 “‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord.‘Go and do it.’
22 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”
Same thing different story. A spirit possessed the prophets causing them to prophesy lies.
I have already answered this
IamHim

United States

#765 Mar 5, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
I have already answered this
Hopefully you dont mean this
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
This does not prove that this is an evil spirit but what it does show is that God is using one of his angels to act as an adversary to bring about his plan
Because this does not answer the spirit possessing the prophets. As you said could not happen
IamHim

United States

#766 Mar 5, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
I gave you the example of Luke 10:15 to show that the verse is spoken of in a similar way to Luke 10:18. There are no verses to support Lamentations as far as I am aware but that doesn't make what was said invalid. I didn't give a supporting verse for Lamentations but you still accepted it as being so. You have not taken into account was was happening from a historical point of view.
The context supports what was said

2 Without pity the Lord has swallowed up
all the dwellings of Jacob;
in his wrath he has torn down
the strongholds of Daughter Judah.
He has brought her kingdom and its princes
down to the ground in dishonor.
Sheilaa wrote:
I could ask you to prove that satan is the devil and the old dragon which you would be unable to do with supporting verses.
If you post anything else it will need to wait until tomorrow as we are going out after dinner.
Revelation tells you that. Then again you will just twist it to say something else that the context doesnt support.

Since: Jun 12

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#767 Mar 6, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
Hopefully you dont mean this
<quoted text>
Because this does not answer the spirit possessing the prophets. As you said could not happen
The lying spirit is one of God's angels. Angels are know as ministering spirits as can be seen in Psalms 104: 4 and Hebrews 1:7.God has engaged his angel to carry out His plan which was to entice Ahab to go to war and to subsequently be killed. Ahab was one of the most wicked kings of Israel. God tells the angel to entice him and asks how he will fulfill his order. The angel states that he will go out and be a lying spirit to all of Ahab's prophets. Nowhere is there ANY mention of the prophets being possessed. It was God who put a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets as stated in verse 22. In 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "and for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" He uses their own minds and nature to bring the plan into fruition.
IamHim

Oklahoma City, OK

#768 Mar 6, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
The lying spirit is one of God's angels. Angels are know as ministering spirits as can be seen in Psalms 104: 4 and Hebrews 1:7.God has engaged his angel to carry out His plan which was to entice Ahab to go to war and to subsequently be killed. Ahab was one of the most wicked kings of Israel. God tells the angel to entice him and asks how he will fulfill his order. The angel states that he will go out and be a lying spirit to all of Ahab's prophets. Nowhere is there ANY mention of the prophets being possessed. It was God who put a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets as stated in verse 22. In 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "and for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" He uses their own minds and nature to bring the plan into fruition.
The spirit (an angel) went into the prophets causing them to lie. In other words, they were possessed. It doesnt need to say that for me to come to that conclusion.
A spirit went inside the prophets and caused them to lie. In other words a spirit caused the prophets to do something they wouldnt have otherwise.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#769 Mar 6, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
Revelation tells you that. Then again you will just twist it to say something else that the context doesnt support.
In relation to Revelation 12:9:
The great dragon is symbolic is pagan Rome it has nothing to do with a spiritual entity.

The Devil (false accuser) in Revelation 2:10 is directly referring to pagan Rome. Both pagan and papal Rome have been slanderers by distorting the word of God.

The old serpent was a liar who convinced Eve that the reasoning of the flesh was superior to the law and the will of God. It deceived one person. It gave expression to the mind of the flesh. The lust of the eye the fruit looked appealing, it would make one wise (the pride of life). In Exodus the rod of Moses that turned into a serpent was called a dragon.

The dragon in Revelation which was the Roman empire sought to deceive the whole known world. Dragon comes from the root word meaning to see and is associated with the lust of the eyes (power, control and wealth) So the dragon is the political expression of the same principle.

Being cast out in the earth, this term is referring to paganism being ejected from a position of authority by Christianity.

The three terms all have one thing in common and that is that they represent a system that is against God.

Just another interesting aside. If God cursed the serpent in Eden and stated that because of he had done that he would crawl on his belly and eat dust for all the days of his life how was he up walking around the earth going to ad fro in Job. Did God change his mind?

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#770 Mar 6, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
The spirit (an angel) went into the prophets causing them to lie. In other words, they were possessed. It doesnt need to say that for me to come to that conclusion.
A spirit went inside the prophets and caused them to lie. In other words a spirit caused the prophets to do something they wouldnt have otherwise.
No sorry I don't accept that.By putting a lying spirit in the mouth in no way indicates that they were physically possessed. It shows me that they were deluded by the angel and due to it they spoke falsely. By the angel deluding them he was able to be a lying spirit but it was the prophets that spoke the word they were not possessed. An angel is not omnipresent and cannot possess 400 prophets at once

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