Do Jews and Christians worship the sa...

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#689 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
No need to beat dead horses is there? I mean I already showed you Job 1 and 2 but you twisted it to meaning a man somehow even though one wouldnt automatically get that from the text.
Besides dont you believe in the NT? Why would you ignore the many references to the Devil in the NT if you believe in it? If you say its a "Roman" or the "roman gov't" how could we ALL come to this conclusion so we know its not privately INTERPRETED?
You have not showed me that Job supports anything. Referring me to the NT does not support that there is a devil in the spiritual sense. Nowhere in the old testament is there any evidence of a cosmic satan
IamHim

United States

#690 Mar 5, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
You have not showed me that Job supports anything. Referring me to the NT does not support that there is a devil in the spiritual sense. Nowhere in the old testament is there any evidence of a cosmic satan
Than why didnt you continue with all those references I posted a long time ago and explain why each one wasnt a spiritual being but a man or whatever concoction you made up? lol

Dont worry I'll post them again and maybe you could answer them using the context. Meaning explaining how we ALL could come to the conclusion you do?
IamHim

United States

#691 Mar 5, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
Show me that Jesus wasn't resurrected if he took on sin for all of us. Show me were he sinned
What do you mean show you Jesus wasnt resurrected? All you have is the NT that also adds paganism to Jesus while also twisting prophecies in the manner you twist scripture.(To fit their stance or their belief on what Jesus was supposed to be)

Look up where Jesus picked corn on the sabbath and then go to Numbers 15. Im not going to waste my finger typing explaining it because you will just twist it to fit your belief. To be more specific, read from Numbers 15:32 onward. AFTER you read where Jesus picked corn on the sabbath.
IamHim

United States

#692 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Who are the pharisees speaking of here?

Matthew 9
33 And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke. The crowd was amazed and said,“Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.”
34 But the Pharisees said,“It is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons.”

Matthew 12
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said,“It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

What are demons and who is this satan that Jesus saw fall from heaven?

Luke 10
17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said,“Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”18 He replied,“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Why is the devil singular yet EVERYONE'S enemy that is a believer according to Peter?

1 Peter 5
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

What did Jesus mean by this?

Revelation 3
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

Matthew 8
28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[c] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted.“Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus,“If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

32 He said to them,“Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men

I have more after this ;)
Maybe you can try explaining these USING THE CONTEXT. That means not saying "demon here represents" blah blah blah and leaving it at. It means saying "demon here represents" blah blah blah "because here EARLIER IN THE CHAPTER... etc..." In other words, showing how the verses before support your interpretation. If you can do that, then that means your interpretation is the correct one. If you cannot and have to resort to you just making statements with no support from scripture, that means you are incorrect. Which anyone with eyes sees. YOU may not believe in demons. YOU may not believe in Satan a being that God Almighty created. But to say that the bible does not in ANYWAY even INDICATE of Satan is being dishonest. But I can tell from our convos that you are not looking for truth but looking for confirmation bias. In other words, seeking to solidify beliefs you already have. Why? IDK. But ignore that and explain (using the context) these your interpretation of these verses
IamHim

United States

#693 Mar 5, 2013
Greek word used for demon in the NT

Daimonia
1.
-the divine power, deity, divinity
-a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men
-evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek...

Daimonia
2.
-the divine power, deity, divinity
-a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men
-evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/gwview.cgi...

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#694 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you mean show you Jesus wasnt resurrected? All you have is the NT that also adds paganism to Jesus while also twisting prophecies in the manner you twist scripture.(To fit their stance or their belief on what Jesus was supposed to be)
Look up where Jesus picked corn on the sabbath and then go to Numbers 15. Im not going to waste my finger typing explaining it because you will just twist it to fit your belief. To be more specific, read from Numbers 15:32 onward. AFTER you read where Jesus picked corn on the sabbath.
According to you and your posts everyone twists the scripture but you. All I need is the NT plus the prophecies from the old testament that prophesise what would happen to Jesus.

Psalm 16:10 For thy wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption

Psalm 34:20 He keepeth all his bones, not one of them is broken

Zechariah 12:10,...they will look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son.....

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief, when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.....

In relation to the corn it was the apostles who picked the corn not Jesus, but Jesus made the point that in the case of necessity, the ceremonial law could be overuled as it was by David Refer to 1 Samuel21:1-6

Cisco Kid

Jamestown, CA

#695 Mar 5, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Cisco. Sorry it has taken so long for me to answer I have only been discharged today from hospital.Hi Cisco. A triune godhead makes no sense. Why is it not mentioned in the old testament if it is of God? When Jesus walked the earth there was no mention of a triune God. It has been inserted in to the Greek interpretation of the new testament based on the Persian and hellenistic beliefs.
Hope you are doing well. Being in hospital is no fun.

We know God as The Father from The Old Testament, God's holy Spirit was the medium for creation, spoke through the prophets and led Moses and the Israelites through the desert.

Mary conceived Jesus via God's holy Spirit.

Jesus does not reveal the Holy Spirit fully, until he himself has been glorified through his Death and Resurrection.

Nevertheless, little by little he alludes to him even in his teaching of the multitudes, as when he reveals that his own flesh will be food for the life of the world.
He also alludes to the Spirit in speaking to Nicodemus, to the Samaritan woman, and to those who take part in the feast of Tabernacles.
To his disciples he speaks openly of the Spirit in connection with prayer and with the witness they will have to bear.
(Jn 6:27, 51, 62-63. Jn 3:5-8. Jn 4:10, 14, 23-24. Jn 7:37-39. Lk 11:13. Mt 10:19-20)

Only when the hour has arrived for his glorification does Jesus promise the coming of the Holy Spirit, since his Death and Resurrection will fulfill the promise made to the fathers.
(Jn 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; 17:26)

The Spirit of truth, the other Paraclete, will be given by the Father in answer to Jesus' prayer; he will be sent by the Father in Jesus' name; and Jesus will send him from the Father's side, since he comes from the Father.
The Holy Spirit will come and we shall know him; he will be with us for ever; he will remain with us.

On the day of Pentecost when the seven weeks of Easter had come to an end, Christ's Passover is fulfilled in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, manifested, given, and communicated as a divine person: of his fullness, Christ, the Lord, pours out the Spirit in abundance.
(Acts 2:33-36)


On that day, the Holy Trinity is fully revealed.

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#696 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe you can try explaining these USING THE CONTEXT. That means not saying "demon here represents" blah blah blah and leaving it at. It means saying "demon here represents" blah blah blah "because here EARLIER IN THE CHAPTER... etc..." In other words, showing how the verses before support your interpretation. If you can do that, then that means your interpretation is the correct one. If you cannot and have to resort to you just making statements with no support from scripture, that means you are incorrect. Which anyone with eyes sees. YOU may not believe in demons. YOU may not believe in Satan a being that God Almighty created. But to say that the bible does not in ANYWAY even INDICATE of Satan is being dishonest. But I can tell from our convos that you are not looking for truth but looking for confirmation bias. In other words, seeking to solidify beliefs you already have. Why? IDK. But ignore that and explain (using the context) these your interpretation of these verses
I will go through each verse so you can be educated but why are you using the NT and no OT scriptures. You do realise that the NT scriptures have been hellenized don't you? Nowhere in the old testament has a second "god" in the form of a satan been documented

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#697 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
Greek word used for demon in the NT
Daimonia
1.
-the divine power, deity, divinity
-a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men
-evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek...
Daimonia
2.
-the divine power, deity, divinity
-a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men
-evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/gwview.cgi...
Hellenization!!!!!!!!!!
IamHim

United States

#699 Mar 5, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
According to you and your posts everyone twists the scripture but you.
Nope just you.
Sheilaa wrote:
Psalm 16:10 For thy wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption
Not about Jesus
Sheilaa wrote:
Psalm 34:20 He keepeth all his bones, not one of them is broken
Zechariah 12:10,...they will look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son.....
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief, when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.....
None of these are about Jesus. Use the OT (not the NT) to determine what are messianic prophecies and what arent
Sheilaa wrote:
In relation to the corn it was the apostles who picked the corn not Jesus, but Jesus made the point that in the case of necessity, the ceremonial law could be overuled as it was by David Refer to 1 Samuel21:1-6
You're right Jesus was not picking corn
IamHim

United States

#700 Mar 5, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
Hellenization!!!!!!!!!!
Dont believe in the NT then!!!!!!!!!
IamHim

United States

#701 Mar 5, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
I will go through each verse so you can be educated but why are you using the NT and no OT scriptures. You do realise that the NT scriptures have been hellenized don't you? Nowhere in the old testament has a second "god" in the form of a satan been documented
I already showed you where Saul was sent an evil spirit. I can also show you where a spirit was in the prophets causing them to prophesy lies. But I understand you will twist these into meaning something else so why bother?

There is NO REASON for you to believe in the NT quite frankly lol. You twist what it says to make it go in line with what you believe. Dont you think it would be much easier to just ignore it all? lol

There are other gods mentioned in the OT. You know that right?

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#702 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
In the torah and the prophets the doctrine of Satan teaches that either man is the adversary or is a descriptive term for the force that God sends. Strongs #7854 (Adversary)
For a start how can the bible in 2 Samuel 24 say "God" caused David to number the tribes of Israel and yet in 1 Chronicles 21 say "Satan" incited David to number the tribes of Israel. Who was it? It can't be both right?
Why did Jesus called Peter Satan? He said "get behind me Satan"? He did not mean that Peter was a supernatural being did he? How could Jesus in
one breath call Peter Satan and in the next breath say he had seen Satan fall from heaven. Did Peter fall from heaven? What the Greeks have done is taken metaphorical statements and turned them into literal ones and this is how they were able to devise a satanology doctrine.
Satan allegedly entered Judas. Did Peter enter Judas? NO!!! Jesus never lied or sinned so either Peter was Satan or Jesus was lying. Now if Peter was Satan then we need to look and see what Jesus meant. What Jesus meant was that Peter was being an adversary.

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Who are the pharisees speaking of here?

They are not speaking to anyone it is Jesus who is talking. He is referring to sin and in particular the Jews who were teaching false doctrine

Matthew 9
33 And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke. The crowd was amazed and said,“Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.”
34 But the Pharisees said,“It is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons.”

A: Jesus got "rid of the demon" by restoring the man's speech. It was a physical problem not a supernatural demon that Jesus cured

Matthew 12
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said,“It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
What are demons and who is this satan that Jesus saw fall from heaven?
A:
Demons are part of the doctrine that was incorporated into the doctrine of satanology by the hellenistic Jews who had been influenced by Persian and Greek beliefs

Luke 10
17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said,“Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”18 He replied,“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

A: This verse is using metaphorical language. Satan no more fell from a celestial place called heaven than did Capernaum fall from the geological location known as heaven. Luke 10:15 And thou Capernaum, which are exalted to heaven, shall be thrust down to hell. Fallen from heaven is a figure of speech meaning cast down from an exalted political position. In this instance it was referring to the collapse of the Roman empire

Why is the devil singular yet EVERYONE'S enemy that is a believer according to Peter?
A: not sure what you mean here

1 Peter 5
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

To be continued

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#703 Mar 5, 2013
What did Jesus mean by this?

It is personification of a person's or others evil inclinations to do the wrong thing and how we are able to tempt others or ourselves

Revelation 3
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

In this verse Jesus is indicating that he has the power to cause opponents of the church to acknowledge the power of truth. He is describing the non believers as slanderers and adversaries and he condemns Pergamos amd Thyatira for retaining fellowship with those who are opposed to the truth . God gave them up to their own delusions. Polycarp was an example of a believer who was burnt at the stake for his beliefs

Matthew 8
28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[c] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted.“Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

A:The lunatics (insane) recognized Jesus either from some previous exposure to him or by some way of recognition which is not disclosed . In first century Aramaic/Hebrew culture it was common practice after dinner for men to seek entertainment. One form of entertainment was for men to torment lunatics who hung around the cemetery. There were also travelling exorcists who used to try and exorcise the lunatics by torturing them.

30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus,“If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

A: Nonsense talk by lunatics who were not in a normal state of mind but who obviously believed in" demons"

32 He said to them,“Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men.
If the pigs drowned then the demons would have escaped from the pigs and bene free to inhabit others

In George M. Lamsa’s book,“New Testament Light,” which gives the Aramaic view and understanding of idioms used in the NT.“The Lunatics and the Swine”(Mark 8:31), he states that,“‘Cast out’ is an Aramaic phrase which means to restore to sanity, to remove the cause which produces insanity…”(pp. 64-66).

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#704 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
I already showed you where Saul was sent an evil spirit. I can also show you where a spirit was in the prophets causing them to prophesy lies. But I understand you will twist these into meaning something else so why bother?
There is NO REASON for you to believe in the NT quite frankly lol. You twist what it says to make it go in line with what you believe. Dont you think it would be much easier to just ignore it all? lol
There are other gods mentioned in the OT. You know that right?
The evil spirit is just Saul's own bad attitude—his ugly disposition of mind—that he manifested over and over again. I do believe in the NT but I believe it has to be read in the context of what the Hebrews believed in their day and not taken for the interpretations that have been written by Jews who have been influenced by the Greek beliefs

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#705 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope just you.
<quoted text>
Not about Jesus
<quoted text>
None of these are about Jesus. Use the OT (not the NT) to determine what are messianic prophecies and what arent
<quoted text>
You're right Jesus was not picking corn
On other christian forums you have stated that others have twisted the scriptures give me time and I will find your quotes

If the pslam qoute is not about Jesus who is it about?

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#706 Mar 5, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
Dont believe in the NT then!!!!!!!!!
I believe that a lot of words in the NT have been influenced by Jews who had been exposed to Greek and Persian mythology. Words such as satan, demon and devil are examples. Satan in the true sense of the word means adversary nothing more.

dollarsbill

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#707 Mar 5, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
The evil spirit is just Saul's own bad attitude—his ugly disposition of mind—that he manifested over and over again. I do believe in the NT but I believe it has to be read in the context of what the Hebrews believed in their day and not taken for the interpretations that have been written by Jews who have been influenced by the Greek beliefs
Paul called you "ignorant". You are delivered unto Satan in Jesus' Name.

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#708 Mar 5, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Hope you are doing well. Being in hospital is no fun.
We know God as The Father from The Old Testament, God's holy Spirit was the medium for creation, spoke through the prophets and led Moses and the Israelites through the desert.
Mary conceived Jesus via God's holy Spirit.
Jesus does not reveal the Holy Spirit fully, until he himself has been glorified through his Death and Resurrection.
Nevertheless, little by little he alludes to him even in his teaching of the multitudes, as when he reveals that his own flesh will be food for the life of the world.
He also alludes to the Spirit in speaking to Nicodemus, to the Samaritan woman, and to those who take part in the feast of Tabernacles.
To his disciples he speaks openly of the Spirit in connection with prayer and with the witness they will have to bear.
(Jn 6:27, 51, 62-63. Jn 3:5-8. Jn 4:10, 14, 23-24. Jn 7:37-39. Lk 11:13. Mt 10:19-20)
Only when the hour has arrived for his glorification does Jesus promise the coming of the Holy Spirit, since his Death and Resurrection will fulfill the promise made to the fathers.
(Jn 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; 17:26)
The Spirit of truth, the other Paraclete, will be given by the Father in answer to Jesus' prayer; he will be sent by the Father in Jesus' name; and Jesus will send him from the Father's side, since he comes from the Father.
The Holy Spirit will come and we shall know him; he will be with us for ever; he will remain with us.
On the day of Pentecost when the seven weeks of Easter had come to an end, Christ's Passover is fulfilled in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, manifested, given, and communicated as a divine person: of his fullness, Christ, the Lord, pours out the Spirit in abundance.
(Acts 2:33-36)
On that day, the Holy Trinity is fully revealed.
Thanks for your kind thoughts Cisco.
I recognize God as one. His holy spirit, I believe is his power not part of a triune Godhead and Jesus is God's only begotten son. There are many verses which support my belief that Jesus is not God some being:

The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16)
Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37)
Jesus has faith in God.(Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
Jesus prays to God.(John 17:1-3)
Jesus is a servant of God.(Acts 3:13)
Jesus does not know things God knows.(Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
Jesus worships God.(John 4:22)
Jesus has one who is God to him.(Revelation 3:12)
Jesus is in subjection to God.(1 Corinthians 15:28)
Jesus' head is God.(1 Corinthians 11:1)
Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God.(Hebrews 5:7)
Jesus is given lordship by God.(Acts 2:36)
Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
Jesus is made high priest by God.(Hebrews 5:10)
Jesus is given authority by God.(Philippians 2:9)
Jesus is given kingship by God.(Luke 1:32,33)
Jesus is given judgment by God.(Acts 10:42)

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#709 Mar 5, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
Paul called you "ignorant". You are delivered unto Satan in Jesus' Name.
If he called me ignorant I'd sure like to know what he called you. Do you get off by offending people?

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