Do Jews and Christians worship the sa...

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#41 Feb 13, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
How about you show us from the other side of the bible how Hebrews reject the "LORD" that appeared to Moses, Abraham, among other HEBREWS?
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Isn't that the history of the Israelites? Complaining, disobeying, killing the prophets?
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What in the bible would give you confidence in the understanding of Israel?

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#42 Feb 13, 2013
Steonaer wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll combine the timothy and Hebrews verse..
I acknowledge that some manuscripts read 'God' at 1 Timothy 3:16. But these variants are few and late... Many of the best and earliest readings simply say 'he'. Many scholars have realized this, and TRINITARIAN TRANSLATORS THEMSELVES have corrected the reading to align with the preponderance of evidence. Consider how the following trinitarian versions have rendered it..
"He appeared in a
body" (NIV)
"He who was manifested in
the flesh" (ASV)
"He who was revealed in
the flesh" (NASB)
"He was manifested in the flesh" (RSV)
"Which was manifested in
the flesh" (Douey-Rheims)
"Who was manifested in
the flesh" (NAB)"
As for the Heb. 1:2 verse notice that the actual word rendered in the KJV is not derived from the proper and normal word for the world/universe ''kosmos'' but from ''aion'', properly denoting an age, dispensation or indefinite era of time. Thus, as weymouth translates it, the correct reading should be 'the ages'. It is the ages of the world to come which is under discussion (Hebrews 2:5). It is by him that God has created these ages of that world. Remember that these things already exist in God's foreordination (Romans 4:17).
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<quoted text> Many of the best and earliest readings simply say 'he'.
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Can you document which are the many and earliest manuscripts you are refering to?
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#43 Feb 13, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Who is "WE"?
Are you Legion?
The Hebrews. Or the ones you call "jews"
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Why are you contained to The Old Testament?
That is just the first part of the reality.
God appeared in many and varied ways to mankind in the Old Testament, such as cloud and light.
These two images occur together in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
In the theophanies of the Old Testament, the cloud, now obscure, now luminous, reveals the living and saving God, while veiling the transcendence of his glory.
On the mountain of Transfiguration, the Spirit in the "cloud came and overshadowed" Jesus, Moses and Elijah, Peter, James and John, and "a voice came out of the cloud, saying,‘This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!'.
Lk 9:34-35
The importance of the context the mysterious episode of Jesus' Transfiguration takes place on a high mountain, before three witnesses chosen by himself: Peter, James, and John.
Jesus' face and clothes become dazzling with light, and Moses and Elijah appear, speaking "of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem."
A cloud covers him and a voice from heaven says:
"This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!" For a moment Jesus discloses his divine glory, confirming Peter's confession. He also reveals that he will have to go by the way of the cross at Jerusalem in order to "enter into his glory."
Moses and Elijah had seen God's glory on the Mountain; the Law and the Prophets had announced the Messiah's sufferings.
Christ's Passion is the will of the Father: the Son acts as God's servant; the cloud indicates the presence of the Holy Spirit.
"The whole Trinity appeared: the Father in the voice; the Son in the man; the Spirit in the shining cloud."
I suggest you not only take heed of the three witnesses but also The Word of The Lord.
Wow all these words and you didnt respond to ANYTHING I said. But I'll answer your question even though you ignored mine. Im confined to the OT because that is what was given to Israel. The NT was not. So now are you going to answer my questions? Or are you going to ignore them?
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#44 Feb 13, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
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Isn't that the history of the Israelites? Complaining, disobeying, killing the prophets?
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What in the bible would give you confidence in the understanding of Israel?
The prophets have nothing to do with Israel's actions. Therefore if we have what the prophets said and taught or at least what God Almighty wanted us to know in the OT, why would I go off anything else?

So maybe you can answer my question? Why would God Almighty reveal Himself to Israel as ONE then send Jesus to say that He's actually THREE IN ONE and expect Israel to accept this prophet? Especially when you see Deuteronomy 13 says about a false prophet that leads to a different god that their (Israel's) fathers NEVER KNEW. So in short to show that this is the same god, you would hae to show where Israel's God is ONE in THREE. You do this by going to the OT not the NT./end rant
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#45 Feb 13, 2013
Heres my questions Cisco

1. Where is God Almighty described as ONE in THREE in the OT? OR did He leave that out when sp;eaking to the Hebrews?

2. If God Almighty did not tell the Hebrews that He is ONE in THREE, then why would He expect them to accept a prophet that later comes and tells them this? When we read in Deuteronomy 13 that the prophet that leads to a god Israel's fathers never knew that the prophet should be put to death?

3. If Jesus whole coming was based on him coming to die for everyone's sins then why doesnt the OT tells us about the messiah doing this? Sure you'll probably point to Isaiah 53 though the servant in Isaiah is named in the book of Isaiah several times, is there any CONCRETE place where this is stated?

These are questions I pose to you. Not because I do not know the answer but to get you to think about what you're saying while at the same time answering my post :)

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#46 Feb 13, 2013
Ant wrote:
Jesus is NOT God. The whole notion was started by Christians long ago to make him equal to God.
-He prayer to the father
-He tells us to pray to the father
-He said he is not greater that the father
-He ascended to the right hand side of the father
-Jesus said in Matthew 28, all power and authority has been given to him, so WHO GAVE HIM THAT POWER AND AUTHORITY
-No one knows the return of the son of man including him, only God himself knows the second coming
God is YAH, YAHWEH, YAHUWAH
Jesus is Yeshua, Yahoshua, etc...which means YAH is salvation
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<quoted text> He prayer to the father
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This wouldn't eliminate him as G-d except if you define G-d as one person/emanation.
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<quoted text> He tells us to pray to the father
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This wouldn't eliminate him as G-d even if you define G-d as one person/emanation because you could be a modalist.
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<quoted text> He said he is not greater that the father
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This wouldn't eliminate him as G-d even if you define G-d as one person/emanation because you could be a modalist.
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<quoted text> He ascended to the right hand side of the father
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The father doesn't have hands so I can't see your point.
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Jesus said in Matthew 28, all power and authority has been given to him, so WHO GAVE HIM THAT POWER AND AUTHORITY.
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If Yeshua is not G-d, then you have made him the supreme authority in the universe since he now has ALL power.
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<quoted text> No one knows the return of the son of man including him, only God himself knows the second coming
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This is your best argument, but I would say that as the Son of man, he didn't know. If as the Son, he relinquished omniscience would that mean he was not G-d? If so, if the Father relinqueshes ALL power has he become "not G-d"?
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How many creators are there? In the verses below we have two claims to being the creator.
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Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
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Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
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Either one of them is not true or the G-d of the TNK is the Son of the NT or they did it together and they both are the creator.
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Since we have other NT texts that tell us the Messiah is G-d and Is 9:6, and the early church fathers we have three witnesses to this doctrine. What witnesses do you have to the contrary? Inferences from scripture do not count as the witness to the affirmative are not inferences.
Frank

Clinton, NC

#47 Feb 13, 2013
Ya know, I've decided that the xtians are completely right!
I mean, it makes perfectly good sense!
G-d is one in three and three in one!

He became man, prayed to Himself, told the people that none but G-d is good...and then he suicided himself on the cross for our sins, all the while calling out to himself. "my Father, why have you forsaken me"?

But of course G-d couldn't just forgive us. NO! That would be too easy! The Creator of the universe and the laws which govern it had to commit suicide! That's it!

Ain't a mother****** in here whom can criticize me for my beliefs cause yall believe that G-d killed himself for our "sins", lol.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#48 Feb 14, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you are saying the Bible contradicts itself? It says Jesus is God who came down as earlier posted. Jesus himself said he was the "I Am" who was before Abraham.
Or maybe you just fail to understand the Godhead.
The Father is God
Jesus is God
The Holy Spirit is God
The THREE are all ONE
I disagree with you, how can three equal one? Nowhere in the bible does it state that Jesus is God. In fact Jesus stated that God was greater than all. How can God die, and yet Jesus died? How can God be tempted when he is unable to be tempted, and yet Jesus was tempted? You need to look at the true translations in Greek in order to appreciate the truth. The bible has been translated by people who believed in the trinity and who came from a hellenistic background. They twisted the scriptures to suit the church traditions and paganism. When Jesus was alive he taught in the Jewish temples, he was brought up as a Jew and believed in ONE GOD not three. His family
kept all the traditional Jewish holidays etc etc. How far we have strayed from the true teachings as taught by Jesus!!!!!!

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#49 Feb 14, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
Where is God Almighty described as ONE in THREE in the OT? OR did He leave that out when sp;eaking to the Hebrews?

A:Jesus is not part of a trinity and has never stated he was, anywhere in the bible

2. If God Almighty did not tell the Hebrews that He is ONE in THREE, then why would He expect them to accept a prophet that later comes and tells them this? When we read in Deuteronomy 13 that the prophet that leads to a god Israel's fathers never knew that the prophet should be put to death?

A:Where has Jesus stated this?
Jesus never claims that he is three in one

3. If Jesus whole coming was based on him coming to die for everyone's sins then why doesnt the OT tells us about the messiah doing this? Sure you'll probably point to Isaiah 53 though the servant in Isaiah is named in the book of Isaiah several times, is there any CONCRETE place where this is stated?

A:The Messiah Will Die As A Sin Offering

Isaiah 53:5-6, 8, 12 –“But He was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on Him the guilt and sins of us all. From prison and trial they led Him away to His death. But who among the people realized that He was dying for their sins – that He was suffering their punishment? I will give Him the honors of One who is mighty and great, because He exposed Himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners.”

Psalm 35:11 –“Malicious witnesses testify against me. They accuse me of things I don’t even know about.”

Isaiah 53:7-8a –“He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet He never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, He did not open His mouth. From prison and trial they led Him away to His death.”

The Messiah Will Be Raised From The Dead

Psalm 16:10 –“For You will not leave my soul among the dead or allow Your Godly One to rot in the grave.”

Psalm 30:3 –“You brought me up from the grave, O Lord. You kept me from falling into the pit of death.”
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#50 Feb 14, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>

A:Jesus is not part of a trinity and has never stated he was, anywhere in the bible
Christians believe in the trinity. Not all of course but the majority I would say. And thats what this thread is about. Otherwise I agree that Jesus never claimed to be God Almighty or to be part of a trinity.
Sheilaa wrote:
A:Where has Jesus stated this?
Jesus never claims that he is three in one
Same as my last answer. But note that this was posed to someone that believes in the trinity. NOT YOU.
Sheilaa wrote:
A:The Messiah Will Die As A Sin Offering
Isaiah 53:5-6, 8, 12 –“But He was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on Him the guilt and sins of us all. From prison and trial they led Him away to His death. But who among the people realized that He was dying for their sins – that He was suffering their punishment? I will give Him the honors of One who is mighty and great, because He exposed Himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners.”
Psalm 35:11 –“Malicious witnesses testify against me. They accuse me of things I don’t even know about.”
Isaiah 53:7-8a –“He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet He never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, He did not open His mouth. From prison and trial they led Him away to His death.”
The Messiah Will Be Raised From The Dead
Psalm 16:10 –“For You will not leave my soul among the dead or allow Your Godly One to rot in the grave.”
Psalm 30:3 –“You brought me up from the grave, O Lord. You kept me from falling into the pit of death.”
Those Psalms are about David. Not Jesus.

As for Isaiah 53; the servant was named at least 5 times in the book of Isaiah. The servant is Israel not a future messiah. Well that is if you believe the bible is to be read in CONTEXT and not just cherrypicked to suit particular needs =/

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#51 Feb 14, 2013
Frank wrote:
Ya know, I've decided that the xtians are completely right!
I mean, it makes perfectly good sense!
G-d is one in three and three in one!
He became man, prayed to Himself, told the people that none but G-d is good...and then he suicided himself on the cross for our sins, all the while calling out to himself. "my Father, why have you forsaken me"?
But of course G-d couldn't just forgive us. NO! That would be too easy! The Creator of the universe and the laws which govern it had to commit suicide! That's it!
Ain't a mother****** in here whom can criticize me for my beliefs cause yall believe that G-d killed himself for our "sins", lol.
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I'm glad to see you are starting to see the light in that a unity by definition involves more than one. But you seem to be having a issue with who killed Yeshua. Although as G-d he was fully awareof what was going to happen, we cannot shift the blame from humanity. It was human sin that Yeshua paid for and it was humanity (Jews and Gentiles working in concert) that made the decision to kill him. Therefore we cannot correctly term it suicide. It was a suicide mission but he is not responsible for his own death.
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Then you seem to regress when you say he called out to himself. As a different emanation/person he wasn't calling out to himself. You see even though he said the Father and I are one, he didn't mean identical or without seperate wills, he meant a unity. Yeshua deferred to the will of the Father in Gethsemene. If they only had one mind then Yeshua wouldn't have said "not my will but yours".
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Additionally you seem to have a problem with the justice of G-d. If G-d were to just forgive us then were would the justice be? If Hitler is allowed into heaven will that be just? For justice to be done blood must be spilt (for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin). And the sacrifice must be worthy of the sin forgiven. Since Yeshua paid for ALL sins throughout ALL time then he had to be a special sacrifice. I contend that only G-d is worthy to be the sacrifice for so many sins. Also if G-d didn't pay the price for our sins then Yeshua is the one who deserves the glory, for it was him who voluntarily died in our place. Certainly we recognize that G-d will share the glory with no one else so it must be G-d who died in our place for him to get the glory.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#52 Feb 14, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Christians believe in the trinity. Not all of course but the majority I would say. And thats what this thread is about. Otherwise I agree that Jesus never claimed to be God Almighty or to be part of a trinity.
<quoted text>
Same as my last answer. But note that this was posed to someone that believes in the trinity. NOT YOU.
<quoted text>
Those Psalms are about David. Not Jesus.
As for Isaiah 53; the servant was named at least 5 times in the book of Isaiah. The servant is Israel not a future messiah. Well that is if you believe the bible is to be read in CONTEXT and not just cherrypicked to suit particular needs =/
What do you believe?

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#53 Feb 14, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Christians believe in the trinity. Not all of course but the majority I would say. And thats what this thread is about. Otherwise I agree that Jesus never claimed to be God Almighty or to be part of a trinity.
<quoted text>
Same as my last answer. But note that this was posed to someone that believes in the trinity. NOT YOU.
<quoted text>
Those Psalms are about David. Not Jesus.
As for Isaiah 53; the servant was named at least 5 times in the book of Isaiah. The servant is Israel not a future messiah. Well that is if you believe the bible is to be read in CONTEXT and not just cherrypicked to suit particular needs =/
Who testified against David?
In relation to psalm 16 David is still in the grave/hell and he was corrupt.

In relation to Isaiah who is the servant you are referring to if it is not Jesus?

Scripture interprets scripture so please given reasons to support your claims

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#54 Feb 14, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
Completely different. Christians worship a man while the HEBREWS worship (or at least were supposed to) worship the God of their fathers. The God that appeared to the man Abraham. COMPLETE AND UTTER DIFFERENCE
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No not all Christians worship a man!!! Some honour Jesus and acknowledge his mission but worship God

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#55 Feb 14, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Christians believe in the trinity. Not all of course but the majority I would say. And thats what this thread is about. Otherwise I agree that Jesus never claimed to be God Almighty or to be part of a trinity.
<quoted text>
Same as my last answer. But note that this was posed to someone that believes in the trinity. NOT YOU.
<quoted text>
Those Psalms are about David. Not Jesus.
As for Isaiah 53; the servant was named at least 5 times in the book of Isaiah. The servant is Israel not a future messiah. Well that is if you believe the bible is to be read in CONTEXT and not just cherrypicked to suit particular needs =/
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I'm having a problem understanding your statement. Are you saying that David's body did not rot in the grave and that he really wasn't buried in a tomb. It seems to me that this what those Psalms tell us of the object.
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As to the identity of the servant, majority opinion throughout the centuries is that this is the Messiah. What Jewish sages do you cite to say this is not the Messiah?
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If you want to read in context we can start in the beginning of Isaiah to see what G-d thinks of his servant who he names.
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Isa 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
Isa 1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Isa 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
Isa 1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
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How can we reconcile the description of this servant with the servant of Is 53?
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Conclusion:
1. You cite nothing but your opinion in this matter.
2. It is in opposition to traditional Jewish and X-tian understanding.
3. The explanation of David as the object of the quoted Psalms is in contradiction to what we know to be true, that David is dead and buried, and that his flesh has rotted away.
4. The descriptions of the servants in Isaiah are the antithesis of each other.
5. It seems you have done what you claim others have and that is cherrypick Israel as G-d's servant even though it doesn't match the description of the servant in Is 53.
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#56 Feb 14, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
Who testified against David?
In relation to psalm 16 David is still in the grave/hell and he was corrupt.
In relation to Isaiah who is the servant you are referring to if it is not Jesus?
Scripture interprets scripture so please given reasons to support your claims
How was David in the grave in Psalm 16? And if this is true (I see no proof of it but maybe you can provide something :) what in the context makes this apply to Jesus? Not just saying "it can fit him!" but using the context to support it.

Have you read the book of Isaiah? If so you should already know what I am talking about

Isaiah 44:1
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!

Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.

Isaiah 48:20
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim
it, send it out to the end of the earth; say,“The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”

Isaiah 49:3
And he said to me,“You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

Theres some just from the book of Isaiah. I dont even think thats all thats in Isaiah but I can bring some from other books as well. Lets see Isaiah 53 though

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

Did Jesus see his offspring? Did Jesus see his days prolonged? No to both of these. Now what about Israel? Yes. Their offspring is still here and they are now a nation again so their days have been prolonged. This is what you wanted correct? ;)
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#57 Feb 14, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>.
No not all Christians worship a man!!! Some honour Jesus and acknowledge his mission but worship God
Yea I shouldnt have generalized. Still I doubt that your god is the same as the God of the Hebrews no matter how you twist and turn it. I could be wrong of course but when I read scripture this is the only conclusion I can come to. It would be the same for you if you would be honest with what I brought (no offense and not to sound harsh)
Cisco Kid

Columbia, CA

#58 Feb 14, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Lol the FACT is we have problems with what you're providing
1. God Almighty revealed Himself as ONE to the Hebrews. Therefore if a prophet comes and says that there God is not ONE but THREE then they are to reject that prophet. Not only reject but to kill him. Because he (the prophet) is trying to lead others to another god other than the ONE their fathers worshiped. So unless you can show that God Almighty, the God of Israel, is three USING THE OLD TESTAMENT, your thoughts have no grounding to stand on.
2. As I just stated, if you believe that Jesus displays to us that the God of Israel is three then you must believe he is a false prophet and deserved to be killed. Cant get around that unless you can show where the OT shows IN PLAIN LANGUAGE that the God of Abraham was three in ONE. Remember what I said? PLAIN LANGUAGE. Not loose interpretations of verses that still wouldnt be right.
All in all, this displays that Jesus was a false prophet that lead (or at least attempted to ) Israel to other gods their FATHERS NEVER KNEW. Thus he should have been put to death as is said in their teaching
Oh, so you claim to be of the Hebrew faith.

God has been presenting himself to you folks in plural form, or three different persons, all through your Tanakh.
Haven't you been listening?

For instance, Elohim is the Old Testament common name for God, it is a plural form.
In early Hebrew the singular of the word signifying God was El, and its plural form Elohim, indicating the persons of God; The Father, The Son and Holy Spirit.

Reading the Genesis creation account and other divine events, the breath of God, the wind, represents the acvitity of the Holy Spirit.

During The Creation, to whom does God exclaim "It Is Good"?
The Son of course.
He was right there with him and the creation occured through him, read Proverbs 8:22-31.

The proper, singular name Yahweh occurs about six thousand times in the Old Testament.
The name Elohim is found 2570 times; 41 in Job; 4 in Pss.; 4 in Dan.; 2 in Hab.; 2 in Canticle of Moses (Deuteronomy 32); 1 in Prov., 1 in Is.; 1 in Paralipomenon; 1 in Neh.(II Esd.)

The theologian Lagrange (Etudes sur les religions sémitiques, Paris, 1905, p. 71) infers from Genesis 46:3 (the most mighty God of thy father), Exodus 6:3 (by the name of God Almighty), and from the fact that Elohim replaces Yah in proper names, the conclusion that Elohim was at first a proper and personal name of God.
Revelation later clarified that it was an indicator of the Triune Godhead to be fully revealed at a later time by The Messiah, The Christ Jesus.

Try as you might to put a fence around The Torah, but God knows no parameters.
Cisco Kid

Columbia, CA

#59 Feb 14, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>.
No not all Christians worship a man!!! Some honour Jesus and acknowledge his mission but worship God
Don't fool yourself.
If you don't acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Son of God, you are not a Christian.
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#60 Feb 14, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
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I'm having a problem understanding your statement. Are you saying that David's body did not rot in the grave and that he really wasn't buried in a tomb. It seems to me that this what those Psalms tell us of the object.
LMAO. Do you honestly think that David was asking God Almighty to save him from the fate that goes to ALL MEN which is death? Or do you think that David was asking his God to save Him from his enemies? I go with the latter but what about you?
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
As to the identity of the servant, majority opinion throughout the centuries is that this is the Messiah. What Jewish sages do you cite to say this is not the Messiah?
It doesnt matter what "Jewish sages" say (though there are some that say what I am). It matters what scripture says. And if the context of Isaiah 53 (which goes back chapters and chapters) tells us that God Almighty's servant is Israel. So why would Isaiah speak of the servant Israel then get to chapter 53 and suddenly switch it to a man with no notice? Also remember that there wasnt CHAPTERS and VERSES originally. So it would be like reading any other book where you just read page to page.
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
If you want to read in context we can start in the beginning of Isaiah to see what G-d thinks of his servant who he names.
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Isa 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
Isa 1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Isa 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
Isa 1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
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How can we reconcile the description of this servant with the servant of Is 53?
God Almighty was mad at Israel for their lack of faith. But that doesnt mean He rejected the position He originally set for them. Youcan read that in Jeremiah 31:35-36 and Jeremiah 33:23-26
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
Conclusion:
1. You cite nothing but your opinion in this matter.
2. It is in opposition to traditional Jewish and X-tian understanding.
3. The explanation of David as the object of the quoted Psalms is in contradiction to what we know to be true, that David is dead and buried, and that his flesh has rotted away.
4. The descriptions of the servants in Isaiah are the antithesis of each other.
5. It seems you have done what you claim others have and that is cherrypick Israel as G-d's servant even though it doesn't match the description of the servant in Is 53.
1. I cited scripture towards Shelia. How about you ask as he/she did instead of assuming.
2. Surely you understand that traditional Jews hold the thought that Isaiah 53 is referring to Israel and that Jesus is the false messiah.
3. How ridiculous is your thinking lol. David wasnt asking for God Almighty to save him from death period. But to save him from death of his enemies. You know that right?
4.This would be your opinion.
5. That would be you on the contrary that is doing that. But hey maybe you can show me another place that shows the messiah would come and die for people's sins and then that would automatically shut me up. But I already know that is the only you can say about that. Maybe you should see Ezekiel 18:20, Deut 16:24 and Exodus 32:32-36. They all oppose the notion of someone dying for another's sins

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