Do Jews and Christians worship the sa...

Since: Jan 13

Europe

#21 Feb 10, 2013
Tiny Timmie wrote:
I know we share Old Testament Scriptures, but Jews don't interpret the Old Testament as Christians do.
Christians worship Jesus of Nazareth AS GOD. The Jews don't. Christians believe in a "Triune" God. Jews do not believe in the Trinity as Christians teach.
It seems to me as a new believer that alot of the Israel-like stuff that appears on "Christian" TV and radio doesn't really go with Christian teaching.
I'm just a newbie Christian but I find this kinda confusing.
There are pockets of Christian groups who worship as God only the father, as is the ancient simple Jewish monotheism. These are unitarians. But they are severely villified as 'cults' by 'orthodox' Christians who believe in trinity.

Since: Jan 13

Europe

#22 Feb 10, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
There are three monotheistic religions in the world, Jewish, Christian and Muslim.
All three monotheisms worship the same God, The Great I AM, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah or whatever name flawed "man" assigned to The Almighty Creator.
The BIG difference is how one views the players in the reciprocal relationship between God and mankind.
God's holy Spirit spoke through the prophets, but the last human prophet was John the Baptist.
The Jews await the Messiah, but the bus has already arrived and departed from the stop outside the synagogue.
Muslims heed the prophet Mohammed, but Mo speaks without authority.
However, Jesus Christ was more than a prophet.
Jesus Christ is God come to man as man.
Fully man and fully God, Jesus redeemed our life by defeating death and with it, Satan's hold on mankind.
Don't be satisified with brand X, go for the real thing.
If it's not Jesus Christ, it's not what it takes
There ain't nothing like the real thing baby.
The God of the Koran and the true God of the bible are clearly different. Compare their words and see for yourself.

Since: Jan 13

Europe

#23 Feb 10, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>However, Jesus Christ was more than a prophet.
Jesus Christ is God come to man as man.
Fully man and fully God, Jesus redeemed our life by defeating death and with it, Satan's hold on mankind.
Actually, Jesus was God's emissary, not God himself. He was begotten as a human son on earth and commissioned to act in his God's name.
Further you go on to speak of the ''fully man, fully God'' contradiction which has been repeated so often that its proponents have become desensitized to its irrationality. To be God ontologically entails not being man. To be man ontologically entails not being God. They are contradicting existential states. A single coherent person cannot be 'fully God and fully man'.
socci

Cameron, MO

#24 Feb 10, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
If you are going to speak for the Bible then you should tell the whole truth, not part.


Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not you.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


The whole truth was told. It is you trying to predict a future salvation of some Jews at the end of time - this is not found in the word. All Israel is saved by the grafted in Gentile spiritual seed. The 144k of Rev 7 are spiritual Israel, the bride of Christ, the church, and spiritual seed.

Jesus is the vine, not Israel.

John 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches: He that stays in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.


Two Israels


1 Cor 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

Gal.3:7 Know you therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal.3:16,28,29 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.....There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal.6:15,16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and on the Israel of God.

Phil.3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God:


Not selling any denomination but this video correctly shows this..

Israel Delusion
with Steve Wohlberg
www.youtube.com/watch...
socci

Cameron, MO

#25 Feb 10, 2013
Steonaer wrote:
Actually, Jesus was God's emissary, not God himself. He was begotten as a human son on earth and commissioned to act in his God's name.
Further you go on to speak of the ''fully man, fully God'' contradiction which has been repeated so often that its proponents have become desensitized to its irrationality. To be God ontologically entails not being man. To be man ontologically entails not being God. They are contradicting existential states. A single coherent person cannot be 'fully God and fully man'.

There is a Godhead as explained in his Word.

Jesus preexisted & came down as creator God.


John 1:1-3,10,11 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came to his own, and his own received him not.

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Heb 1:1,2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Rv.22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...I Jesus have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches.

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#26 Feb 10, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
The whole truth was told. It is you trying to predict a future salvation of some Jews at the end of time - this is not found in the word. All Israel is saved by the grafted in Gentile spiritual seed. The 144k of Rev 7 are spiritual Israel, the bride of Christ, the church, and spiritual seed.
Jesus is the vine, not Israel.
John 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches: He that stays in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.
Two Israels
1 Cor 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
Gal.3:7 Know you therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal.3:16,28,29 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.....There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal.6:15,16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and on the Israel of God.
Gal.3:7 Know you therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God:
Not selling any denomination but this video correctly shows this..
Israel Delusion
with Steve Wohlberg
www.youtube.com/watch...
.
<quoted text> It is you trying to predict a future salvation of some Jews at the end of time.
.
This is your inference, I said no such thing. I said ALL Israel will be saved as the scripture tells us.
.
<quoted text> All Israel is saved by the grafted in Gentile spiritual seed.
.
Israel is not saved by the grafted in Gentile, if no Gentile ever believed in Messiah, ALL Israel would be saved. When we are grafted in we become Israel.
Gal.3:7 Know you therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
.
Israel is the olive tree, Yeshua is the vine branch, you are mixing metaphors.
.
The Israel that will be saved are those in Messiah of which there is no Jew or Greek as you posted yourself.

Since: Jan 13

Europe

#27 Feb 10, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
There is a Godhead as explained in his Word.
Jesus preexisted & came down as creator God.
John 1:1-3,10,11 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came to his own, and his own received him not.
Too many to adequately respond to all, but I'll give each a short statement of what I understand God's word to actually be saying..
First, logos in John 1:1 has fallen victim to gross mistranslation, both by trinitarians and the arians like the Jehovah's Witnesses. First off, any Greek language dictionary will tell you what a logos is... It means many things from purpose to plan, word, speech, message, reason etc etc but NONE of its meanings include a living being. No conscious entity goes by the name 'logos'. Logos is an abstract concept. God's logos which was with him is his purpose, his own intelligence and his own words spoken. Neither does logos have a masculine pronoun, since it is not a being. The logos is a 'this' and 'it', a not 'he' as mistranslated in most renditions. Second, yes, God's logos was himself... Idiomatically speaking. Just like we are our thoughts, our words, our plans etc. The logos found materialization in the man Christ Jesus, whom God created by a begettal in Mary's womb. He embodies the fulfilment of God's salvation plan and all the reason and design behind it (logos).

Since: Jan 13

Europe

#28 Feb 10, 2013
socci wrote:
1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Heb 1:1,2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
I'll combine the timothy and Hebrews verse..
I acknowledge that some manuscripts read 'God' at 1 Timothy 3:16. But these variants are few and late... Many of the best and earliest readings simply say 'he'. Many scholars have realized this, and TRINITARIAN TRANSLATORS THEMSELVES have corrected the reading to align with the preponderance of evidence. Consider how the following trinitarian versions have rendered it..
"He appeared in a
body" (NIV)
"He who was manifested in
the flesh" (ASV)
"He who was revealed in
the flesh" (NASB)
"He was manifested in the flesh" (RSV)
"Which was manifested in
the flesh" (Douey-Rheims)
"Who was manifested in
the flesh" (NAB)"
As for the Heb. 1:2 verse notice that the actual word rendered in the KJV is not derived from the proper and normal word for the world/universe ''kosmos'' but from ''aion'', properly denoting an age, dispensation or indefinite era of time. Thus, as weymouth translates it, the correct reading should be 'the ages'. It is the ages of the world to come which is under discussion (Hebrews 2:5). It is by him that God has created these ages of that world. Remember that these things already exist in God's foreordination (Romans 4:17).

Since: Jan 13

Europe

#29 Feb 10, 2013
socci wrote:
Rv.22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...I Jesus have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches.
Lets consider the other statements of this first and last... This first and last was DEAD (Revelation 1:17 and 2:8). So we cannot restrict this language to deity. Even trinitarians admit that deity didn't die. But the first and last did die. How are we to understand it? It is true that God almighty is himself the first and last (Revelation 1:8). But remember that the logos is God's personal medium by which he begins and ends things. God's word is his self-expression but not his ontological being. God is not a word or a thought.
Christ proclaims himself as the beginning and the end in IDENTIFYING himself as that abstract conceptual logos of God in a human personal realization. He doesn't have to be God to identify himself as that. He only has to be God in person himself (which he is not) or God's own logos realized in a human person (which he is).
Ant

Alpharetta, GA

#30 Feb 11, 2013
Jesus is NOT God. The whole notion was started by Christians long ago to make him equal to God.

-He prayer to the father
-He tells us to pray to the father
-He said he is not greater that the father
-He ascended to the right hand side of the father
-Jesus said in Matthew 28, all power and authority has been given to him, so WHO GAVE HIM THAT POWER AND AUTHORITY
-No one knows the return of the son of man including him, only God himself knows the second coming


God is YAH, YAHWEH, YAHUWAH
Jesus is Yeshua, Yahoshua, etc...which means YAH is salvation
socci

Cameron, MO

#31 Feb 11, 2013
Ant wrote:
Jesus is NOT God. The whole notion was started by Christians long ago to make him equal to God.
-He prayer to the father
-He tells us to pray to the father
-He said he is not greater that the father
-He ascended to the right hand side of the father
-Jesus said in Matthew 28, all power and authority has been given to him, so WHO GAVE HIM THAT POWER AND AUTHORITY
-No one knows the return of the son of man including him, only God himself knows the second coming
God is YAH, YAHWEH, YAHUWAH
Jesus is Yeshua, Yahoshua, etc...which means YAH is salvation

Then you are saying the Bible contradicts itself? It says Jesus is God who came down as earlier posted. Jesus himself said he was the "I Am" who was before Abraham.

Or maybe you just fail to understand the Godhead.

The Father is God
Jesus is God
The Holy Spirit is God

The THREE are all ONE
socci

Cameron, MO

#32 Feb 11, 2013
Steonaer wrote:
<quoted text>
Too many to adequately respond to all, but I'll give each a short statement of what I understand God's word to actually be saying..
First, logos in John 1:1 has fallen victim to gross mistranslation,

Nooope, the KJV and earlier Geneva used the best mss available, and are the only word for word direct translation.

here ya go, Greek to English..

www.logosapostolic.org/bibles/textus_receptus...

Although most translations say the same.

Jesus is God and there's no other way to read it. He was foretold in OT prophecies about a coming Messiah (anointed man)
Ant

Alpharetta, GA

#33 Feb 11, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you are saying the Bible contradicts itself? It says Jesus is God who came down as earlier posted. Jesus himself said he was the "I Am" who was before Abraham.
Or maybe you just fail to understand the Godhead.
The Father is God
Jesus is God
The Holy Spirit is God
The THREE are all ONE
I believe like our US Government consists of( Legislative, Executive, Judaical) branches, all 3 make up the government, but hey are not the same.

in the same way I do see God consisting of the father, son and holy spirit as making up God, but they are not the same. Its too many references I gave where Jesus is always pointing to the father and say he is not greater than him. Why did he cry out on the cross to Father why have you forsaken me? He didnt ascend to himself. If he was a God he would have said pray to him, not the father.
Cisco Kid

Columbia, CA

#34 Feb 11, 2013
Steonaer wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, Jesus was God's emissary, not God himself. He was begotten as a human son on earth and commissioned to act in his God's name.
Further you go on to speak of the ''fully man, fully God'' contradiction which has been repeated so often that its proponents have become desensitized to its irrationality. To be God ontologically entails not being man. To be man ontologically entails not being God. They are contradicting existential states. A single coherent person cannot be 'fully God and fully man'.
Don't be stumbled by old heresy.

Jesus Christ came to us as fully man and fully God.

Quite the miracle. Huh?
BUT....that's what God is known for.....miracles, that is.
Cisco Kid

Columbia, CA

#35 Feb 11, 2013
Ant wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe like our US Government consists of( Legislative, Executive, Judaical) branches, all 3 make up the government, but hey are not the same.

in the same way I do see God consisting of the father, son and holy spirit as making up God, but they are not the same. Its too many references I gave where Jesus is always pointing to the father and say he is not greater than him. Why did he cry out on the cross to Father why have you forsaken me? He didnt ascend to himself. If he was a God he would have said pray to him, not the father.
God Is, and has presented himself to mankind in the form of three different persons, yet all are God.

My right arm is me yet it is different than and does different things than my right leg, which is me as well.

By the way, nice analogy equating the trilateral branches of US government to the triune Godhead.

May I borrow that?
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#36 Feb 12, 2013
Completely different. Christians worship a man while the HEBREWS worship (or at least were supposed to) worship the God of their fathers. The God that appeared to the man Abraham. COMPLETE AND UTTER DIFFERENCE
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#37 Feb 12, 2013
FreeChic wrote:
No. The Judaism does not worship the God of the Bible because they deny the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is made very clear in the Bible.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus is the only way to God.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
This is how you know its the spirit of God and recognize it in the teachings of pastors, teachers, churches, religions, people, ect...
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
And this is how you know the spirit of anti-christ (spirit of error) and how you will be able to tell the difference in the spirit of anti-christ and the spirit of God. If they don't confess that Jesus is come in the flesh as the son of God and died for the sins of the world, they are not of God. This is the spirit of anti-Christ that they carry.
John 17:3
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”
1 John 5:12
“He who has the Son (Jesus) has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.”
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
How about you show us from the other side of the bible how Hebrews reject the "LORD" that appeared to Moses, Abraham, among other HEBREWS?
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#38 Feb 12, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
God Is, and has presented himself to mankind in the form of three different persons, yet all are God.
My right arm is me yet it is different than and does different things than my right leg, which is me as well.
By the way, nice analogy equating the trilateral branches of US government to the triune Godhead.
May I borrow that?
Lol the FACT is we have problems with what you're providing

1. God Almighty revealed Himself as ONE to the Hebrews. Therefore if a prophet comes and says that there God is not ONE but THREE then they are to reject that prophet. Not only reject but to kill him. Because he (the prophet) is trying to lead others to another god other than the ONE their fathers worshiped. So unless you can show that God Almighty, the God of Israel, is three USING THE OLD TESTAMENT, your thoughts have no grounding to stand on.

2. As I just stated, if you believe that Jesus displays to us that the God of Israel is three then you must believe he is a false prophet and deserved to be killed. Cant get around that unless you can show where the OT shows IN PLAIN LANGUAGE that the God of Abraham was three in ONE. Remember what I said? PLAIN LANGUAGE. Not loose interpretations of verses that still wouldnt be right.

All in all, this displays that Jesus was a false prophet that lead (or at least attempted to ) Israel to other gods their FATHERS NEVER KNEW. Thus he should have been put to death as is said in their teaching
Patriot

Louisville, CO

#39 Feb 13, 2013
"And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions..." http://bible.cc/joel/2-28.htm

This is Profound:

Cisco Kid

Columbia, CA

#40 Feb 13, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Lol the FACT is we have problems with what you're providing
Who is "WE"?
Are you Legion?
Flygerian wrote:
1. God Almighty revealed Himself as ONE to the Hebrews. Therefore if a prophet comes and says that there God is not ONE but THREE then they are to reject that prophet. Not only reject but to kill him. Because he (the prophet) is trying to lead others to another god other than the ONE their fathers worshiped. So unless you can show that God Almighty, the God of Israel, is three USING THE OLD TESTAMENT, your thoughts have no grounding to stand on.
2. As I just stated, if you believe that Jesus displays to us that the God of Israel is three then you must believe he is a false prophet and deserved to be killed. Cant get around that unless you can show where the OT shows IN PLAIN LANGUAGE that the God of Abraham was three in ONE. Remember what I said? PLAIN LANGUAGE. Not loose interpretations of verses that still wouldnt be right.
All in all, this displays that Jesus was a false prophet that lead (or at least attempted to ) Israel to other gods their FATHERS NEVER KNEW. Thus he should have been put to death as is said in their teaching
Why are you contained to The Old Testament?
That is just the first part of the reality.
God appeared in many and varied ways to mankind in the Old Testament, such as cloud and light.

These two images occur together in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
In the theophanies of the Old Testament, the cloud, now obscure, now luminous, reveals the living and saving God, while veiling the transcendence of his glory.
On the mountain of Transfiguration, the Spirit in the "cloud came and overshadowed" Jesus, Moses and Elijah, Peter, James and John, and "a voice came out of the cloud, saying,‘This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!'.
Lk 9:34-35

The importance of the context the mysterious episode of Jesus' Transfiguration takes place on a high mountain, before three witnesses chosen by himself: Peter, James, and John.
Jesus' face and clothes become dazzling with light, and Moses and Elijah appear, speaking "of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem."
A cloud covers him and a voice from heaven says:
"This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!" For a moment Jesus discloses his divine glory, confirming Peter's confession. He also reveals that he will have to go by the way of the cross at Jerusalem in order to "enter into his glory."

Moses and Elijah had seen God's glory on the Mountain; the Law and the Prophets had announced the Messiah's sufferings.
Christ's Passion is the will of the Father: the Son acts as God's servant; the cloud indicates the presence of the Holy Spirit.

"The whole Trinity appeared: the Father in the voice; the Son in the man; the Spirit in the shining cloud."

I suggest you not only take heed of the three witnesses but also The Word of The Lord.

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