Do Jews and Christians worship the sa...
IamHim

Duncan, OK

#368 Feb 20, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
You can post till you're blue in the face but you will never convince me that the majority of the scriptures mentioning the sons of God are not referring to men/messengers. Since when did you start writing for "us" and not just yourself. The whole idea of angels mixing with humans is a throw back. I don't believe that Greek and Roman Gods mixed with men or are you saying that they were homosexuals? Mythologies are just that, myths with no basis of truth.
And yet you believe in Jesus and the bible? Why are what they said true but the other "myths" are completely false without any truth? For example you do know that the story of Noah is in the sumerian texts which precede the bible right?
Sheilaa wrote:
In relation to Jude it is only your opinion many others agree with what I put forth including other Christan denominations such as the Christadelphians (and no I am not a Christadelphian). I see you have not addressed the majority of the scriptures that clearly show that sons of men mean humans. The bible is a continous revelation and the old compliments the new and that is why Jesus and the apostles constantly referred to the old testament.
It doesnt matter what they believe or you believe or me. What matters is what the text says. And the text makes it clear, it is not about the men of Israel in the time of Moses. That is an interpretation that you do not get from the text itself. Theres no point of me addressing your lackadaisical points of sons of God being men. Why? Because as I said it would be like me reading Genesis 1:29 see "seed" bearing plant and going to Genesis 22:18 and seeing the seed of Abraham (meaning descendants) and assuming this "seed" has the same definition as the "seed" in Genesis 1:29. This what you're telling me to do by pointing out the NT sons of God. All the while you're ignoring Job 1 and 2 and Job 38:7.
Sheilaa wrote:
God gave permission for "satan" to do various things to him, although he was limited in that he could not take Job's life. "So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD."(1:12)(again no mention of heaven - the only place we know "satan" has been is "going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it." (1:7) From first to last, it is patently clear that in the account of Job, God is responsible for all things, good and bad and that Job's trials were from God, not "satan". The true identity of the adversary is not given, yet we see that his unbelief in the purity of Job's faith was the reason God took the steps he did. It is also clear that this "satan" became the tool through which God afflicted Job. He was no more an angel than I.
The fact is that He gave Job over to Satan. Meaning He allowed Satan to tempt Job with diffeerent things. I've already showed how a man cannot (and was never used to) tempt another man in the way that Satan did.Can you show me a man can send envoys to steal from Job, make fire rain down from heaven, cause boils to come upon Job and more? If you say its the same as Moses raises the red sea, show me God Almighty being involved in EACH act as He was with Moses' acts? You cant. Just weak excuses for you as to why its the interpetation you're giving. You're also ignoring Revelation talking about Satan getting thrown out of heaven. But yea thats metaphorical too right?
Sheilaa wrote:
Psalm 82 is talking about unjust judges. Judges are called elohim "gods" in verse 6
In relation to Revelation I will address that tomorrow as it is now 2230. I don't believe you understand Revelation as is shown by your comments about satan and the 1/3 of the angels.
Quit googling explanations and use your own mind to come to conclusions. If it was about judges would God Almighty condemn to die as mortal men? OF COURSE NOT. Thats the FATE OF EVERY MAN. Including Jesus who was the son of God allegedly.
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#369 Feb 20, 2013
Not to hijack the thread, but since the conversation turned to the devil being "real", as in a real invisible boogy man, could you explain to me how--according to your beliefs--this devil operates?
IamHim

Oklahoma City, OK

#370 Feb 20, 2013
Either Satan is the one in Job who does NOTHING MORE than test people.

Or Satan is the one in the NT that deceives the whole world (Revelation 12:9) and is the father of lies (John 8:44).

Even though I doubt the validity of Jesus and the NT, I lean to the second because of how the world is. Heres why though in short

1. Fallen angels are clearly mentioned in Genesis 6.
2. Other communities such as the Romans, Greeks, Sumerians and more mentioned "gods" coming down from the heavens and interacting with them. Who were these? Why would they ALL be lying EXCEPT the Hebrews?
3. Hollywood clearly worships some foreign god that I do not know of and attempts to get others to worship this god by the music, tv, award shows and such that they perform YEAR AROUND.

So if fallen angels are real who led the fall? That to me, would be the devil. And I dont believe everyone I see to be pure human. I think demons are amongst us acting as humans.Time will tell all
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#371 Feb 20, 2013
IamHim wrote:
Either Satan is the one in Job who does NOTHING MORE than test people.
Or Satan is the one in the NT that deceives the whole world (Revelation 12:9) and is the father of lies (John 8:44).
Even though I doubt the validity of Jesus and the NT, I lean to the second because of how the world is. Heres why though in short
1. Fallen angels are clearly mentioned in Genesis 6.
2. Other communities such as the Romans, Greeks, Sumerians and more mentioned "gods" coming down from the heavens and interacting with them. Who were these? Why would they ALL be lying EXCEPT the Hebrews?
3. Hollywood clearly worships some foreign god that I do not know of and attempts to get others to worship this god by the music, tv, award shows and such that they perform YEAR AROUND.
So if fallen angels are real who led the fall? That to me, would be the devil. And I dont believe everyone I see to be pure human. I think demons are amongst us acting as humans.Time will tell all
Ya know, this issue of other gods/beings/whatever coming down to earth and interacting with humans is interesting, I never realized that you entertained such ideas, like the possibility that the mythology of other peoples could be correct.

I too believe that what is described in the traditions and mythologies of other peoples are descriptions of events that actually occurred, though explained in terms that those peoples could understood. There's simply too many similiarities.

I'm gonna take this a step further--though you'll probaly think I'm nuts--and say that I'm open to the "ancient alien" idea, lol.

No, I'm not neccessarily talking about how its explained on that tv show (the ancient alien idea has been around for decades), but I believe that its entirely possible that our G-d and the other "gods" are something along those lines. Too many stories about "gods" coming from the skies, "gods" mating with humans, some humans being descendants of the "gods", battles between "gods" in which what sounds to be modern weaponry was used etc., etc.

As for the Holly-wood thing--thats an issue open to interpretation.

Some see an evil cult-conspiracy type thing going on, others (like some black nationalists and especially white supremacists) see a plot of the "chosen ones" whom control Holly-wood to destroy western civilization. Plenty of conspiracy theories there, ya know? Control the information flow and you wield control over the minds of the mindless masses, we see this all around us, how its shaped this toxic culture in which we live today, where wrong is glorified as right and right is condemned as wrong or "un-cool".

Interesting stuff though.

shalom
IamHim

Oklahoma City, OK

#372 Feb 20, 2013
The Sumerian texts is what made me think that other gods/angels came to other civilizations really. They have a similar story to Noah in there. I dont know what you mean by the God of Israel and the ancient alien idea though. But do you mean that angels came and taught us things such as war? If so I might agree with this. But mind elaborating?

Hollywood is worshiping something/someone and I WHOLEHEARTEDLY doubt its the God of Israel. So (since all the negativity, lies, deception) I believe this to be Satan. Which is why I kind of take the NT interpretation of Satan though I dont really believe in the NT. So do you think these angels that came to other nations are evil, good, both?

“the end-times is now”

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#373 Feb 20, 2013
Do Jews and Christians worship the same God?
==========

I would say yes .. HOWEVER ..

the Old Testament points to a coming Messiah
the New testament reveals that messiah

Salvation comes to us through Jesus Christ

more here .. http://bobgeorge.net/teaching/hebrews/index.h... ..

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#375 Feb 20, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
Was Abraham evil? Noah? Job? Moses?
So nope man may CHOOSE to be evil. But they are not evil from birth if AT THE LEAST these men were not considered evil by God Almighty. And thats the judge. Not you not me.
Satan's real lol. Jesus made that clear. Revelation made that clear. And I dont even fully believe in those scriptures (the NT) but I still see who people choose to worship over God Almighty. Listen to the music. Watch tv. Watch the movies. And what you'll see is people giving worship to someone that is not God Almighty. SATAN.
Abraham sinned because he took his wife's counsel over what God had told him. He disobeyed God by producing a child who was a stranger to the promise God had given him. He participated in polygamy and rebelled against what God had stated in relation to marriage. That being between one man and one woman

Moses killed an Egyptian before he became a follower of God.
In relation to massacres this is what he ordered:
Numbers 31:17-18. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves

In relation to Noah, he sinned by his drunkenness and his immodesty
.
Cain was a murderer and yet he knew what was expected of him by God in relation to offerings. No one made him kill his brother. Each person is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then when desire has been conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin , when it is full-grown , brings forth death. James1: 13-15. We can't blame others for what we ourselves do
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#376 Feb 20, 2013
IamHim wrote:
The Sumerian texts is what made me think that other gods/angels came to other civilizations really. They have a similar story to Noah in there. I dont know what you mean by the God of Israel and the ancient alien idea though. But do you mean that angels came and taught us things such as war? If so I might agree with this. But mind elaborating?
Hollywood is worshiping something/someone and I WHOLEHEARTEDLY doubt its the God of Israel. So (since all the negativity, lies, deception) I believe this to be Satan. Which is why I kind of take the NT interpretation of Satan though I dont really believe in the NT. So do you think these angels that came to other nations are evil, good, both?
Yeah I've read the "Epic of Gilgamesh" and its definitely the same flood story with a few minor changes, and then there's the issue of Zarathrusta's religion and what seems to be its influence on the development of Judaic and xtian thought--which is another topic altogether.

But anyways, what I'm talking about--when it comes to these other gods--is that all of the peoples of the earth have their own elaborate mythologies and I believe that at least some of it was influenced by actual events, of other "gods" or beings coming to earth back in the day. Of course I could be entirely wrong but its what I believe, whether it be the mythology of egypt or the europeans.

Alot of peoples have stories of being taught different things by beings whom came from the sky. Me, I can't say for sure that its all made up because, well, we don't really understand (for sure) what this existence is about now do we?

Sure, we have our religion but don't really understand it, the possibilities are unlimited, imo.
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#377 Feb 20, 2013
As for whether or not these other angels/beings/gods that came to earth are evil, man I don't know.
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#378 Feb 20, 2013
His-truth wrote:
Do Jews and Christians worship the same God?
==========
I would say yes .. HOWEVER ..
the Old Testament points to a coming Messiah
the New testament reveals that messiah
Salvation comes to us through Jesus Christ
more here .. http://bobgeorge.net/teaching/hebrews/index.h... ..
Not really. I think the honest answer would be that some do and some don't.

If you worship Yeshuah, then you're not worshipping the G-d of Israel.

If you worship the G-d of Israel and simply regard Yeshuah as the messiah, then sure you're on the same page (though some would disagree)

And G-d knows best

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#379 Feb 20, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
And yet you believe in Jesus and the bible? Why are what they said true but the other "myths" are completely false without any truth? For example you do know that the story of Noah is in the sumerian texts which precede the bible right?

A:Which myths are you referring to, the epic of Gilgamesh?

It doesnt matter what they believe or you believe or me. What matters is what the text says. And the text makes it clear, it is not about the men of Israel in the time of Moses. That is an interpretation that you do not get from the text itself. Theres no point of me addressing your lackadaisical points of sons of God being men. Why? Because as I said it would be like me reading Genesis 1:29 see "seed" bearing plant and going to Genesis 22:18 and seeing the seed of Abraham (meaning descendants) and assuming this "seed" has the same definition as the "seed" in Genesis 1:29. This what you're telling me to do by pointing out the NT sons of God. All the while you're ignoring Job 1 and 2 and Job 38:7.

A: Satan is a human adversary not an evil being. Evil does not exist in heaven and God does not look upon evil. The sons of God were humans who came to worship God and Satan also came to the place of worship among them

The fact is that He gave Job over to Satan. Meaning He allowed Satan to tempt Job with diffeerent things. I've already showed how a man cannot (and was never used to) tempt another man in the way that Satan did.

A:...and I have already told you that God gave the power to satan to be able to do what he did

Can you show me a man can send envoys to steal from Job, make fire rain down from heaven, cause boils to come upon Job and more? If you say its the same as Moses raises the red sea, show me God Almighty being involved in EACH act as He was with Moses' acts? You cant. Just weak excuses for you as to why its the interpetation you're giving. You're also ignoring Revelation talking about Satan getting thrown out of heaven. But yea thats metaphorical too right?

A: I don't need to it is mentioned in the bible. In relation to satan being thrown out of heaven it has nothing to do with a spiritual being.

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#380 Feb 20, 2013
IamHim wrote:
Either Satan is the one in Job who does NOTHING MORE than test people.
Or Satan is the one in the NT that deceives the whole world (Revelation 12:9) and is the father of lies (John 8:44).
Even though I doubt the validity of Jesus and the NT, I lean to the second because of how the world is. Heres why though in short
1. Fallen angels are clearly mentioned in Genesis 6.
2. Other communities such as the Romans, Greeks, Sumerians and more mentioned "gods" coming down from the heavens and interacting with them. Who were these? Why would they ALL be lying EXCEPT the Hebrews?
3. Hollywood clearly worships some foreign god that I do not know of and attempts to get others to worship this god by the music, tv, award shows and such that they perform YEAR AROUND.
So if fallen angels are real who led the fall? That to me, would be the devil. And I dont believe everyone I see to be pure human. I think demons are amongst us acting as humans.Time will tell all
1. No they're not

2. There are myths that started with the Babylonians and have continued down through the ages ever since.The trinity started there and has continued through the ages in one form or another. Muhammad worshipped a moon god and tried to pass it off as a religion when in fact he plagerised scriptures from the Jews and the Christians

3.Hollywood is a culmination of MAN'S lust, desires, pride, arrogance, greed not some pretend satan

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#381 Feb 20, 2013

“the end-times is now”

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#382 Feb 20, 2013
Frank wrote:
<quoted text>
Not really. I think the honest answer would be that some do and some don't. If you worship Yeshuah, then you're not worshipping the G-d of Israel. If you worship the G-d of Israel and simply regard Yeshuah as the messiah, then sure you're on the same page (though some would disagree)And G-d knows best
I would leave you with this ......

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways .. BUT in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son .. whom he appointed heir of all things .. and through whom he made the universe ... The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS BEING .. sustaining all things by his powerful word .. After he had provided purification for sins .. he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven .......... Hebrews 1 http://bobgeorge.net/teaching/hebrews/index.h...

His work is done ... we are forgiven
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#383 Feb 20, 2013
His-truth wrote:
<quoted text>
I would leave you with this ......
In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways .. BUT in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son .. whom he appointed heir of all things .. and through whom he made the universe ... The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS BEING .. sustaining all things by his powerful word .. After he had provided purification for sins .. he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven .......... Hebrews 1 http://bobgeorge.net/teaching/hebrews/index.h...
His work is done ... we are forgiven
According to you.

Hey, lol, if you don't believe me then ask an honest "Orthodox jew" if you worship the same G-d.

You'll most likely be told that xtianity is "avodah zarah".

You worship a dude whom was openly subserviant to G-d.

Do as you will, I don't care.

peace
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#384 Feb 20, 2013
Frank wrote:
<quoted text>
Big fan of quotes, huh?
I'm gonna use the robot analogy again, lol.
I'm gonna apply it to this situation that we're discussing.
Okay Big Al, let's say that I'm a technological master and create a colony of reproducing robots on mars, I've made them very complex, they have have something similiar to emotions and a very sophisticated artificial intelligence. Now lets say I program them to behave in a certain way however I know that theres a possibility that some of them may malfunction in a way that is detrimental to the colony hence I give them a "law", I tell them to terminate the ones that malfucntion as its for the good of the colony, and for good measure I've promised to return to mars in 40 years and reward the good robots and destroy the "bad" ones.
Now, this commandment and promise of mine might offend the robots but I created them and know whats best for them, ya know? Sure, some of the robots--in my lengthy absense, might say "hey, fk the creator, he's evil and we know better. But they do? I created them, I know what's best.
So it is with G-d and us, imo. G-d knows what is best, even when it offends our ideas of what's right and wrong. We can't hold G-d to human standards because we havn't a real clue of what any of this (our existence) is about.
There ya go.
Sorry for the late response I missed your post until today.

Your story about punishing robots only makes sense if their creator is an ordinary human being with ordinary human faculties. If you, the creator of the robots, were omniscient and omnipotent you would know beforehand whether not they would obey your “law”. And being omnipotent any failure on their part to obey would be attributable to you. You insist on bringing the creator of the universe down to your level.

"Gods always behave like the people who created them"-- Zora Neale Hurston, American folklorist, anthropologist and author
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#385 Feb 20, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
It's a all a matter of perspective.

And even if Moses wasn't a prophet, you can't apply modern notions of justice to people whom lived several thousand years ago, thats just plain stupid.

I hear people do that all of the time to Muhammad, lol, and out fairnes I object to that as well even though I don't believe in him.

peace
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#386 Feb 20, 2013
P.S

Your people were/are "war criminals".

So what?

peace
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#387 Feb 20, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry for the late response I missed your post until today.
Your story about punishing robots only makes sense if their creator is an ordinary human being with ordinary human faculties. If you, the creator of the robots, were omniscient and omnipotent you would know beforehand whether not they would obey your “law”. And being omnipotent any failure on their part to obey would be attributable to you. You insist on bringing the creator of the universe down to your level.
"Gods always behave like the people who created them"-- Zora Neale Hurston, American folklorist, anthropologist and author
Nahh, I don't bring G-d down to the level of man, I simply used the robot example in an effort to demonstrate a point.

As for who or what G-d is or isn't, neither you or I know.

Its entirely possible that He/it is capable of being angry, happy, or something similiar to these states.

We can't define G-d nor attrbute things to Him/it of which we have no knowledge.

Unless you've met or directly observed the force/G-d/whatever that preceded the big-bang and evolution, then you're clueless in no position to tell anyone that they are right or wrong with certainty.

And while I've enjoyed one of her books, Zora isn't an authority on G-d either, lol.

peace
IamHim

Duncan, OK

#388 Feb 20, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
And yet you believe in Jesus and the bible? Why are what they said true but the other "myths" are completely false without any truth? For example you do know that the story of Noah is in the sumerian texts which precede the bible right?
A:Which myths are you referring to, the epic of Gilgamesh?
It doesnt matter what they believe or you believe or me. What matters is what the text says. And the text makes it clear, it is not about the men of Israel in the time of Moses. That is an interpretation that you do not get from the text itself. Theres no point of me addressing your lackadaisical points of sons of God being men. Why? Because as I said it would be like me reading Genesis 1:29 see "seed" bearing plant and going to Genesis 22:18 and seeing the seed of Abraham (meaning descendants) and assuming this "seed" has the same definition as the "seed" in Genesis 1:29. This what you're telling me to do by pointing out the NT sons of God. All the while you're ignoring Job 1 and 2 and Job 38:7.
A: Satan is a human adversary not an evil being. Evil does not exist in heaven and God does not look upon evil. The sons of God were humans who came to worship God and Satan also came to the place of worship among them
The fact is that He gave Job over to Satan. Meaning He allowed Satan to tempt Job with diffeerent things. I've already showed how a man cannot (and was never used to) tempt another man in the way that Satan did.
A:...and I have already told you that God gave the power to satan to be able to do what he did
Can you show me a man can send envoys to steal from Job, make fire rain down from heaven, cause boils to come upon Job and more? If you say its the same as Moses raises the red sea, show me God Almighty being involved in EACH act as He was with Moses' acts? You cant. Just weak excuses for you as to why its the interpetation you're giving. You're also ignoring Revelation talking about Satan getting thrown out of heaven. But yea thats metaphorical too right?
A: I don't need to it is mentioned in the bible. In relation to satan being thrown out of heaven it has nothing to do with a spiritual being.
LMAO Im done carry on in ignorance. But before you do such a thing explain to me who Jesus was talking about in John 8:44 and who Revelation was referring to when it said Michael fought the devil in heaven?

And also no God never gave power to man to tempt other men with unbelievable acts such as making fire rain down. Unless you have an example?

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