Do Jews and Christians worship the sa...
Frank

Clinton, NC

#245 Feb 17, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
it must be G-d who died in our place for him to get the glory.
Thats one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, lol.

G-d had to kill himself for the sins of what he created?

Yeah right.
Flygerian

Houston, TX

#246 Feb 17, 2013
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
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This is not a private interpretation, it is the testimony of the people who lived at that time. According to the law you supposedly endorse two witnesses is what is required on a matter to test its veracity. We have the two witnesses of the virgin birth in Matthew and Luke. You on the other hand have NO witness.
Too bad it wasnt a messianic prophecy.=/

To say Isaiah 7:14 is about the messiah or to say that the seed in Isaiah 53:10 is non physical
messianic114 wrote:
You admit that seed can refer to physical and non-physical, after I had to show multiple verses which tell us this, yet you have nothing to prove that physical seed is what is meant by the passage. How do I know this is not a private interpretation of scripture on your part? Please keep in mind I referred to Is 53 as a messianic passage fulfilled in Yeshua. I showed that seed can be non-physical and that Yeshua sired children through spiritual rebirth. Now you need to step up to the plate and show otherwise.
No. I admit that in certain places seed can refer to physical and non pysical. The thing is that the context lets you know which. The fact that the servant is going thru negative things but then its said he goes thru the positive (prolonged days) and seeing seed that shows that it is physical.

I dont have to show otherwise. Because Jesus never said anything about having children. Heres what he said:

Matt 12:50
Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!

Well in your religion, if you're following Jesus you're doing the will of his father right? Therefore you are his brother, sister, mother. Nothing of children nor did anywhere else did he say otherwise. IT IS YOU THAT NEEDS TO SHOW WHERE JESUS STATED SUCH.
messianic114 wrote:
We have even more witnesses that he lived after his death, so his days were prolonged. What witness do you have that he didn't rise from the dead? None! Can you find his body? No! Is there any historical record of him being buried anywhere or of any of the witnesses recanting their testimony? No!
His life was over after his death. What he showed was that there is a resurrection. After that he went to heaven where there are no days.
messianic114 wrote:
1. You do not respect the law as to witnesses.
So I guess I can take Ron and Hermoine from Harry potter as witnesses to Harry Potter?
messianic114 wrote:
2. You have nothing but your opinion that Yeshua's days were not prolonged.
FACT:Jesus died than went to heaven. In heaven there are no days and he didnt live long on earth after his death according to the gospels.
\\
Flygerian

Houston, TX

#247 Feb 17, 2013
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
<quoted text>
And that doesnt make sense. Before Abraham lived, I am? What is Jesus claiming here? Because hopefully you know the word used in exodus wasnt just simply "I am"?
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What Yeshua is claiming here is his existance prior to Abraham (which you don't believe) and that he is the "I am" of scripture (which you don't believe).
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This is straightforward, so I have to wonder what is so hard to understand for you.
No. It doesnt make sense.

Im older than you messianic! Before you were born, Flygerian!

Thats what Jesus did there. Not to mention the name was I AM WHAT I AM OR I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE
Flygerian

Houston, TX

#248 Feb 17, 2013
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
Hebrew 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Then why is it so difficult to believe that "sons of God" did not refer to humans as well. Angels do not marry OR HAVE CHILDREN as they are spirit beings not human beings and are incapable of reproduction as they have no reproductive organs. When God created the angels he didn't tell them to go out and multiply. The world was created for mankind and it was to mankind that God instructed them to go out and multiply
God forbid the children of God (who came from the line of Seth) to marry ungodly men who came from the line of Cain (but they did so anyway)
I've heard your side lol How many times you gotta repeat it? What Im asking is what in that verse tells you that it is not angels but the "sons of Seth" and "daughters of Cain"? Why not just plain out state that instead of speaking incomprehensible code? lol Besides:

Genesis 6:1
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

This tells you its regular daughters and not the "sons of Cain". Did it mean the men of Cain started to multiply? If so (and theres no proof of this but I'll ask anyways) what leads you to this conclusion FROM THE TEXT? Not commentaries but from the text itself
Flygerian

Houston, TX

#249 Feb 17, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
Understand Satan and his fallen angels were cast down to earth and cannot run about the universe. They are captive trapped here on earth.
In this passage God's people were in prayer or study before God and Satan was among them to address God.
What? Wheres the proof of this? Its clear that this was the angels and Satan coming to God Almighty. Plain and simple. You're twisting and turning around what the words ACTUALLY SAY is strange to say the least =/
Flygerian

Houston, TX

#250 Feb 17, 2013
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
<quoted text> Why didnt YOUR god state that people that believe in him are of his seed?
.
It is not G-d's modus operendi to talk to people directly. He uses the Holy Spirit to reveal himself to people. Prophets and holy men testify as to what G-d reveals. I believe every letter in scripture is divinely revealed in that we have clues in the text itself that can be found through the use of computers (although this phenomenon was known prior to computers) He has said: Isa 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Who are these sons if not those who obey him? This is the Messiah ingathering Israel (the sons that obey, not every descendant of Jacob).
Im saying since you're god is Jesus if Im not mistaken, why didnt he say that people that believe in him are his children? Instead saying they were his brother sister and mother? In fact didnt he say to call no one father but the one in heaven? If so how could he be a father to children?
Flygerian

Houston, TX

#251 Feb 17, 2013
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
1. I am basing my assessment on what you have shown, which is a lack of understanding of the text, failure to answer the tough questions, not even reading your own posts to see if you agree with yourself as in the HIS OFFSPRING post, etc.[/quote]

Not going to keep going over this. I told you why the translation said offspring. IT wasnt because I put it there
[QUOTE who="messianic114"]
2. Non-virgins were punishable by death and the value of a virgin wife is still at a premium today in semitic cultures and women are killed for having a lack of virtue.
Doesnt change the fact that there were still young women who werent virgins
messianic114 wrote:
3. <quoted text> So does the Hebrew
3a. You told us the Hebrew said almah,(post 153) this is what I mean, you don't know the text.
No I thought you meant the Aramic word shows virgin as bethulah. Not Isaiah 7:14
messianic114 wrote:
4. I doubt you can.
Really no use. You dont wanna know that which is why you're telling me alma is virgin. Then you refer to a later translation (aramic) as proof of something lol
messianic114 wrote:
5. It is a sign to the whole house of David, not just Ahaz. It is from this family the Messiah will proceed.
Had nothing to do with the messiah. Which is why it says that before the child knows good from evil the 2 lands of the kings they (Judah) dreaded would be laid to waste. This already happened thousands of years before Jes touched earth.
messianic114 wrote:
0
6. 0Again you want to play with words. No one is saying the ELSs are a sign of Messiah. What I am saying is that imbedded in the text of this passage are clues that augment the sign (which is the virgin and her child). These clues tell us:
1. who the mother is - Miriam
2. Who the child is - my son
3. what the child's mission is - an offering
What is ELSs?

The fact is the sign had nothing to do with the messiah. So unless we're discussing the war between Judah and Israel why are we bringing it up?
Flygerian

Houston, TX

#252 Feb 17, 2013
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
<quoted text>
Just because a man tells you he is god that means he is?
.
This is a true statement, but if that man walks on water, commands the forces of nature, tells us he will raise himself to life after three days and does it, we have to take seriously if he isn't who he says he is. Since he is the only candidate for Messiah as no no else came forth before the destruction of the temple, and fulfills many prophecies, then we are left with this:
Israel was not supposed to base a prophet's credibility based on miracles so that throws the first 3. Just because a messiah hasnt come means that will never come? Why? And I hope you no that "annointed one" in Daniel can refer to a variety of "anointed ones"?
messianic114 wrote:
1. Either He is the Messiah or there will be NO Messiah.
This is poor logic dont ya think?
messianic114 wrote:
2. Daniel lied to us.
Or you have the wrong interpretation.
messianic114 wrote:
3. There is a mass conspiracy going on for 2000 years that no evidence has surfaced to expose.
Just because YOU havent exposed it doesnt mean others havent.
Flygerian

Houston, TX

#253 Feb 17, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
Angels appearing as men or not they are still spirit beings incapable of procreation. If they possess a man then it is still the man's child.
At that time in Genesis before Israel God's people were the "sons of God."
Sons of God denotes God's people and angels. All but one verse this refers to mankind. One verse refers to God's angels in heaven. Never does this refer to fallen angels.
1 Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the *sons of God*, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called the *sons of God*: therefore the world knows us not, because it knew him not.
Phl 2:15 That you may be blameless and harmless, the *sons of God*, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine as lights in the world;
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the *sons of God*.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the *sons of God*.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the *sons of God*, even to them that believe on his name:
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the *sons of God* shouted for joy?-- Here the sons of God are angels in heaven at creation.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the *sons of God* came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.-- Satan was/is not a son of God but was among God's people present in prayer, or earthly manifestation of God in the Temple.(see Matthew Henry commentary)
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the *sons of God* came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.-- Same as v.2:1.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the *sons of God* came in unto the daughters of men.-- Daughters of men are they who are in rejection of God - the line of Cain uniting with God's people in marriage to produce giants, not of physical stature, according to the Hebrew, rather fallen as a result of unequally yoked unions.
Strong's Concordance: "giants"
Hebrew: nephiyl
a) feller-fallen away.
www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon....
Physically large human giant is Hebrew: rapha (Deu 2:11)
a) old tribe of giants.
This site & vid have much more history on this..
http://davelivingston.com/sonsofgod.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =07xhnRhwOaAXX
The sons of God in Genesis 6 and Job 1 WITHOUT A DOUBT represent angels. Thats what the context tells you. But you keep trying to judge the context by the NT which makes little sense
socci

El Dorado Springs, MO

#254 Feb 18, 2013
Frank wrote:
Thats one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, lol.
G-d had to kill himself for the sins of what he created?
Yeah right.

The wages of sin is death - not the first death the second death in the lake of fire. Jesus dying on earth was to fulfill the symbolism of the sacrificial system that reminded everyone "the wages of sin is death".
socci

El Dorado Springs, MO

#255 Feb 18, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
What? Wheres the proof of this? Its clear that this was the angels and Satan coming to God Almighty. Plain and simple. You're twisting and turning around what the words ACTUALLY SAY is strange to say the least =/

Satan and the fallen angels were cast down to earth by God. They cannot go back to heaven.

Job 1:7 "And the LORD said to Satan, From where come you? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

God was in the tabernacle of the seat of the Ark of the covenant.
socci

El Dorado Springs, MO

#256 Feb 18, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
The sons of God in Genesis 6 and Job 1 WITHOUT A DOUBT represent angels. Thats what the context tells you. But you keep trying to judge the context by the NT which makes little sense

The nephilim angel babies teaching comes from the book of Enoch and has never been a Christian teaching. It was Gnostic then only recently gained in popularity in some christian circles. It certainly was not a Jewish teaching either. The flood was due to SIN not GENETICS.

Jesus fulfilled the timeline of Daniel's 70 weeks. He is God who is responsible for the OT & NT. It was Jesus on Mt Sinai who wrote the 10C with Moses. We will use the whole Bible.

dollarsbill

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#257 Feb 18, 2013
Tiny Timmie wrote:
I know we share Old Testament Scriptures, but Jews don't interpret the Old Testament as Christians do.
Christians worship Jesus of Nazareth AS GOD. The Jews don't. Christians believe in a "Triune" God. Jews do not believe in the Trinity as Christians teach.
It seems to me as a new believer that alot of the Israel-like stuff that appears on "Christian" TV and radio doesn't really go with Christian teaching.
I'm just a newbie Christian but I find this kinda confusing.
Just don't forget that Jesus will return to the Land of Israel when He returns. He will fight for them.

Zechariah 14:2-4 (NKJV)
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
Kelvo

United States

#258 Feb 18, 2013
Tiny Timmie wrote:
I know we share Old Testament Scriptures, but Jews don't interpret the Old Testament as Christians do.
Christians worship Jesus of Nazareth AS GOD. The Jews don't. Christians believe in a "Triune" God. Jews do not believe in the Trinity as Christians teach.
It seems to me as a new believer that alot of the Israel-like stuff that appears on "Christian" TV and radio doesn't really go with Christian teaching.
I'm just a newbie Christian but I find this kinda confusing.
Yes they do,Abrahamic faiths are all of the same God.There is only one God, ive seen many say theirs 780 gods but they cant differentiate Abrahamic faith with idoltary. Israliets from the start were choosen by God to bring the truth to the world. Jesus came as the son of God to take the sin away. Jews dont accept this but they choose too keep tradition, they believe their saviour is yet to come.
Frank

Clinton, NC

#259 Feb 18, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
The wages of sin is death - not the first death the second death in the lake of fire. Jesus dying on earth was to fulfill the symbolism of the sacrificial system that reminded everyone "the wages of sin is death".
So then you agree that G-d killed himself for the sins of what He created?

That's basically what you're saying. ya know?
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#260 Feb 18, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
How do I not have a "wisp of support"? Where does it mention children or a wife?
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This is exactly the point, so if I claimed he did have a wife, I wouldn't have a wisp of support because there is no evidence either way.
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This is called the argument from silence. Are we to conclude that of all the disciples Yeshua had, which would have been well over 100 that only Peter was married because no other wife is mentioned?
.
Can we conclude that since there is no mention of a wife he was a Homosexual?
.
You seem to not be able to distinguish between evidence and inference.
.
Using this technique I could infer since it doesn't say G-d was created that he was.
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Lastly you are still focused on the physical when you have already admitted that seed can be non-physical.
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#261 Feb 18, 2013
Frank wrote:
<quoted text>
So then you agree that G-d killed himself for the sins of what He created?
That's basically what you're saying. ya know?
.
You seem to be fixated on G-d killing himself. Where is the evidence for this?
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If G-d had created man without the ability to choose right from wrong then you might have a point, but we all can choose to do right.
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The guilt of his death rests on those who took part in the deed?
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If I decided to walk into downtown Detroit in the middle of the night and was killed, you might say I was foolish, but I doubt the police would close the case as suicide.
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By this line of reasoning all the soldiers that volunteered and died in combat committed suicide.
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By this line of reasoning all parents would become murderers when their children died because they knew in advance that they would be bringing a life into this world that would die.
Flygerian

Duncan, OK

#262 Feb 18, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
Satan and the fallen angels were cast down to earth by God. They cannot go back to heaven.
Job 1:7 "And the LORD said to Satan, From where come you? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
God was in the tabernacle of the seat of the Ark of the covenant.
You're just guessing that God was "in the tabernacle" what proof do you have?
Flygerian

Duncan, OK

#263 Feb 18, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
The nephilim angel babies teaching comes from the book of Enoch and has never been a Christian teaching. It was Gnostic then only recently gained in popularity in some christian circles. It certainly was not a Jewish teaching either. The flood was due to SIN not GENETICS.
Jesus fulfilled the timeline of Daniel's 70 weeks. He is God who is responsible for the OT & NT. It was Jesus on Mt Sinai who wrote the 10C with Moses. We will use the whole Bible.
There are fallen angels acting like men and leading people astray. Thats clear from Genesis 6. Why cant you just SHOW ME what from Genesis leads one to the conclusion that its the sons of Seth and the daughters of Cain?
Flygerian

Duncan, OK

#264 Feb 18, 2013
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
This is exactly the point, so if I claimed he did have a wife, I wouldn't have a wisp of support because there is no evidence either way.

This is called the argument from silence. Are we to conclude that of all the disciples Yeshua had, which would have been well over 100 that only Peter was married because no other wife is mentioned?
If the gospels do not say he had a wife than we cannot say that Isaiah 53 where it says he will see his seed and prolonged days applies to him. What we can say is that it does not apply to him since there is no children mentioned and he died a premature death.
messianic114 wrote:
Can we conclude that since there is no mention of a wife he was a Homosexual?
.
You seem to not be able to distinguish between evidence and inference.
.
Lol where is the messiah (and again Isaiah 53 is not about the messiah but lets go with it) said to be homosexual? If its in the prophets that the messiah would be homosexual than it would need to say Jesus is homosexual somewhere in the gospels to show that he fulfilled it right?

No you're just trying to make excuses. The FACT is that no children were mentioned. Therefore I can logically conclude that he does not fit Isaiah 53 that says he will see his seed. I cannot say "well he might have fulfilled it" because thats not how it works. Either its in the gospels or its not and its not.
Using this technique I could infer since it doesn't say G-d was created that he was.
messianic114 wrote:
Lastly you are still focused on the physical when you have already admitted that seed can be non-physical.
I've already said the context tells you its physical since prolonged days is mentioned afterwards. Something he didnt have either. How about you explain how its non physical using the context? I dont mean going to Genesis 1 and showing me an unrelated mention of seed but using Isaiah 53.

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