Does the Bible Reveal that a Marriage...

Since: Jun 07

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#21 Sep 19, 2009
Wayne wrote:
You won't find one verse OR even an implication of marriage between two men or two women in the bible. Now, if I have missed the verse where it IS all right for same sex marriage or union, could you please supply it?
Well, please know that I never suggested that the bible supported or condemned homosexual marriage. You see, I am interested in where specifically does the bible defines a marriage as being between one man and one woman. So, if you do not mind, I would much rather stick with the topic of this thread with all due respect (smile).

Since: Jun 07

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#22 Sep 19, 2009
angelinaUK wrote:
<quoted text>Hello Wayne, hope you are well:)
I may be wrong but I thought that gundees was asking this question in regard to monogamy/bigamy type matters. i.e Is it scriptural for men to have more than one wife as the mormons do.
No, Angelina, you are not wrong. I am asking this question from a polygamous perspective, since the law actually bans something that the bible supported, in my humble opinion (smile).

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#23 Sep 19, 2009
Wayne wrote:
Hi Angelina..good to hear from you..No, he was implying there's nothing scripturally against same sex unions. IMO
Well, Wayne, this might be you inferred, but I assure you that I was not referring to homosexual marriages,with all due respect. And if you would be so kind, please notice that I never even mentioned anything about any particular type of marriage, right (smile).

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#24 Sep 19, 2009
Wayne wrote:
I agree. I know there isn't one single verse that even HINTS at same sex unions,,I was trying to get Gundees answer.
Well, here is my answer as it relates to gay marriages. If people want to use the bible to condemn gay marriages, then I think that they should at least cite the passages that actually condemn such a union, in my humble opinion (smile).

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#25 Sep 19, 2009
Adam wrote:
Marriage is a beautiful thing. Peace
Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
If I may very respectfully ask, "If a marriage is such a beautifulthing, then why do you suppose that priests are forbidden to marry"(smile?
Wayne

United States

#26 Sep 19, 2009
gundee123 wrote:
<quoted text>
No, Angelina, you are not wrong. I am asking this question from a polygamous perspective, since the law actually bans something that the bible supported, in my humble opinion (smile).
Ok, sorry. I took it the wrong way. What happened to Solomon? And why? What was his downfall?
Wayne

United States

#27 Sep 19, 2009
gundee123 wrote:
<quoted text>
If I may very respectfully ask, "If a marriage is such a beautifulthing, then why do you suppose that priests are forbidden to marry"(smile?
The church wants all their money and life insurance when they die, IF they have any. Nowhere in the bible is marriage condemned. I believe the catholics started that litte white lie.
Missionary Man

Shelby, OH

#28 Sep 19, 2009
gundee123 wrote:
<quoted text>
If I may very respectfully ask, "If a marriage is such a beautifulthing, then why do you suppose that priests are forbidden to marry"(smile?
I'm not a Catholic but most likely in order to have total submission to God. If one has a wife, he must submit to her needs as well. Marriage is a good thing.
Missionary Man

Shelby, OH

#29 Sep 19, 2009
Gundee:

The question of polygamy is an interesting one in that most people today view polygamy as immoral while the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns it. The first instance of polygamy/bigamy in the Bible was that of Lamech in Genesis 4:19: "Lamech married two women." Several prominent men in the Old Testament were polygamists. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives. In 2 Samuel 12:8, God, speaking through the prophet Nathan, said that if David's wives and concubines were not enough, He would have given David even more. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (essentially wives of a lower status), according to 1 Kings 11:3. What are we to do with these instances of polygamy in the Old Testament? There are three questions that need to be answered: 1) Why did God allow polygamy in the Old Testament? 2) How does God view polygamy today? 3) Why did it change?

1) Why did God allow polygamy in the Old Testament? The Bible does not specifically say why God allowed polygamy. As we speculate about God’s silence, there are a few key factors to consider. First, there have always been more women in the world than men. Current statistics show that approximately 50.5 percent of the world population are women, with men being 49.5 percent. Assuming the same percentages in ancient times, and multiplied by millions of people, there would be tens of thousands more women than men. Second, warfare in ancient times was especially brutal, with an incredibly high rate of fatality. This would have resulted in an even greater percentage of women to men. Third, due to patriarchal societies, it was nearly impossible for an unmarried woman to provide for herself. Women were often uneducated and untrained. Women relied on their fathers, brothers, and husbands for provision and protection. Unmarried women were often subjected to prostitution and slavery. The significant difference between the number of women and men would have left many, many women in an undesirable situation.

So, it seems that God may have allowed polygamy to protect and provide for the women who could not find a husband otherwise. A man would take multiple wives and serve as the provider and protector of all of them. While definitely not ideal, living in a polygamist household was far better than the alternatives: prostitution, slavery, or starvation. In addition to the protection/provision factor, polygamy enabled a much faster expansion of humanity, fulfilling God's command to "be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth" (Genesis 9:7). Men are capable of impregnating multiple women in the same time period, causing humanity to grow much faster than if each man was only producing one child each year.

2) How does God view polygamy today? Even while allowing polygamy, the Bible presents monogamy as the plan which conforms most closely to God's ideal for marriage. The Bible says that God's original intention was for one man to be married to only one woman: "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife [not wives], and they will become one flesh [not fleshes]" (Genesis 2:24). While Genesis 2:24 is describing what marriage is, rather than how many people are involved, the consistent use of the singular should be noted. In Deuteronomy 17:14-20, God says that the kings were not supposed to multiply wives (or horses or gold). While this cannot be interpreted as a command that the kings must be monogamous, it can be understood as declaring that having multiple wives causes problems. This can be clearly seen in the life of Solomon (1 Kings 11:3-4).

See Polygamy continued...
Missionary Man

Shelby, OH

#30 Sep 19, 2009
Polygamy continued...

In the New Testament, 1 Timothy 3:2, 12 and Titus 1:6 give "the husband of one wife" in a list of qualifications for spiritual leadership. There is some debate as to what specifically this qualification means. The phrase could literally be translated "a one-woman man." Whether or not this phrase is referring exclusively to polygamy, in no sense can a polygamist be considered a "one-woman man." While these qualifications are specifically for positions of spiritual leadership, they should apply equally to all Christians. Should not all Christians be "above reproach...temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money" (1 Timothy 3:2-4)? If we are called to be holy (1 Peter 1:16), and if these standards are holy for elders and deacons, then they are holy for all.

Ephesians 5:22-33 speaks of the relationship between husbands and wives. When referring to a husband (singular), it always also refers to a wife (singular). "For the husband is the head of the wife [singular]... He who loves his wife [singular] loves himself. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife [singular], and the two will become one flesh....Each one of you also must love his wife [singular] as he loves himself, and the wife [singular] must respect her husband [singular]." While a somewhat parallel passage, Colossians 3:18-19, refers to husbands and wives in the plural, it is clear that Paul is addressing all the husbands and wives among the Colossian believers, not stating that a husband might have multiple wives. In contrast, Ephesians 5:22-33 is specifically describing the marital relationship. If polygamy were allowable, the entire illustration of Christ's relationship with His body (the church) and the husband-wife relationship falls apart.

3) Why did it change? It is not so much God's disallowing something He previously allowed as it is God's restoring marriage to His original plan. Even going back to Adam and Eve, polygamy was not God's original intent. God seems to have allowed polygamy to solve a problem, but it is not the ideal. In most modern societies, there is absolutely no need for polygamy. In most cultures today, women are able to provide for and protect themselves—removing the only "positive" aspect of polygamy. Further, most modern nations outlaw polygamy. According to Romans 13:1-7, we are to obey the laws the government establishes. The only instance in which disobeying the law is permitted by Scripture is if the law contradicts God's commands (Acts 5:29). Since God only allows for polygamy, and does not command it, a law prohibiting polygamy should be upheld.

Are there some instances in which the allowance for polygamy would still apply today? Perhaps, but it is unfathomable that there would be no other possible solution. Due to the "one flesh" aspect of marriage, the need for oneness and harmony in marriage, and the lack of any real need for polygamy, it is our firm belief that polygamy does not honor God and is not His design for marriage.

Blessings,
MM

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#31 Sep 19, 2009
Wayne wrote:
Ok, sorry. I took it the wrong way.
Although I readily accept your apology, please know that one is not warranted (smile).
Wayne wrote:
What happened to Solomon? And why? What was his downfall?
Well, as it relates to his polygamous marriages, I most respectfully submit that Solomon’s downfall stemmed from his taking many foreign wives, whom he allowed to worship other gods (smile).
Wayne wrote:
The church wants all their money and life insurance when they die, IF they have any. Nowhere in the bible is marriage condemned. I believe the catholics started that litte white lie.
Wow! We actually agree that priests were not allowed to get married because of financial reasons, rather than for biblical reasons (smile).

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#32 Sep 19, 2009
Missionary Man wrote:
I'm not a Catholic but most likely in order to have total submission to God. If one has a wife, he must submit to her needs as well. Marriage is a good thing.
Well,“Do you think it is possible that the real reason that Catholic priests were not allowed to marry was because the church did not want to share its wealth with the priests’ offspring,” if you do not mind my asking (smile)?
Missionary Man wrote:
Gundee:
The question of polygamy is an interesting one in that most people today view polygamy as immoral while the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns it.
Yes, I totally agree (smile).
Missionary Man wrote:
The first instance of polygamy/bigamy in the Bible was that of Lamech in Genesis 4:19: "Lamech married two women." Several prominent men in the Old Testament were polygamists. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives. In 2 Samuel 12:8, God, speaking through the prophet Nathan, said that if David's wives and concubines were not enough, He would have given David even more. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (essentially wives of a lower status), according to 1 Kings 11:3. What are we to do with these instances of polygamy in the Old Testament? There are three questions that need to be answered: 1) Why did God allow polygamy in the Old Testament? 2) How does God view polygamy today? 3) Why did it change?
Excellent questions (smile)!
Missionary Man wrote:
1) Why did God allow polygamy in the Old Testament? The Bible does not specifically say why God allowed polygamy. As we speculate about God’s silence, there are a few key factors to consider. First, there have always been more women in the world than men. Current statistics show that approximately 50.5 percent of the world population are women, with men being 49.5 percent. Assuming the same percentages in ancient times, and multiplied by millions of people, there would be tens of thousands more women than men. Second, warfare in ancient times was especially brutal, with an incredibly high rate of fatality. This would have resulted in an even greater percentage of women to men. Third, due to patriarchal societies, it was nearly impossible for an unmarried woman to provide for herself. Women were often uneducated and untrained. Women relied on their fathers, brothers, and husbands for provision and protection. Unmarried women were often subjected to prostitution and slavery. The significant difference between the number of women and men would have left many, many women in an undesirable situation.
So, it seems that God may have allowed polygamy to protect and provide for the women who could not find a husband otherwise. A man would take multiple wives and serve as the provider and protector of all of them. While definitely not ideal, living in a polygamist household was far better than the alternatives: prostitution, slavery, or starvation. In addition to the protection/provision factor, polygamy enabled a much faster expansion of humanity, fulfilling God's command to "be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth" (Genesis 9:7). Men are capable of impregnating multiple women in the same time period, causing humanity to grow much faster than if each man was only producing one child each year.
In my humble opinion, this is a very plausible explanation. On the other hand,“Why do you suppose that God did not simply create more women than men in order to maintain His alleged intent of a monogamous marriage,” if you do not mind my asking (smile)?

more to follow....

“so tell me......”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#33 Sep 19, 2009
Wayne wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Angelina..good to hear from you..No, he was implying there's nothing scripturally against same sex unions. IMO
Looks like you're right:)
I found the first post a little confusing and obviously took the wrong meaning.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#34 Sep 19, 2009
continued.....
Missionary Man wrote:
2) How does God view polygamy today? Even while allowing polygamy, the Bible presents monogamy as the plan which conforms most closely to God's ideal for marriage. The Bible says that God's original intention was for one man to be married to only one woman: "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife [not wives], and they will become one flesh [not fleshes]" (Genesis 2:24). While Genesis 2:24 is describing what marriage is, rather than how many people are involved, the consistent use of the singular should be noted. In Deuteronomy 17:14-20, God says that the kings were not supposed to multiply wives (or horses or gold). While this cannot be interpreted as a command that the kings must be monogamous, it can be understood as declaring that having multiple wives causes problems. This can be clearly seen in the life of Solomon (1 Kings 11:3-4).
Are you sure that Deu 17:14-20 prohibits “kings” in general from having multiple wives, or is this verse just prohibiting a particular “king” that would be chosen from amongst the people of Israel from having multiplying horses, wives, gold, and silver,” if you do not mind my asking? And if so,“Isn’t the reason that this particular king was commanded not to have many wives is simply because he might turn his heart away from God. Besides, if you are going to interpret this passage to mean that a king could only have one wife, then wouldn’t it be fair to interpret it to mean that this same king could only have one horse, right? Besides, was Solomon’s downfall having to many foreign wives and allowing them to worship other gods”(smile)?
Missionary Man wrote:
In the New Testament, 1 Timothy 3:2, 12 and Titus 1:6 give "the husband of one wife" in a list of qualifications for spiritual leadership. There is some debate as to what specifically this qualification means. The phrase could literally be translated "a one-woman man." Whether or not this phrase is referring exclusively to polygamy, in no sense can a polygamist be considered a "one-woman man." While these qualifications are specifically for positions of spiritual leadership, they should apply equally to all Christians. Should not all Christians be "above reproach...temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money" (1 Timothy 3:2-4)? If we are called to be holy (1 Peter 1:16), and if these standards are holy for elders and deacons, then they are holy for all.
Well, do you agree that “but for” polygamy being an accepted practice of the people of Israel, it would not have been necessary for Paul to outline the qualifications for a spiritual leadership position,” if you do not mind my asking. And if Paul wanted everyone to practice a monogamous relationship, wouldn’t he have simply said so, rather than make us speculate (smile)?
more to follow....

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#35 Sep 19, 2009
continued....
Missionary Man wrote:
Ephesians 5:22-33 speaks of the relationship between husbands and wives. When referring to a husband (singular), it always also refers to a wife (singular). "For the husband is the head of the wife [singular]... He who loves his wife [singular] loves himself. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife [singular], and the two will become one flesh....Each one of you also must love his wife [singular] as he loves himself, and the wife [singular] must respect her husband [singular]." While a somewhat parallel passage, Colossians 3:18-19, refers to husbands and wives in the plural, it is clear that Paul is addressing all the husbands and wives among the Colossian believers, not stating that a husband might have multiple wives. In contrast, Ephesians 5:22-33 is specifically describing the marital relationship. If polygamy were allowable, the entire illustration of Christ's relationship with His body (the church) and the husband-wife relationship falls apart.
Another very good point! However, if it is the law that defines sin, then why do you suppose that polygamy is never biblically condemned as a sin, even when many other sexual acts are condemned,” if you do not mind my asking
Missionary Man wrote:
3) Why did it change? It is not so much God's disallowing something He previously allowed as it is God's restoring marriage to His original plan. Even going back to Adam and Eve, polygamy was not God's original intent. God seems to have allowed polygamy to solve a problem, but it is not the ideal. In most modern societies, there is absolutely no need for polygamy. In most cultures today, women are able to provide for and protect themselves—removing the only "positive" aspect of polygamy. Further, most modern nations outlaw polygamy. According to Romans 13:1-7, we are to obey the laws the government establishes. The only instance in which disobeying the law is permitted by Scripture is if the law contradicts God's commands (Acts 5:29). Since God only allows for polygamy, and does not command it, a law prohibiting polygamy should be upheld.
Are there some instances in which the allowance for polygamy would still apply today? Perhaps, but it is unfathomable that there would be no other possible solution. Due to the "one flesh" aspect of marriage, the need for oneness and harmony in marriage, and the lack of any real need for polygamy, it is our firm belief that polygamy does not honor God and is not His design for marriage.
Blessings,
MM
If you would be so kind, please cite just one verse in the whole bible whereas polygamy was condemned (smile).

“so tell me......”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#36 Sep 19, 2009
gundee123 wrote:
<quoted text>
No, Angelina, you are not wrong. I am asking this question from a polygamous perspective, since the law actually bans something that the bible supported, in my humble opinion (smile).
Oh darn, I should have read further before replying to Wayne. LOL So I wasn't confused.....thats a first.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#37 Sep 19, 2009
angelinaUK wrote:
Oh darn, I should have read further before replying to Wayne. LOL So I wasn't confused.....thats a first.
Stop being so modest. After all, I have read many of your posts, and in my humble opinion, you are not confused at all (smile).

“so tell me......”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#38 Sep 20, 2009
gundee123 wrote:
<quoted text>
Stop being so modest. After all, I have read many of your posts, and in my humble opinion, you are not confused at all (smile).
Well thanks!!
I may have to frame your reply so that I can show it to my nearest and dearest who consider me to be a total scatterbrain. LOL

“so tell me......”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#39 Sep 20, 2009
gundee123 wrote:
continued....
<quoted text>

If you would be so kind, please cite just one verse in the whole bible whereas polygamy was condemned (smile).
In 1 Tim 3.2. one of the qualifications for church leadres is to be the husband of one wife.
This is alos repeated as a requirement in Titus 1.6.

Wilst theses qualifactions are only mentioned in regard to those wishing to become church leaders I am inclined to think that these qualities are listed because those leaders are to set the example that God requires for the rest of the church.
In other words the church body should be able to follow the leaders who should lead by good example.
It is a case of setting the standard for others to follow.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#40 Sep 20, 2009
angelinaUK wrote:
Well thanks!!
You’re very welcomed (smile)!
angelinaUK wrote:
I may have to frame your reply so that I can show it to my nearest and dearest who consider me to be a total scatterbrain. LOL
Well, please tell your nearest and dearest for me that I think he/she has really missed the mark because you are a long way from being scatterbrain at all (smile).
angelinaUK wrote:
In 1 Tim 3.2. one of the qualifications for church leadres is to be the husband of one wife.
This is alos repeated as a requirement in Titus 1.6.
Yes, I totally agree (smile).
angelinaUK wrote:
Wilst theses qualifactions are only mentioned in regard to those wishing to become church leaders I am inclined to think that these qualities are listed because those leaders are to set the example that God requires for the rest of the church.
In other words the church body should be able to follow the leaders who should lead by good example.
It is a case of setting the standard for others to follow.
You make an excellent point here. However, I tend to look at this issue from a somewhat different perspective. You see, perhaps, Paul made being in a monogamous relationship one of the qualifications for being an church leader because “polygamy” was actually practiced and accepted as not sinful. Otherwise, it would not have been necessary to make such a qualification if it had been a sin, right? In fact, there was another specific situation whereas a man could not have multiple wives, i.e.,“in choosing a specific king to lead the Israelites people at Deu 17:17, right? But to suggest that this qualification also applied to every king might be a little stretch, in my humble opinion and with all due respect, especially since there is absolutely no biblical authority for such a claim, right (smile)?

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