created by: Mark | May 29, 2008

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Was Paul a False Apostle?

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  • Iím not sure but he was likely
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1,121 - 1,140 of 1,701 Comments Last updated 2 hrs ago
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#1197
Apr 14, 2014
 
Cliff09 wrote:
Miles long threads of nonsense discussion that lead nowhere!
Jesus says: repent and baptize for everlasting life. And that's the only discussion required for Christians.
A: what is repenting?
B: what is baptism?
C: note that these two together are metaphorically referred to as: born again.
We see that the big work is in repenting, and this believers in Christ must discuss and be concerned with, for it can be said: upon this rests the whole foundation of salvation!
Born again/Repenting/Baptism
http://www.theholychristianchurch.com/born-ag...
----------
- The Gospel is not the way you like to see it: it is the way it is.
- Jesus taught those who follow him only to Preach what he taught them - for they can never Teach you.
Calling The Unbeliever, Confronting The Lukewarm, Exposing The Hypocrite
Do Not Follow Men, Nor Churches! Come to Christ, says God!
http://www.theholychristianchurch.com/christi...
http://www.theholychristianchurch.com/baptism...
- Murder: the unauthorized (by God) killing of a creature
- Killing: the authorized (by God) putting to death of a creature
- Judging: In Christianity, the prohibited 'judging' is to execute a penalty upon another as retribution for their sins.
- CO1 5: 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
- Protect the Children from Satan in the Churches: http://www.silentlambs.org
- LUK 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Note well the concluding remarks of Jesus Christ at the end of Matthew.

1. Make/invite people to also become His disciples.
2. Immerse them in the Name.
3. Teach them to keep the same commandments He gave the first disciples.

Being baptized is only the half-way point - if Matthews account of what Jesus said is true.

And if Moses is true, and Peter is true in the Acts 1-3 accounts, then disciples who do not do whatever Jesus taught/commanded - then they will face the wrath of God because belief and obedience go hand in hand in unity. This is also what John the Baptist taught about Jesus in preparing the way for Him. Those who believe will be saved, but those who don't obey Him will face the wrath of God. Or as Jesus said He will tell those who reject the instructions of God: "Depart from Me, I never knew you.", in spite of their believing they were doing a number of great things in His name - He will tell them He never knew them.

If we take the whole of His word we can't conclude that baptism is all that is required of a believer.

Re-read the sermon on the mount. Did He say to be hearers and doers of His word? Or did He also bless those who heard, believed, but didn't do as He said to do?
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#1198
Apr 14, 2014
 
Regarding Paul and if he lied or not, a primary issue is if he taught against Jews keeping Torah. This was one of the charges against him at Jerusalem that resulted in a number of issues.

Of the books we have from Paul prior to the time of the Jerusalem vow/oath instance at the Temple and subsequent "trials" when he said he held to the Jewish faith from childhood are Romans and the Corinthian letters. In these three book can we find Paul teaching what he was accused of teaching?

If we can, then the charges were true and Paul committed perjury - he provided false testimony.

How many Paul supporters want to prove Paul told the truth?

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

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#1199
Apr 14, 2014
 

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Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
The first heresy was Paul. Look up Marcion and "Against Marcion".
Of course only Paul had the never to claim it was the Jews who believed Jesus. Paul had another gospel to sell that was making him fairly rich...even in jail.
Read a book written by Peter - I Peter. What did Peter say in I Peter? It wasn't what Paul's personal historians claimed Peter said. Peter was no liar. Believe what Peter wrote on the topic - he knew what Jesus taught.
Hmmm, Paul was imprisoned by the Romans. Barely being fed and watered. I am sure paper and pen were in short supply.

Who would he 'sell' to? Did he have a fleet of writers editing copies for the masses?

Will the stories and bashing ever end?

The CF is rife with bandwagon jumping conspiracy theory sheeple with no end in sight...
Loveismygoal

Glasgow, UK

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#1200
Apr 15, 2014
 

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Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
The first heresy was Paul. Look up Marcion and "Against Marcion".
Of course only Paul had the never to claim it was the Jews who believed Jesus. Paul had another gospel to sell that was making him fairly rich...even in jail.
Read a book written by Peter - I Peter. What did Peter say in I Peter? It wasn't what Paul's personal historians claimed Peter said. Peter was no liar. Believe what Peter wrote on the topic - he knew what Jesus taught.
do you have scriptures to support what you say about Saul/Paul being made rich even in jail ?
Loveismygoal

Glasgow, UK

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#1201
Apr 15, 2014
 

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Cliff09 wrote:
Miles long threads of nonsense discussion that lead nowhere!
Jesus says: repent and baptize for everlasting life. And that's the only discussion required for Christians.
A: what is repenting?
B: what is baptism?
C: note that these two together are metaphorically referred to as: born again.
We see that the big work is in repenting, and this believers in Christ must discuss and be concerned with, for it can be said: upon this rests the whole foundation of salvation!
Born again/Repenting/Baptism
http://www.theholychristianchurch.com/born-ag...
----------
- The Gospel is not the way you like to see it: it is the way it is.
- Jesus taught those who follow him only to Preach what he taught them - for they can never Teach you.
Calling The Unbeliever, Confronting The Lukewarm, Exposing The Hypocrite
Do Not Follow Men, Nor Churches! Come to Christ, says God!
http://www.theholychristianchurch.com/christi...
http://www.theholychristianchurch.com/baptism...
- Murder: the unauthorized (by God) killing of a creature
- Killing: the authorized (by God) putting to death of a creature
- Judging: In Christianity, the prohibited 'judging' is to execute a penalty upon another as retribution for their sins.
- CO1 5: 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
- Protect the Children from Satan in the Churches: http://www.silentlambs.org
- LUK 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
protect the children from satan in the church you say .. I intend to .. From what I see you've got rid of your disgusting photo of a child's barbie doll in women's underwear next to a dildo on your web page I may be wrong but I don't see it anymore .. Thank God for that .. I see you've got the stealing the keys to heaven document on your site now .. Interesting
Nc resident

Charlotte, NC

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#1202
Apr 15, 2014
 
Philippians 4:8
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#1203
Apr 15, 2014
 
Loveismygoal wrote:
<quoted text>do you have scriptures to support what you say about Saul/Paul being made rich even in jail ?
Mostly circumstantial. The best case for the matter is in "Not Paul, but Jesus". You can go one line to google books and find it for free.

Pages 287 to 300 have some on the topic, but it was also outlined generally in earlier chapters.

While in Rome, didn't Paul live in a house for some time, rather than in jail? Where did he get the funds? Barnabas pretty much abandoned him at last in Jerusalem, and another benefactor was found and he continued to preach his gospel away from Jerusalem and the Jews, who had found him out. His primary antagonists were the Jewish Christian converts who made the charges to begin with - Paul caused trouble wherever he went.

Right now I'm reading the chapters about how the "anti-Christ" is an invention of Paul....
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#1204
Apr 15, 2014
 
And where on earth did Paul come up with the funding to secure the four other men and himself to take the Nazarite vows? It was expensive just for one person - let alone five!!!!!

No, it appears Paul was 'living' off the 'tithing' or 'free will offereings' that were gathered on the first day of the week per his commandment.

The real apostles didn't live in such wealth as Paul did.
Huh

Sussex, WI

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#1205
Apr 15, 2014
 

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Barnsweb wrote:
And where on earth did Paul come up with the funding to secure the four other men and himself to take the Nazarite vows? It was expensive just for one person - let alone five!!!!!
No, it appears Paul was 'living' off the 'tithing' or 'free will offereings' that were gathered on the first day of the week per his commandment.
The real apostles didn't live in such wealth as Paul did.
Sounds like pure speculation on your part BDubbya.
Loveismygoal

Glasgow, UK

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#1206
Apr 15, 2014
 
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Mostly circumstantial. The best case for the matter is in "Not Paul, but Jesus". You can go one line to google books and find it for free.
Pages 287 to 300 have some on the topic, but it was also outlined generally in earlier chapters.
While in Rome, didn't Paul live in a house for some time, rather than in jail? Where did he get the funds? Barnabas pretty much abandoned him at last in Jerusalem, and another benefactor was found and he continued to preach his gospel away from Jerusalem and the Jews, who had found him out. His primary antagonists were the Jewish Christian converts who made the charges to begin with - Paul caused trouble wherever he went.
Right now I'm reading the chapters about how the "anti-Christ" is an invention of Paul....
im afraid I can't count circumstantial evidence against the man .. i will give the book a wee look over later but I highly doubt the antichrist is an invention of Saul/Paul .. Christ himself spoke of many antichrists coming and already there and I believe Saul/Paul to be one ... But I won't disregard everything the man has to say based on my belief .. Even in the rubbish heap little golden nuggets can be found so I look forward to sifting through what the writer has to say ..thanks

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

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#1207
Apr 15, 2014
 
Loveismygoal wrote:
yet Saul /Paul openly admits to lies and deceit and not only admits it but excuses it ?
2 Corinthians 12:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
Romans 3 7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner
How do you reconcile this with everything Christ taught regarding truth and lies ???
Steady yourself, Loveismygoal.

Read those events again, please and if you will. I'm aware that at times, our English translations can become quite confusing. But, if you read those events again, carefully, you'll notice that Paul wasn't admitting to lying and being crafty. Rather, he was defending not only himself, but those with him, from false-accusations.

The event recorded at Romans 3 actually begins at Romans 2:17. Paul was concerned about Israelite leaders that were trying to subject the newly converted by demanding that they keep the same commandments that were fulfilled on the cross - namely, circumcision in this case. They were accusing Paul of lying, declaring that circumcision was necessary for anyone that chose to join themselves with Israel. The rest of Paul's testimony and beginning at verse 7 says, "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather,(as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just (Romans 3:7-8)." As we can see, the very next verse has Paul explaining that these are the things that are "slanderously reported" and "as some affirm that [they] say."

The incident at 2Corinthians 12:16, which you quoted, was not a confession, but a reminder of the accusation against him and those with him. From verse 14, it's written, "Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children. And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you (2Corinthians 12:14-17)?" "Being craft" and catching the congregation "with guile" was the false-accusation against them.

Since: Oct 11

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#1208
Apr 15, 2014
 
It's a blessing reading each of your comments. The comments makes one aspire to expand their Biblical knowledge and studies. Thank you! Kudos!
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#1209
Apr 15, 2014
 
What did Jesus teach about the Torah? Did He say it was valid and true and good until heaven and earth pass away and all things be fulfilled?

Yes.

Only Paul taught otherwise.

The Jewish Christians in Jerusalem and Asia and Antioch abandoned him at his failure to accomplish the oath/vow at the Temple.

Because Luke painted a less than clear picture of the facts as they happened does not prevent us today from being able to determine the matter of the truthfulness and inspired claims of Paul - it just takes more digging out the facts from what we have of the record.

Felix spoke rightly when he exclaimed Paul had gone mad. Felix was right! Paul had gone mad! Look at the record of the charges against Paul and that Paul's defense didn't even address the charges, but tried to deflect them to something not even related! The man was raving mad, as Felix charged!

Jesus taught the Gentiles to keep Torah - not abandon it.

Isaiah 42. Does it say He would cause the Gentiles to honor the Torah? or toss it away as a curse to Israel and the dead husband of your sister-in-law?

Open your eyes brother!
Nc resident

Charlotte, NC

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#1210
Apr 15, 2014
 
Brother Lee Love wrote:
<quoted text>Steady yourself, Loveismygoal.
Read those events again, please and if you will. I'm aware that at times, our English translations can become quite confusing. But, if you read those events again, carefully, you'll notice that Paul wasn't admitting to lying and being crafty. Rather, he was defending not only himself, but those with him, from false-accusations.
The event recorded at Romans 3 actually begins at Romans 2:17. Paul was concerned about Israelite leaders that were trying to subject the newly converted by demanding that they keep the same commandments that were fulfilled on the cross - namely, circumcision in this case. They were accusing Paul of lying, declaring that circumcision was necessary for anyone that chose to join themselves with Israel. The rest of Paul's testimony and beginning at verse 7 says, "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather,(as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just (Romans 3:7-8)." As we can see, the very next verse has Paul explaining that these are the things that are "slanderously reported" and "as some affirm that [they] say."
The incident at 2Corinthians 12:16, which you quoted, was not a confession, but a reminder of the accusation against him and those with him. From verse 14, it's written, "Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children. And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you (2Corinthians 12:14-17)?" "Being craft" and catching the congregation "with guile" was the false-accusation against them.
Understanding Paul is like understanding Shakespeare, it takes work.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

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#1211
Apr 15, 2014
 

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loveismygoal wrote:
really???
Acts 15:6-8
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Remember, loveismygoal, that it was to Peter that it was said, "I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19)." The first of these keys was used at Pentecost, when Peter preached the gospel to all those in attendance. The second key was used when Peter preached the gospel to the Gentile Cornelius and his household. But, from this point and on, Peter became, as commanded, the apostle to Israel.
loveismygoal wrote:
yes I most certainly find fault with Saul/Paul for blinding a man
How can you say such a thing after I shared with you the verses that proved that Peter caused two people to die - for deceitfully withholding money from him (Acts 5:1-11)? Just as it wasn't actually Peter that caused their death, but the Holy Spirit, so it wasn't Paul that actually caused blindness, as if he physically damaged the man's eyes himself.
loveismygoal wrote:
but lets say he was preaching the truth in this instance where does Christ give the authority to blind men to his disciples ?
Where, or rather when, did our anointed Savior give them the authority to put people to death?

[QUOTE WHO="loveismygoal"]D id Christ say hey that's merciful of you ..you only chopped the soldiers ear of when you could have killed him ? did Christ say if anyone rejects your message blind them ? nowhere does he give the disciples the authority and power to blind men ..he gives the very opposite ..why didn't Saul/Paul cast out the demons as commanded and set the man free?[/QUOTE]Why didn't Peter tell Ananias and Sapphira to repent?

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

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#1213
Apr 15, 2014
 

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Richie T wrote:
Did you not agree Paul was a false apostle? Yet, you quoted some of his writings. You are very confused and fractured in your belief system.
My belief system is neither, confused, nor fractured. I decided to visit this thread in order to defend Paul. Perhaps, my posts are too complex to understand for some.

“Become Love!”

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#1214
Apr 15, 2014
 

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Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

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#1215
Apr 15, 2014
 
Nc resident wrote:
Understanding Paul is like understanding Shakespeare, it takes work.
Of Paul's epistles, Peter wrote, "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction (2Peter 3:6)."

I admit that most likely, Peter was referring more to Paul's subject-matter than he was to Paul's use, or lack thereof rather, of specific terminology. Up to the point quoted above, Peter was speaking about the great day of judgment and what's called "The Lord's Day." Regardless, it becomes quite easy to conclude that Paul never taught contrary to neither, the law, the testimonies, nor our anointed Savior. In most cases, the law or laws referred to can be determined by the surrounding content even if Paul doesn't mention the law, or laws, specifically. And these references clearly explain why Paul focused so much attention on faith and grace, and why they're so vital to our ultimate salvation. Would it make any sense to instruct people to have a genuine, unwavering belief that the law has been done away with, entirely, only to instruct them, later on, "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10)." Allow me to say this about Paul's comment, please and if you will, "Owe no man any thing."

In what we call "The Lord's Prayer," we were instructed, "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors (Matthew 6:12)." To have a debt, or to be indebted to another, means we owe. Paul wrote, again, "Owe no man any thing." Then, after this, he wrote, "but to love one another." So essentially, Paul was instructing that we never miss an opportunity to love another. By missing any opportunity to love another, that puts us in debt to that person. Therefore, we should never be faced with such guilt - that we could have, should have, or would have. Rather, Paul gave us a few examples that coincide with that taught by our anointed Savior while including a commandment that does not appear in the Decalogue. And this is the reason Paul wrote, to Timothy, "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine (1Timothy 1:8-10)." In this and as I understand, the law or morality is not for those that already love others, as they need no reminder. That's first and foremost. And secondly, the law of the death penalty is also not for those that genuinely love others with a pure heart, fervently. The law is for those not in the know.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Shalowm.
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#1216
Apr 16, 2014
 
Brother Lee Love wrote:
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Thanks for your honesty to admit you are on the topix thread to defend Paul, we can surely know where you are coming from. You give some quotes that support Paul teaching good things about the Law, but you aren't fully putting Paul within the parameters of the fullness of his teaching against the Law - had Paul merely taught the Law as good and the teachings of Jesus bringing them to ascending heights of grace and truth - Paul would have taught correctly - the trouble is that Paul taught against the things he taught for, thus causing all kinds of mischief and troubles to those who believe his words inspired by God, the Christ or the Holy Spirit.

If you wish to defend Paul, do as you will, and perhaps you can convince some; or perhaps you will realize the folly of your current system of belief?

1. Who gave the Law to Moses? God, or beggarly elementals, or regular angels? By Law, I mean the instructions of God to Israel and the multitude of nations that He lead out of Egypt.

2. The Law causes us to sin, as we are not to know sin without the Law? Then how was it that the world was evil and sinful and God repented that He'd made man - if the Law was not given? How could God have judged the wicked and saved the righteous and be judged good or just or faithful?

Since: Oct 07

Glasgow, UK

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#1217
Apr 16, 2014
 
Brother Lee Love wrote:
<quoted text>Steady yourself, Loveismygoal.
Read those events again, please and if you will. I'm aware that at times, our English translations can become quite confusing. But, if you read those events again, carefully, you'll notice that Paul wasn't admitting to lying and being crafty. Rather, he was defending not only himself, but those with him, from false-accusations.
The event recorded at Romans 3 actually begins at Romans 2:17. Paul was concerned about Israelite leaders that were trying to subject the newly converted by demanding that they keep the same commandments that were fulfilled on the cross - namely, circumcision in this case. They were accusing Paul of lying, declaring that circumcision was necessary for anyone that chose to join themselves with Israel. The rest of Paul's testimony and beginning at verse 7 says, "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather,(as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just (Romans 3:7-8)." As we can see, the very next verse has Paul explaining that these are the things that are "slanderously reported" and "as some affirm that [they] say."
The incident at 2Corinthians 12:16, which you quoted, was not a confession, but a reminder of the accusation against him and those with him. From verse 14, it's written, "Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children. And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you (2Corinthians 12:14-17)?" "Being craft" and catching the congregation "with guile" was the false-accusation against them.
Thanks for the warning to steady myself for that is some spin youve taken there if your saying what I think your trying to say here ..correct me if I am wrong but are you trying to tell me that rather than Saul/Paul saying here simply nevertheless ,being crafty I caught you with guile that he was actually being sarcistic or whatever term it is for someone who says something but didnae really mean it as such?

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