The New Covenant?
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The truth works

Houston, TX

#1 May 4, 2014
If we needed a new covenant 2000 years ago, why shouldn't we need a new new covenant today?
no-one-special

Mérida, Mexico

#3 May 4, 2014
Opps, I forgot to add the Mother and her offspring churches between the bottom two passages

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christia...

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no-one-special

Mérida, Mexico

#4 May 4, 2014
Whatever happened to the good old days of Gentiles being of one accord and letting those (John 4:22) who know what they worship continue to teach and graft (convert) them into Jesus' ONE flock of reformed Judaism

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http://biblehub.com/john/10-16.htm

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no-one-special

Mérida, Mexico

#5 May 4, 2014
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I'll tell you what happened. Their Roman ancestors murdered so many of the earlier followers to the point that they went underground and into hiding. They're still around, but you won't find them in any of those mainstream sects you see today. They exist underground in small pockets scattered throughout the earth today and continue in the doctrine of Christ and the apostles by meeting in their houses as often as they can to share meals together, the gospel, and remember what our Passover lamb meant (Acts 2:42-47--Hebrews 10:25). They caught on to the assemblies of Satan and their diabolical schemes along long time ago.

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Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#6 May 5, 2014
Back when I was a Christian the idea of a new covenant was used to explain and justify why we went to church on Sunday rather than Saturday and why we followed the 10 commandments and not the 613 mitzvot found in the Torah. I see that there are also those that use the idea of a new covenant and the doctrine of faith only to justify just about anything.

I think the idea of a new covenant was Paul's way of creating a complete separation between Judaism and Christianity. Saul was a fanatical Jew willing to kill to defend traditional Judaism against the new ideas of Jesus. Psychologically Paul had to somehow rationalize his drastic personal flip-flop in his own mind and the new covenant was his way of doing it. Sadly the Jews have been feeling the negative effects for 2,000 years.
comment

Ozark, MO

#7 May 5, 2014
The truth works wrote:
If we needed a new covenant 2000 years ago, why shouldn't we need a new new covenant today?
Well, I'm and advocate of the new covenant, and I think there have been some misinformation
in the previous posts, so I'm put in my 2 cents about it all.

First, the covenant mediated by Jesus, will continue for the duration of the church
age. The next covenant God initiates with man is not a pleasant one, You can
examine it in Revelation 14, and it initiates the time of God's wrath.

Second, John 10:16 is speaking of the initiation of the new covenant, and the
inclusion of gentiles into the promises of the covenant on an equal basis
with Jews. The "good old days" are right now, during this church age, for
the gentiles. It's not what denomination church you attend. There is only
one church that counts with Jesus, and that is the body of Christ. And that
body of believers are the new covenant followers.

Third, Paul did not create the new covenant, read Jeremiah 31:31-34 for starters.
There are numeerous verses throughout the bible, related to the new covenant,
with Jesus as mediator and yes, with Paul as it's minister. Only if you want to
selectively ignore scripture, is the new covenant not the currently operative
agreement between God and men.

“Living for Jesus”

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#8 May 5, 2014
Jeremiah 31:31-34

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying,‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
Prophet of Jesus Christ

Helotes, TX

#9 May 5, 2014
Keep Smiling 3 wrote:
Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying,‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
What did you give to God in return for His salvation?

NDanger

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

#10 May 5, 2014
Prophet of Jesus Christ wrote:
<quoted text>
What did you give to God in return for His salvation?
GOD doesn't need anything from mere humans...
no-one-special

Mérida, Mexico

#11 May 5, 2014
Big Al wrote:
Back when I was a Christian the idea of a new covenant was used to explain and justify why we went to church on Sunday rather than Saturday and why we followed the 10 commandments and not the 613 mitzvot found in the Torah. I see that there are also those that use the idea of a new covenant and the doctrine of faith only to justify just about anything.
I think the idea of a new covenant was Paul's way of creating a complete separation between Judaism and Christianity. Saul was a fanatical Jew willing to kill to defend traditional Judaism against the new ideas of Jesus. Psychologically Paul had to somehow rationalize his drastic personal flip-flop in his own mind and the new covenant was his way of doing it. Sadly the Jews have been feeling the negative effects for 2,000 years.
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Don't blame Paul. Blame Gentiles ministers for acting like God sent Paul to nullify what Jesus was teaching us from the OT by saying grace abolished the OT. Take the sin Paul speaks about in Romans Chapter 1:27-32. If you notice the few examples of sin you see being spoken of goes against God and His righteous decree. And where can we find God's righteous decree? In the Old testament. This proves Paul was not using the blood of the second and grace to say the entire OT was abolished. This is also why Paul said:

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----Romans 3:28-31 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

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The only laws that ceased were those countless number of priestly duties and the sacrificial laws carried out in the Temple (Hebrews 10). These are the only works that were to cease. Our Passover lamb ( Jesus) is a permanent sin offering according to the Apostles.
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comment

Ozark, MO

#12 May 5, 2014
no-one-special wrote:
<quoted text>
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Don't blame Paul. Blame Gentiles ministers for acting like God sent Paul to nullify what Jesus was teaching us from the OT by saying grace
abolished the OT. Take the sin Paul speaks about in Romans Chapter 1:27-32. If you notice the few examples of sin you see being spoken of goes against God and His righteous decree. And where can we find God's righteous decree? In the Old testament. This proves Paul was not using the blood of the second and grace to say the entire OT was abolished. This is also why Paul said:
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----Romans 3:28-31

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The only laws that ceased were those countless number of priestly duties and the sacrificial laws carried out in the Temple (Hebrews 10). These are the only works that were to cease. Our Passover lamb ( Jesus) is a permanent sin offering according to the Apostles.
I don't think the mosaic Law is the "righteous decree", either in the context of the verses you cite, or in the tenets of the new covenant. The only link between them is that they are all God's word.

The righteous decree referenced in Romans 1:32, is the knowledge of God's existence that unbelievers are all, without exception, aware of but choose to ignore by refusing to glorify him or give him thanks. Romans 1:18-23.

The righteous decree that Moses instituted, included all of the Law, not
just a part, Deut 4:8 And that Law competed with belief as the catalyst for obedience. That is, the Mosaic Law, became corrupted by men, so that the Law became the reason for obedience, instead of the belief of God. And that is why the covenant was corrupt, obsolete, and revoked.

A new covenant may retain some of the previous, but when the new covenant adds or changes the provisions, it superceeds the old. And that is what Jeremiah 31 does. It is stated that God will write the law into mens' hearts. Not that the Mosaic written law will continue, but that the Spirit will be the authority for man's behavior and understanding.

That is, the law of the new covenant, the one which saves all men, is the law written in men's heart by God, not the written Law that failed the Jews and brought the covenant of Law to an end. The content of that Law, may parallel the law of the new covenant, but it's maintenance is not by men, as was the old, but by the Spirit, which is the new.

Since God does not change,(even though what he reveals may progress) It is not difficult to believe that the content of the Law and the law is similar.But that does not mean we should retain the written law as an authority of man's behavior, over the Spirit, who has been designated as the new covenant authority.

The point here is that individuals are now directly responsible for their
relationship with their creator, the only mediator between men and God, is Christ. No other priest or other clergy acts as a go-between for us. We can directly seek and inquire of our maker. And we as individuals, are responsible for behaving as the Spirit prompts us.

And the forgiveness of the new covenant is unconditional. unlike the old system where forgiveness was incomplete, believers in the new
system have no work obligation to assure their acceptance.

The new covenant is just better all around, for all men.

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#13 May 5, 2014
Most of the 613 mitzvot were written for an ancient time and place and will be amended by God. It will usually state if a law is "perpetual" or "forever" in the Torah. The 10 commandments were written in stone and are forever. Isaiah 2:3 "...for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem". There will be many more statutes and judgments added. It is important to keep the law as it was written, God is the only one that can change it. Malachi 4:4-5. "Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord".
no-one-special

Mérida, Mexico

#14 May 5, 2014
comment wrote:
<quoted text>.
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Oh please. Where did Paul get the idea that homosexuality is a sin, if it didn't come from the Torah? Jesus? What did Jesus tell us about homosexuality?I'm not saying Jesus never said anything about it but no where in the gospels do we see Jesus saying anything about homosexuality and he too was teaching from the OT (because the NT didn't exist yet) And by the way, look at the rest of the sin Paul speaks on.

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----Romans 1:29-32 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

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I see some of the law in it. Remember, " thou shall not kill". It's in there. Remember "thou shall honour thy father and mother". It's in there.

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Also, I've seen you make the statement that what Jesus was teaching was only for the Jewish disciples and not for Gentiles. If this is the case and the laws are truly written on your mind, then what do you have to compare that tells you what sin is and what sin isn't. What, do you just wing it by using some of the laws Paul taught in his letters? That's it. Paul is the be all of our salvation? You and many Gentiles need to stop teaching this. These slanted interpretations of grace abolishes all is leading many away from Christ.
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no-one-special

Mérida, Mexico

#15 May 5, 2014
comment wrote:
<quoted text>
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And whatever you do, don't put words in my mouth by saying that I think the new covenant includes us carrying out the countless number of priestly duties and sacrificial laws for sin carried out in the Temple that was prescibed in the mosaic law because that's not what I'm saying. I know what laws Paul meant would cease due to Christ being a final offering for sin (Hebrews Chapters 8-10)

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no-one-special

Mérida, Mexico

#16 May 5, 2014
comment wrote:
<quoted text>
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And like I said once before in my posts that you refused to address head on, is that after Pentecost it is the Holy spirit who ultimately decides which commandments Jews and Gentiles should obey and keep from the word of God (OT/NT). One example. Do Gentiles really think those in Israel are going to stop celebrating the feast of Passover in March/April because Gentiles sects say so. Of course not. Am I saying celebrating Passover every March/April is a requirement for Gentiles. Of course not. But Gentiles should understand that the feast of Passover was an everlasting ordinance God said Israel's descendants were to carry out FOREVER (Exodus 12).

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no-one-special

Mérida, Mexico

#17 May 5, 2014
God doesn't change. Gentiles (men) change and twists God's word.
comment

Ozark, MO

#18 May 5, 2014
no-one-special wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Oh please. Where did Paul get the idea that homosexuality is a sin, if it didn't come from the Torah? Jesus? What did Jesus tell us about homosexuality?I'm not saying Jesus never said anything about it but no where in the gospels do we see Jesus saying anything about homosexuality and he too was teaching from the OT (because the NT didn't exist yet) And by the way, look at the rest of the sin Paul speaks on.
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----Romans 1:29-32 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
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I see some of the law in it. Remember, " thou shall not kill". It's in there. Remember "thou shall honour thy father and mother". It's in there.
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Also, I've seen you make the statement that what Jesus was teaching was only for the Jewish disciples and not for Gentiles. If this is the case and the laws are truly written on your mind, then what do you have to compare that tells you what sin is and what sin isn't. What, do you just wing it by using some of the laws Paul taught in his letters? That's it. Paul is the be all of our salvation? You and many Gentiles need to stop teaching this. These slanted interpretations of grace abolishes all is leading many away from Christ.
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There is really nothing new here that I haven't already responded to. and I've tried to be
as clear in my position as I am able.

God supplies the law written in men's hearts. No mention of the written Law by Jeremiah
except to indicate the old covenant is broken.

The kingdom gospel that Jesus taught was directed toward the Jews alone.
That is not saying that the teachings of Jesus had no value. I'm not even saying
that the written Law has no value. What the written Law does not have is
authority under the covenant of which Christ is the mediator.

You can be as irate as you wish, but unless you want to contest the authority or
existence of the new covenant with scripture that supports your position , I don't see
where this discussion is heading.

Have a nice day.
comment

Ozark, MO

#19 May 5, 2014
no-one-special wrote:
<quoted text>
.
And like I said once before in my posts that you refused to address head on, is that after Pentecost it is the Holy spirit who ultimately decides which commandments Jews and Gentiles should obey and keep from the word of God (OT/NT). One example. Do Gentiles really think those in Israel are going to stop celebrating the feast of Passover in March/April because Gentiles sects say so. Of course not. Am I saying celebrating Passover every March/April is a requirement for Gentiles. Of course not. But Gentiles should understand that the feast of Passover was an everlasting ordinance God said Israel's descendants were to carry out FOREVER (Exodus 12).
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I agree with all but the last sentence. The Mosaic law is based on the Mosaic covenant.
That covenant was not everlasting, it was conditional and revocable as indicated by the
"IF" requirement. That is what was broken and that is why God moved on.
comment

Ozark, MO

#20 May 5, 2014
no-one-special wrote:
God doesn't change. Gentiles (men) change and twists God's word.
God doesn't change, but He does change his message to man at different stages of man's understanding. Example. The Abrahamic covenant was to institute the concept of
faith that enabled obedience. The Mosaic covenant was to build a "nation of priests"
God said nothing to Abraham regarding the revelations of the prophets. The Davidic
covenant prepared for the coming of Jesus, but God didn't reveal Jesus to David.

I think you need more faith in the word that God provided for us. He's in control.
no-one-special

Mérida, Mexico

#21 May 5, 2014
comment wrote:
<quoted text>
There is really nothing new here that I haven't already responded to. and I've tried to be
as clear in my position as I am able.
God supplies the law written in men's hearts. No mention of the written Law by Jeremiah
except to indicate the old covenant is broken.
The kingdom gospel that Jesus taught was directed toward the Jews alone.
That is not saying that the teachings of Jesus had no value. I'm not even saying
that the written Law has no value. What the written Law does not have is
authority under the covenant of which Christ is the mediator.
.

This is what's been crazy about our discussion. I agree with most of what you have been saying. It's just I thought you believed the Law and Jesus' teachings had no value or were abolished when Holy Spirit wrote God's laws on the hearts and minds of jews and Gentiles . This is why the last time we talked about this subject I asked for you to address what I was saying head on and correct me on something if needed so I could see your position clearly. Another thing I'm glad we agree on is that it is the Holy Spirit who decides which commandments Jews and Gentiles should obey and keep from the word of God (OT/NT). This is also why God is able to graft back in the other olive branch spoken of by the Prophet Zechariah and the Apostle Paul. They also have the inspired word of God or Old Testament, which just so happens to be Jesus' other name (Revelation 19:13). They also are called to reject the mythical version of Jesus that Rome and her reformed offspring have imposed on the world for the past 2,000 years, while the other olive branch is still called to teach Gentiles the truth about Jesus and salvation (John 4:22).

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