Guns use people, says Archbishop of Canterbury

Dec 23, 2012 Full story: Ekklesia Daily News 27

In his final BBC Radio 4 Thought for the Day before retiring, Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams has talked about the corruption of a gun-toting culture.

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“Jesus is Lord”

Since: Aug 11

Greenwood, Indiana

#1 Dec 26, 2012
Some people may forget something, like if it wasn't for guns the United States wouldn't have any freedom. (FACT)

“Naturalism - Nature is Enough”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#2 Dec 26, 2012
ThePreacherman01 wrote:
Some people may forget something, like if it wasn't for guns the United States wouldn't have any freedom.(FACT)
Is the 'freedom' you have really worth the price you are paying?

Since: Aug 08

Somewhere in Ireland

#3 Dec 26, 2012
ThePreacherman01 wrote:
Some people may forget something, like if it wasn't for guns the United States wouldn't have any freedom.(FACT)
Is that something your precious Jesus would approve of, people running around with a gun that they could use to kill another human being? Then again, maybe he would approve, after all his father was into killing humans in a big way, wasn't he preacherman?

Since: Aug 12

Shelbyville, MI

#4 Dec 27, 2012
The way the laws and judicial precedent currently read if localities want to experiment with local safety "gun control" regulation that fuels the high death by violence rate in Chicago, D.C. and England it is allowed.
QUITTNER

Toronto, Canada

#5 Dec 29, 2012
4:10 pm, Saturday, December 29, 2012:
RE: Guns use people, says Archbishop of Canterbury
..... I am reminded of the British years ago; they used to send all(?) of their criminals to Australia. Why not send all those who intend to kill, despite their own religion saying DO NOT KILL!, to some place out there somewhere - maybe Antarctica is still left that would accept killers? With their killing machines. And the remaining population would then be encouraged TO LOVE THEIR NEIGHBOURS!
..... Get rid of ALL people in a given country who will/would use guns to kill humans, then no guns would be needed there to defend themselves against people with guns. That's difficult, but maybe it can be done?
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#6 Dec 29, 2012
par five wrote:
<quoted text>
Is that something your precious Jesus would approve of, people running around with a gun that they could use to kill another human being? Then again, maybe he would approve, after all his father was into killing humans in a big way, wasn't he preacherman?
Obviously the Anglican archbishop is a product of his English environment.
Guns are inanimate objects and therefore incapable of dictating actions to animate humans.
Guns, like other tools, have a place in the hands of the skilled.

You are aware that in the first century guns had not yet been invented.

But when Jesus' earthly ministry was nearing it's end, Jesus counseled his disciples at the last supper in Luke 23;

"He said to them,
“When I sent you forth without a money bag or a sack or sandals,
were you in need of anything?”
“No, nothing,“ they replied.

He said to them,
“But now one who has a money bag should take it,
and likewise a sack,
and one who does not have a sword
should sell his cloak and buy one.
For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me,
namely, He was counted among the wicked;
and indeed what is written about me is coming to fulfillment.”

Then they said,
“Lord, look, there are two swords here.”
But he replied,“It is enough!”

Onward Christian soldiers.
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#7 Dec 29, 2012
QUITTNER wrote:
4:10 pm, Saturday, December 29, 2012:
RE: Guns use people, says Archbishop of Canterbury
..... I am reminded of the British years ago; they used to send all(?) of their criminals to Australia. Why not send all those who intend to kill, despite their own religion saying DO NOT KILL!, to some place out there somewhere - maybe Antarctica is still left that would accept killers? With their killing machines. And the remaining population would then be encouraged TO LOVE THEIR NEIGHBOURS!
..... Get rid of ALL people in a given country who will/would use guns to kill humans, then no guns would be needed there to defend themselves against people with guns. That's difficult, but maybe it can be done?
That's already taken place, Quittner.

When England sent their criminals to Australia, they sent the puritan fundamentalists to America.

You know why Australia got the criminals instead of the fundies?
Australia had first choice.

Since: Oct 07

Truro, UK

#8 Dec 29, 2012
Ecclesiastes 9
13 This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me:

14 There was a little city, and few men within it; and there came a great king against it, and besieged it, and built great bulwarks against it:

15 Now there was found in it a poor wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city; yet no man remembered that same poor man.

16 Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard.

17 The words of wise men are heard in quiet more than the cry of him that ruleth among fools.

18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.

Since: Oct 07

Truro, UK

#9 Dec 29, 2012
Isaiah 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains,
and shall be exalted above the hills;
and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say,
Come ye,
and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations,
and shall rebuke many people:
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:
nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.

Since: Oct 07

Truro, UK

#10 Dec 29, 2012
Micah 4

King James Version (KJV)

4 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.

Since: Aug 08

Somewhere in Ireland

#11 Dec 29, 2012
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Obviously the Anglican archbishop is a product of his English environment.
Guns are inanimate objects and therefore incapable of dictating actions to animate humans.
Guns, like other tools, have a place in the hands of the skilled..........

Onward Christian soldiers.
Well considering the number of people deliberately killed by guns in the USA I guess that shows there is a great number of people there skilled in the use of a gun and on the other side of the coin, considering the number of people accidently shot in the USA, there is also a great number of people not so skilled in the use of a gun. I have to admit that I am at a loss as to why so many in the gun lobby deny that America has a gun problem. They quote the second ammendment as though it was the second commandment, but seem to stick their heads in the sand when it comes to the appalling number of gun related deaths. Why do you think it is that the vast majority of people in the UK do not own nor ever want to own a gun? To me the gun problem in America will not be addressed properly until there is a real recognition that there is a problem. For America's sake I hope they recognize the problem sooner, rather than later!
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#12 Dec 29, 2012
par five wrote:
<quoted text>
Well considering the number of people deliberately killed by guns in the USA I guess that shows there is a great number of people there skilled in the use of a gun and on the other side of the coin, considering the number of people accidently shot in the USA, there is also a great number of people not so skilled in the use of a gun. I have to admit that I am at a loss as to why so many in the gun lobby deny that America has a gun problem. They quote the second ammendment as though it was the second commandment, but seem to stick their heads in the sand when it comes to the appalling number of gun related deaths. Why do you think it is that the vast majority of people in the UK do not own nor ever want to own a gun? To me the gun problem in America will not be addressed properly until there is a real recognition that there is a problem. For America's sake I hope they recognize the problem sooner, rather than later!
In 1985 the worst domestic terrorist attack in USA history, killing dozens of innocent children at day care and many adults, was executed by a truck bomb in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

The attack killed 168 people and injured over 800.
The bomb consisted of about 5,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and nitromethane, a motor-racing fuel.

On 9/11 nearly three thousand innocent people were killed by box cutters and airliners.

So what do you think, Par?
Should we ban fertilizer, hi-test gasoline, box cutters and airplanes too?
Sceptical_Mal

Ringwood, Australia

#13 Dec 30, 2012
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
In 1985 the worst domestic terrorist attack in USA history, killing dozens of innocent children at day care and many adults, was executed by a truck bomb in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.
The attack killed 168 people and injured over 800.
The bomb consisted of about 5,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and nitromethane, a motor-racing fuel.
On 9/11 nearly three thousand innocent people were killed by box cutters and airliners.
So what do you think, Par?
Should we ban fertilizer, hi-test gasoline, box cutters and airplanes too?
Is your question serious? To me it's obviously not but why the sarcasm?

I would imagine that ammonium nitrate is controlled more strictly in the US as it is here now and even if nitromethane is banned well diesel as anyone knows is more than adequate when making ANFO.

Please answer this - has anyone actually suggested you ban guns completely? No, they haven't.

Since: Aug 08

Somewhere in Ireland

#14 Dec 30, 2012
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
In 1985 the worst domestic terrorist attack in USA history, killing dozens of innocent children at day care and many adults, was executed by a truck bomb in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.
The attack killed 168 people and injured over 800.
The bomb consisted of about 5,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and nitromethane, a motor-racing fuel.
On 9/11 nearly three thousand innocent people were killed by box cutters and airliners.
So what do you think, Par?
Should we ban fertilizer, hi-test gasoline, box cutters and airplanes too?
That is a very poor argument, the sort of argument the gun lobby use to deflect attention away from the carnage caused by guns. Terrorist attacks like the one you mentioned are thankfully very rare in your country and while it is true that many things we use every day can end up killing someone, things like elecrticity, cars and planes, those things are not made for the purpose of killing, whereas guns are. All I can say Cisco is that if you look at the number of gun related deaths in the US each year, both deliberate and accidental, and you think that there isn't a problem, then I am at a loss as to what to say to you!
swxxxt

Pittsburgh, PA

#15 Dec 30, 2012
youtube.com/watch... ……Gung-Ho Man an Gun Control
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#16 Dec 30, 2012
ThePreacherman01 wrote:
Some people may forget something, like if it wasn't for guns the United States wouldn't have any freedom.(FACT)
That's just BS. A singular tool/device did NOT build this nation, nor create our legal system, and a Gun was most certainly the inspiration of the FF's.

People gave this Nation its freedoms! Not a tool, tool!

Your almighty Gun also took freedoms away from many people in this nation, like Blacks, and then the Japanese in WW2. And it still does so today when as a society we ignore the plight of the areas where the criminals rule the streets and people can not move around freely, or have to worry about wearing some Gang-colors in the wrong area...
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#17 Dec 30, 2012
- and the Gun was most certainly NOT the inspiration of the FF's.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#18 Dec 30, 2012
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
In 1985 the worst domestic terrorist attack in USA history, killing dozens of innocent children at day care and many adults, was executed by a truck bomb in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.
The attack killed 168 people and injured over 800.
The bomb consisted of about 5,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and nitromethane, a motor-racing fuel.
On 9/11 nearly three thousand innocent people were killed by box cutters and airliners.
So what do you think, Par?
Should we ban fertilizer, hi-test gasoline, box cutters and airplanes too?
This always a specious argument.

No one is speaking about a total gun ban. But rather a more sane policy towards the acquisition of Assault rifles/guns.

You want to hunt, fine, buy a hunting rifle. You dont need an assault rifle to hunt.

You feel the need to plan to protect your Family, business, etc - even if you're doing so in the opposite direction of the statistical likelihood of being needed - fine. Follow the laws, and get one. But you dont need an assault rifle, in fact most gun experts will tell you that such a device is counter-productive to protecting oneself.

This entire discussion always goes off the rails because of the absurd arguments of people like you and the over-reaction of those who see Guns as the initiator of bad behavior.

Distill the entire argument down to these points.
1. product access, 2. ownership parameters, 3. actual need.

If we would discuss this focusing on these 3 pts, we might get someplace saner in our laws and cultural attitudes towards guns.

The chances that my bags of fertilizer accidentally killing anyone, or being stolen to kill someone is...well...so absurd an idea...its not worth addressing.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#19 Dec 30, 2012
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Obviously the Anglican archbishop is a product of his English environment.
Guns are inanimate objects and therefore incapable of dictating actions to animate humans.
Guns, like other tools, have a place in the hands of the skilled.
You are aware that in the first century guns had not yet been invented.
This is where nuance escapes so many people.

Here's the real heart of what the Archbishop meant. You have a device in your possession that can settle your arguments, any and all of them for good. Big or small or the ridiculous, they can all be settled with this device so that YOU win.

It doesnt require any sort of thinking, or negotiating, or real effort on your part. A squabble over where you and your neighbor should place your garbage cans, or where to park your cars - can be finally settled for good. At first you might talk, or simply ignore the intrusions of the neighbor or he you. Then you yell...then you/he push and shove..then you/he damage personal property. Finally, one of the parties decides, "I'm gonna settle this once and for all" -because during this entire argument life-span that Device has been "calling" to you. Sitting there each day reminding you or him that, "I can settle this matter, use me and I can put an end to it. You know you're right, you're always right! I can settle this!"

So finally you or the neighbor acts on it and one of you ends up dead, or severely wounded and someone goes to jail. All for what? An argument over the absurd.

The gun culture and mind-set in the USA provides each of us a weapon of final argument. And skill and everything else touted as preventative to misuse - is not something that can be relied on to always stop a person from misusing a gun under the right conditions.

The Gun in the US is seen as tool of Final Argument where the wielder always wins. Its cultural, its ingrained in our entertainment and mythos, and its 100% ridiculous for this so called Xtian Nation to think that way...

Our obsession with Guns as a means to settle arguments is insane. We need to look at guns as tools for selective usages...not a personal device to settle the scores.
Post Turtle

Ash Flat, AR

#20 Dec 30, 2012
NO NO NO you can not take my guns. Let me tell you all something the security detail for Obama's two kids consists of at least three count em THREE secret service agents each; And aside from a semi - auto handgun each is armed with a full auto assault weapon. Never mind what they have in the truck. FBI stats show that most killings in the USA are not done with guns. And more laws will only affect those people who obey the law. Remember the key element of criminality is the violation of law.

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