The Battle of The Bible

The Battle of The Bible

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Anonymous

Australia

#8 Oct 17, 2013
Very enlightening. History has always been written by the victors of course.
Huh

Sussex, WI

#9 Oct 17, 2013
Anonymous wrote:
Very enlightening. History has always been written by the victors of course.
To the victor goes the spoils.
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#10 Oct 17, 2013
all good and right information...just what happened in the last post #7 I'm not sure about...the sudden shift is out of place...not sure its purpose..?

But we know the Xtian replies will align along a few (thin) ideas.

Where Israel never reached its full border potential is the fault of the Jews inability to keep the law, and their faith. We know this is the Xtians basic theme for taking over Judaism as their own. Its Xtians who properly interpret the OT, especially Fundy basement Preachers.

Once the Second Comings expiration date appeared to have pass, the Xtian church fathers scrambled to reinvent these "prophecies", and they did. And that is all that matters to Xtians today or a few hundred years ago.

Now xtians, American Fundy Xtians will never admit these church fathers scrambled to fix things, but that they always were this way. Another of their long standing lies, and belligerent denial of the historical records.

And we know these same Fundy Xtians outright deny that the writers of the gospels are truly unknown. Their names are there at the top of the page and that's all that matters. Contrary to the known historical records. They would hold their breath till they pass out in their defense of the belief that Mark wrote, Mark, and so on...
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#11 Oct 17, 2013
Huh wrote:
<quoted text>
To the victor goes the spoils.
Who wants whats spoiled?
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#12 Oct 17, 2013
and the other tired cliche that will pop-up is -

That Second Coming time-line was not using normal human counting methods, but those of God. You know the one that makes a God-day a few hundred thousand years long...you know that screwy math.

That all the prophecies were talking about an "Age" and not a few dozen years. That this New Age among the New Covenanteers (tm) would last many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many...many more years than those of the lifetimes of the very people Jesus was talking to - his best buds. Or even Paul when referring to himself and his best buddies.

Throw out all regular counting methods, despite no evidence that Jesus, or Paul, was using any other counting methods than the normal methods currently in use in those days.

This tossing out the NORMAL, of the regularly defined and understood meanings of terms is a common tactic of the Apologists.(which BTW is a term that most American Evangelical Fundy Americans bristle at...they hate it because it reeks of Catholicism! Roman and Orthodox Catholics (ordained or lay) are the original Apologists, and that drives the AEFX's batshyte crazy! That they rely so very much on Catholics!)

The Apologists made up the Rule that when it was necessary, they could completely change the meanings of commonly understood terms and numbers, when it suited their needs to explain either new (and most often controversial doctrinal matters) or traditional circulating beliefs that were deemed acceptable to the Canon of scripture, and that of the ruling Churches ideologies. Both in the East and the West. Both where the power of the split Roman Empires sat.

Such an example is that of the battle over the Doctrine of the Trinity. A hotly debated matter of theology in the yearly years of Xtian-dom. Many times a deadly one for many parties...

It all revolved around the greek term "Homoousios", of the same substance, of the same exact, replicated substance.(replicated is my term) Was Jesus of the exact same substance as The Father and was therefore THE Father at the same time.(The HS is added a little later but not at first! Did you know that Fundys?) Or was Jesus a man, who was directly infused with this substance, of this God. And few minor variations thereof...

What was most obvious was that the term "homoousis" is not ever used in ANY of the then circulating Xtians texts. Or even the OT! Can't find it...no where...not to be found. But what came to be the Nicene side (vs the Arianism side) had greater political power than their enemies. Which it needs to be said is where the core argument arose; the other side was seen as the enemy, a real and dangerous enemy rather than just an opposing side of the same coin. Which was THE normal POV in the known-world's general POV about such controversies, a POV that was heavily influenced by the Greek opinion that debate and disagreement over philosophical ideas is...well holy!

But Xtianity was about to change all that. It was about to plunge the known world, at least in the West into the Dark ages, where the freedom of thought was denigrated by the Church as heretical, and very dangerous to the World at large. That freedom of thought and healthy debate was a Sin. That to question what was a still burgeoning Religious Ideology, was a Sin that must be punished and punished in this world by men! By the Men of the Church, of the ONLY and Right Church.

And in this NEW World, where this ONE Church Religion became more and more critical to the POWER of the "Politicians", the Ruling classes. So the State, and their Rich benefactors quickly got involved and managed to settle these early controversies in an effort to consolidate power. They demanded Councils rule on Doctrine, rule on faith rule on what people could and absolutely could not believe - rule on what was previously the Individuals choice of THOUGHTS.

-------
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#13 Oct 17, 2013
So that by the late 300's, early 400's the general and, very Greek influenced belief on the known-world, was that the matter of the individuals personal thought-choice, which was deemed absolutely personal up to this point in history, was not to be honored. That the Organized and Sanctioned Thoughts of the Xtian Churches was to take over.

And it did. And things went nearly black.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#15 Oct 18, 2013
Preacherman: Lies from the pit of hell.

Romans Road: Come to Jesus and be saved like me.

Truthsayer: No factual basis. I hate Catholics.

Laci Ann: Cookie Parker is fat and ugly. My hair is real.

Nettiebelle:
God's Plan Unfolds (257)
The Father "destined us in love to be his sons" through "the spirit of sonship" (Eph 1:4-5, 9). This plan comes from the Trinity and unfolds in creation in the missions of the Son and the Spirit, and in the mission of the Church.
The Work of All Three (258)
This divine plan is the common work of the three divine persons. However, each person does the work according to his unique personal qualities. "One God and Father from whom all things are and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one Holy Spirit in whom all things are (Council of Constantinople II). The qualities of the three divine persons are revealed in the missions of Jesus and the Spirit.
Revealing Each Person (259)
God's work in history reveals the Trinity (what is proper to each divine person and what is proper to their one divine nature). The Christian life is a communion with all three persons. Whoever glorifies the Father glorifies also the Son and Spirit.
Inviting All (260)
God wants every creature to enter into the unity of the Trinity. Jesus promised, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him" (Jn 14:23).
"O my God, Trinity, help me to forget myself entirely so to establish myself in you, unmovable and peaceful as if my soul were already in eternity" (St. Elizabeth of the Trinity).
-- WeBeCatholics.com

15DL: Peace on you.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#16 Oct 18, 2013
Huntington Guy: WEDGIE
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#17 Oct 18, 2013
Hardie-Har-Har wrote:
<quoted text>
You're right to point out that ... "the sudden shift is out of place", Punisher.... My fail!
I should've clarified first that It's to be expected (if Bible Apologetics play true to form) for Christian Fundamentalists to claim that "The Bible Battle" onslaught outlined above was prophesied and that such bible-criticism is further proof that the Bible is inspired!...
Then I should've injected a line to precede and introduce the "Two Witnesses" prophecy of Rev-11 as one possible way in which the Bible Thumpin' fundies will discover in their scramble to find vindication for why their biblegod allowed "The Battle of the Bible!" ...
A line like the one you used above would suffice,... to bring my use of Rev-11 as a most fitting closure for my 7-posts detailing the
"Battle" into logical context with this thread!
To Wit: "But we know the Xtian replies will align along a few (thin) ideas (such as, etc.)." - Pun
With that bit interposed, then,... the following would have made more sense to you,...
I do believe, Pun!
(With that the following is put into context; ... i.e., as one way the fundie apologists will try to invent a fitting Bible-based prophecy that makes the "Battle" fit in to the biblegod's plan!)
Post #7>> The mystically prophetic Book of Revelations foretells a tale of "Two Witnesses" in Rev 11:3-12. There, naturally, is much conjecture and confusion left for the imaginations of the Christian Fundies and hard-core Bible Thumpers as to what or who the "TW" are.
One theory claims that the Old and New Testaments comprising the Bible are the two witnesses. Others say they are Moses & Elijah, etc.; ... with altogether over a dozen interpretations flouted by Biblical eschatologists....
Since they're all eschatologically conjectural, like all such religiously-claimed prescience,(they will likely) play on the theory that their double-covenant Bible (OT-&-NT) is really the "Two Witnesses" predicted in Revelation 11:3-12 and, thus,... the Bible will be "killed" by critics, but,... as Rev-11 predicts,... God will magically resurrect it as his True Word!
The Rev-11 tale predicts that the TWs will be destroyed and left to rot in public for some 3-and-a-half years (1260 days),... after which, the Bible will magically be restored!
We can definitely see the Bible being ripped to shreds today and that soon it will be dead!
Are we to then expect that in a few years after it's demise that some major discovery will shock the world and vindicate the Bible as really being the "Inspired Word of God!" (???)
YOUR THOUGHTS on "The Battle of The Bible",... of course,... are welcome! <<
I hope this satisfies your Q on my use of Rev-11, and brings things into context, Pun!...
Also, thanx for taking time to respond with your well thought-out and detailed postage!
Hardie!
Ah! I felt there was a shift without preamble...all good now!

“God Loves Ilks!”

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#18 Oct 18, 2013
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
Preacherman: Lies from the pit of hell.
Romans Road: Come to Jesus and be saved like me.
Truthsayer: No factual basis. I hate Catholics.
Laci Ann: Cookie Parker is fat and ugly. My hair is real.
Nettiebelle:
God's Plan Unfolds (257)
The Father "destined us in love to be his sons" through "the spirit of sonship" (Eph 1:4-5, 9). This plan comes from the Trinity and unfolds in creation in the missions of the Son and the Spirit, and in the mission of the Church.
The Work of All Three (258)
This divine plan is the common work of the three divine persons. However, each person does the work according to his unique personal qualities. "One God and Father from whom all things are and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one Holy Spirit in whom all things are (Council of Constantinople II). The qualities of the three divine persons are revealed in the missions of Jesus and the Spirit.
Revealing Each Person (259)
God's work in history reveals the Trinity (what is proper to each divine person and what is proper to their one divine nature). The Christian life is a communion with all three persons. Whoever glorifies the Father glorifies also the Son and Spirit.
Inviting All (260)
God wants every creature to enter into the unity of the Trinity. Jesus promised, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him" (Jn 14:23).
"O my God, Trinity, help me to forget myself entirely so to establish myself in you, unmovable and peaceful as if my soul were already in eternity" (St. Elizabeth of the Trinity).
-- WeBeCatholics.com
15DL: Peace on you.
Oh my, 15th, I am humbled.

NDanger

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

#20 Oct 19, 2013
What is 'amazing' here is the fact that you went to all this work,'painstakingly' hand typing up all of this information.

I am sure you really must be disappointed that everyone here (other than your minions) have done the proverbial 'hi-five", glad-handing, or the all to well overdone 'pat on the back'... are basically ignoring this thread.

In essence, this should be posted on the atheist forum where you could actually be glorified by your cohorts.

What I am getting at is that as I read this, I see how desperate satan is getting, creating a mockery out of you/hisself as really? no believer here cares? Not only do we 'not care', it actually solidifies our Faith by knowing what a 'tool' you really are...

NDanger

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

#21 Oct 19, 2013
clarification:

(other than your minions having done the proverbial 'hi-five','glad-handing', or the all to well overdone 'pat on the back')...
Punisher

Brentwood, NY

#24 Oct 20, 2013
NDanger wrote:
What is 'amazing' here is the fact that you went to all this work,'painstakingly' hand typing up all of this information.
I am sure you really must be disappointed that everyone here (other than your minions) have done the proverbial 'hi-five", glad-handing, or the all to well overdone 'pat on the back'... are basically ignoring this thread.
In essence, this should be posted on the atheist forum where you could actually be glorified by your cohorts.
What I am getting at is that as I read this, I see how desperate satan is getting, creating a mockery out of you/hisself as really? no believer here cares? Not only do we 'not care', it actually solidifies our Faith by knowing what a 'tool' you really are...
LOL!

Xtians avoid this stuff out of fear. American Fundy Xtians fear education more than Satan! Where once American Xtian held education up on a pedestal they now vilify it...unless its conforms to the non-reality of Fundy beliefs...
Punisher

Brentwood, NY

#26 Oct 20, 2013
NDanger wrote:
clarification:
(other than your minions having done the proverbial 'hi-five','glad-handing', or the all to well overdone 'pat on the back')...
This is where you Believers always get it wrong. Atheists are not followers...we might agree on various points, but we dont follow people blindly. More importantly we dont follow Beliefs, faith based beliefs blindly.

Its that we're not prone to getting in-line that so angers Xtians like you. Its what has always angered Xtians for centuries - people who won't get in-line and feed from the public trough of ideas and beliefs. One belief, one idea, one way for all.

Xtian-dom from its legalized beginnings came down on Humanity with a sledge-hammer of conform or die! Conform or be excommunicated, exiled from the community of Believers. Think as "We" tell you, believe as we tell you, worship as we tell you!

Which is counter-intuitive to the average Human. Because we all see and feel - experience Life in our ways. Sure there's that Venn-diagram sliver of overlap similarity - but spiritual ideas and beliefs and how they manifest for the individual can NOT be defined for each and every individual based on a very narrow telling of a very limited set of ancient manuscripts. That even among its ardent followers causes debate and controversy!

The lust of Xtianity and Xtians to lock these things down to their sectarian set of ideas, or now various mash-ups of them by all these arm-chair preachers - has been its s greatest "sin" against humanity. The desire to create a single Mind-set is Xtianities - all Religions - weakest link and is whats causing them to fail for so many of the young, and those who recognize there is no singular Life experience, there is no ONE way to think and believe in matters of one spiritual journey thru Life. We can share stuff, but we cant define it all one way! Superstitious mumbo-jumbo that runs counter to peoples REAL life experiences simply can not just be believed and taken on the faith of those who swallow it whole, without much critique.(I simply cannot believe a donkey ever spoke a word to anyone! Or a female was inseminated with magic!)

But that drives dogmatic Xtians batshyte crazy! Conform or die, conform or be vilified and/or marginalized, better still exiled - still rings across the lands as the basic theme of American Fundy Evangelical Xtianity!

Its why American Fundy Xtians seek to find so many targets of their enmity and wrath. If its not the gay community, its secularists, its liberals, its women, its Obama, its Miley Cyrus, its Academia, Eastern elites...its the Store/Biz that wont let an employee flaunt their faith by festooning their work vest with crosses and hate-speech buttons, its Halloween costumes, its Harry potter...the list goes on and on...

Xtianity will adapt to reality or it will wither on the vine.

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#27 Oct 20, 2013
There are some peculiar things about the God of the bible;

How did He create himself?

Why can’t He then create something impossible to the elementary laws of physics?

Why did He create a world and humanity totally under the laws of chaos and only with some random advices given by an old book for our primitive and modest help?

Why doesn’t this God interfere actively to stop a confused humanity from all the nonsense we are performing, not even once in thousands of years?
Punisher

Brentwood, NY

#28 Oct 20, 2013
This Nation is currently in the beginning stages of a Social Revolution. Which has to do with Conformity to one POV. Its why Washington is sinking further into partisan politics and ideological warfare.

The US has long been promulgating a mythos of Individuality. Of the lone, rogue Individual going off into the wilderness and conquering the landscape and themselves. Finding a purpose that suits them and their personal beliefs, needs and wants.

Except at the same time the general culture has long been touting conformity. Its most obvious "force" for those ends has been Pop-culture. Which demands conformity to a uniform (jeans and varsity jackets circa the 50's,but that didn't end there) to a mode of romantic behavior (love the one your with ala 60's) up to now where if you're not fondling the latest electronic device you're an outsider, a freak...just not cool. Or maybe its your car? Or your hair products, or that you dont watch Breaking Bad.

But we still cling to the mythos of the all powerful Individual - in what is now termed the Outliers. We now "seek" to be Outliers, people out there doing all the important creating and innovating - which at the end of the day results in nothing but more conformity to whatever it is these Outliers have dreamed up for us to flock to.

The reality however, is most people in the US are truly afraid to be Outliers, to be a true Individual - because they have likely run into the fist of conformity somewhere in their lives. Likely it started as a child when eventually the adults demand they stop thinking so freely and conform to their stuck-in-the-mud way of living.

Stuck in this conflict is traditional American Fundamentalist influenced Xtianity that demands conformity, while trying desperately to honor the individual.(after all its the individuals soul at stake) Which it fails miserably at...as it (Fundy xtian community) cant see the trees for the forest. It lumps all people that might exhibit a different set of beliefs as the Enemy. The enemy of their Beliefs and therefore their God and marks any thing different as delivered straight from Satan.

And the main catalyst of this burgeoning Revolution I speak of is the Internet. Its bringing, mostly the tech savvy youth, into contact with dozens and dozens of POV's - and far worse - KNOWLEDGE - knowledge that beats back conformity to an old, cliched and tiresome set of ideas (Xtianity) that has spent more time attacking people who are different, than making peace in the World.

Young people are very much concerned and worried about their Individuality, they want to be treated as an individual with their own hopes and dreams and needs - but become conflicted and seriously stressed out about conforming to the general group, to what is deemed cool. Because of all the social pressures to conform to dogma, to get-in-line and drink the Kool-aid of conformity.

And right now, the way American Xtianty in this nation is manifesting, in its staunch positions that vilifies, say Gays, is finding less and less purchase. The youth know that their gay friends are not sick deviants, but that's what their Xtian parents and community demand they believe.! But the kids know better, and rebel. Or in some cases use the internet to further the Bullying and the hate, that in the past was at least squelched by adults who knew better. Now they can be immature all alone in their room - acting out what is deemed non-reality, but which has very real effects on people.

Many adults who are curious use the Web to explore and meet new people of different backgrounds - and many,(most!) see that what we share far out weighs dogmatic beliefs and their institutions that demand conformity to their narrow and ancient belief systems.

But many seek nothing but the same POV, seek nothing but another like-mind and opinions. And that goes for all sides...be they liberal, conservative or all the places in between. I dont want differing POV's I want conformity.
Punisher

Brentwood, NY

#29 Oct 20, 2013
Mr Ironhart wrote:
There are some peculiar things about the God of the bible;
How did He create himself?
Why can’t He then create something impossible to the elementary laws of physics?
Why did He create a world and humanity totally under the laws of chaos and only with some random advices given by an old book for our primitive and modest help?

1. Why doesn’t this God interfere actively to stop a confused humanity from all the nonsense we are performing, not even once in thousands of years?
1. And why when he's alleged to have acted he decided on a truly gruesome means...?(Jesus' crucifixion)

God so loved the world that sent his only Son...to be slaughtered! How that falls into a definition of love escapes me.

If I may add to your list Mr Iron, why does he hide?

NDanger

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

#30 Oct 20, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
This is where you Believers always get it wrong. Atheists are not followers...we might agree on various points, but we dont follow people blindly. More importantly we dont follow Beliefs, faith based beliefs blindly.
Its that we're not prone to getting in-line that so angers Xtians like you. Its what has always angered Xtians for centuries - people who won't get in-line and feed from the public trough of ideas and beliefs. One belief, one idea, one way for all.
Xtian-dom from its legalized beginnings came down on Humanity with a sledge-hammer of conform or die! Conform or be excommunicated, exiled from the community of Believers. Think as "We" tell you, believe as we tell you, worship as we tell you!
Which is counter-intuitive to the average Human. Because we all see and feel - experience Life in our ways. Sure there's that Venn-diagram sliver of overlap similarity - but spiritual ideas and beliefs and how they manifest for the individual can NOT be defined for each and every individual based on a very narrow telling of a very limited set of ancient manuscripts. That even among its ardent followers causes debate and controversy!
The lust of Xtianity and Xtians to lock these things down to their sectarian set of ideas, or now various mash-ups of them by all these arm-chair preachers - has been its s greatest "sin" against humanity. The desire to create a single Mind-set is Xtianities - all Religions - weakest link and is whats causing them to fail for so many of the young, and those who recognize there is no singular Life experience, there is no ONE way to think and believe in matters of one spiritual journey thru Life. We can share stuff, but we cant define it all one way! Superstitious mumbo-jumbo that runs counter to peoples REAL life experiences simply can not just be believed and taken on the faith of those who swallow it whole, without much critique.(I simply cannot believe a donkey ever spoke a word to anyone! Or a female was inseminated with magic!)
But that drives dogmatic Xtians batshyte crazy! Conform or die, conform or be vilified and/or marginalized, better still exiled - still rings across the lands as the basic theme of American Fundy Evangelical Xtianity!
Its why American Fundy Xtians seek to find so many targets of their enmity and wrath. If its not the gay community, its secularists, its liberals, its women, its Obama, its Miley Cyrus, its Academia, Eastern elites...its the Store/Biz that wont let an employee flaunt their faith by festooning their work vest with crosses and hate-speech buttons, its Halloween costumes, its Harry potter...the list goes on and on...
Xtianity will adapt to reality or it will wither on the vine.
BS...wheat and chaff, sheep and goats... need more?

All foretold... we will be hated... for these times are at hand

NDanger

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

#31 Oct 20, 2013
Hardie-Har-Har wrote:
<quoted text>
Before I go, ND, I must ask U some very pertinent Qs:
I'm trying very Hardie to imagine you with a personality, ND; ... So, with that in mind (and I ask these Qs only because I like U),
> Are U Just Jealous Because The Voices Are Talking To Me?
> Don't get insulted, but is it your job to spread ignorance?
> Does your train of thought have a caboose?
> As an outsider, what do you think of the human race?
Blondie called the welfare dept to ask,...
"Do you have a recipe book for cooking food stamps?"
Blondie failed the test for a "Proofreading" job in an M&M plant.
Man: Will you sleep with me for a million dollars?
Woman: Okay!
Man: Will you sleep with me for five dollars?
Woman: NO!!... What kind of woman do you think I am??
Man: We've already established that!,...
Now we are haggling about the price!
Hardie-Har-Har!
psst:
The "Agnostic Forum" sent me over here to share the truth with U!!
I feel sorry for you... There are meds for 'The Voices'...
Apparently it's your job...as seen in your post...
Just a locomotive rolling along...
On a race to nowhere in a hurry...

NDanger

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

#32 Oct 20, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
1. And why when he's alleged to have acted he decided on a truly gruesome means...?(Jesus' crucifixion)
God so loved the world that sent his only Son...to be slaughtered! How that falls into a definition of love escapes me.
If I may add to your list Mr Iron, why does he hide?
HE doesn't hide at all...you are just too blind to see!

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