“Only Biblical methods will”

Since: Apr 10

bring others to Christ

#41 Feb 19, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
I dont know about that but to each his own. Thanks for answring
Yes, to each their own interpretations and convictions. Your welcome, and I am certain we will chat on other thread someday, until then, God bless you and yours.
socci

Lawson, MO

#42 Feb 19, 2013

The Amish avoid modern cars and electronics not so much due to the Bible rather they dont want to get a SSN or any licenses. If Moses were here today he's probably drive a big truck.))
socci

Lawson, MO

#43 Feb 19, 2013
Bear wrote:
Its not in there, but the only reason Christians worship on Sunday is because the catholic church said so 1800 yrs ago, but at this point and time it is too late to change things.
But no where in the New Testament does it say that keeping the sabbath is a requirement for your salvation. Jesus never condemned anyone for not keeping the Sabbath, he never taught the apostles to enforce the Sabbath on others and the Apostles never taught the Church to enforce the Sabbath.
So while the Sabbath is Saturday, it was a sign between God and Israel under the Mosaic Covenant and the Blood of the Messiah and the Holy Spirit is what seals us in the New Covenant.

Bear, as grafted in Christians are also to follow God's law.

Odd some only want to say this about the Sabbath but not the other nine Commandments.

Jesus did tell us to keep the commandments numerous times. That would include the Sabbath.
-
Hebrews 4:4-8 For he spoke in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ... For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest to the people of God.
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#44 Feb 20, 2013
Earth Child 1 wrote:
<quoted text>You can't be exposed to any modern equipment, hon. That means no car, cell phones, TV, nothing that is powered by electricity, batteries or gasoline(only the use of firewood and oils in the raw allowed), no exchange of money, modern medical care, no blended fibers in clothing, etc..........right down to the type of food you're allowed to eat and how it's prepared and consumed. The list goes on, but you have to read all the laws in the OT, which almost all applies to the NT too.
Christians are not under the Old Covenant. We who keep the Sabbath keep it because Jesus said it was made for man.

Sabbath means rest or to cease, all the rules and regulations that you've stated are fine for you if you choose to keep the Sabbath, but they do not apply to everyone else.

New Covenant Christians should rest on the Sabbath solely because God made it for us, but the regulations about what we can or can't do should be only made by the individual between him/her and God.
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#45 Feb 20, 2013
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
Define 'keeper'.
Why? You don't understand the word keep?
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#46 Feb 20, 2013
Anonymous wrote:
YES, there are Christians who go to church on Saturdays
https://plus.google.com/106153697022721618907
But that wasn't the question. The question was, are there any here?
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#47 Feb 20, 2013
Earth Child 1 wrote:
<quoted text>Really!?!? I can understand if you don't know anything about the Amish, but because the Amish are Christians doesn't mean they don't follow the OT laws. The Amish observe Sunday as the sabbath due to Christianity.
Who cares what the Amish wrongly call Sunday. God is the one that made the Sabbath, so he is the one that should tell us when it is. He says it's the seventh day, not the first day.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#48 Feb 20, 2013
Frank wrote:
<quoted text>
Where in the Tanakh is this stated?
It doesn't matter. Biblical Hebrews based the Sabbath on a lunar month but modern Hebrews, along with the rest of the World, base the calendar, and thus the days of the week, on a solar year. If you wish to really keep the 'Sabbath' you must first determine the first appearance of the crescent Moon. I'm not sure if you need one or two concurring opinions as to it's appearance. I remember seeing the crescent Moon last Spring and the first thing to come to mind was 'Just fourteen days 'til Passover'. So yeah, I guess I'm pretty well tuned into the Sabbathe but every day, God willing, should be dedicated to praise and glory of the Lord.

Holy mackerel, I better get busy or I'll be late for Mass.
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#49 Feb 20, 2013
Bear wrote:
If you turn on a light or use the internet on the Sabbath, someone somewhere has to work in order for you to get those privileges, so cant say you will not work on a Saturday and turn around and let it be okay for others to work so you can get power for your lights and TV and internet.
Saturday or Sunday as long as you give God a day of rest he will be satisfied. There is too much wickedness in this world for God to be worried about a Saturday vs Sunday
Bear, while I agree 100% with your basic concept, that there are more important things than Saturday or Sunday. I believe we need, as individual Christians, to really consider this.

Jesus said that whoever taught and kept the "least" of these commandments, would be great in the kingdom, and whoever taught not to keep and did not himself keep the "least" of these commandments would be called least in the kingdom.

I don't believe the Sabbath is a salvation issue. Keeping or not keeping it does not determine our salvation, only Jesus' blood can save, not law.

But..... Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father in Heaven will enter into the Kingdom of God. So we should, as individuals, consider what God's will is.

Is it God's will that we rest on any one day of the week?

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man. Our loving creator made a specific day just for us. He blessed it and made it holy.

I personally believe that since the bible says that all things that were made were made by Jesus, that it was Jesus that knelt in the dirt and made Adam. That would mean that it was Jesus that also made the Sabbath. Did he make it for the Jews? That's not what he said.

He said it was made for man, anthropos, mankind.

Though I do believe that the Sabbath is one of the least commandments, Jesus took the time 6,000 years ago to set aside one day, blessed one day, made holy one day, for what? For mankind.

It's theological debates on what's required for salvation that has muddied the waters of the Sabbath issue.

Is the Sabbath required for salvation? No, if it were then once we broke it in the least little way we'd be lost. Because the wages of sin is death. Just one sin and we must die.

Only the shed blood of Jesus can remove/cover our sins.

But, God still wants us to do his will. Why? Because we love him.

Shouldn't we consider that since God took the time to make one day for us that it's his will that we keep it.

Forget all the do's and dont's that people like to burden others with. The word Sabbath (a noun) comes from the verb shabath, which means to rest or cease. We should each, between ourselves and God, each determine how we are to rest before God.

What others say to do or don't do is unimportant.

I'm not concerned about covenants, or laws, or contracts, whether old or new. All that just confuses the simple issue and Satan loves to confuse us.

God made a specific day for us. Why do we not want to keep it?
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#50 Feb 20, 2013
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
It doesn't matter. Biblical Hebrews based the Sabbath on a lunar month but modern Hebrews, along with the rest of the World, base the calendar, and thus the days of the week, on a solar year. If you wish to really keep the 'Sabbath' you must first determine the first appearance of the crescent Moon. I'm not sure if you need one or two concurring opinions as to it's appearance. I remember seeing the crescent Moon last Spring and the first thing to come to mind was 'Just fourteen days 'til Passover'. So yeah, I guess I'm pretty well tuned into the Sabbathe but every day, God willing, should be dedicated to praise and glory of the Lord.
Holy mackerel, I better get busy or I'll be late for Mass.
No where in the bible is the Sabbath based upon the moon.

If it were based upon the moon it would be impossible to count seven Sabbaths to Pentecost and still have fifty days.

It doesn't say seven weeks, it says seven Sabbaths shall be complete.
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#51 Feb 20, 2013
Bear wrote:
Its not in there, but the only reason Christians worship on Sunday is because the catholic church said so 1800 yrs ago, but at this point and time it is too late to change things.
But no where in the New Testament does it say that keeping the sabbath is a requirement for your salvation. Jesus never condemned anyone for not keeping the Sabbath, he never taught the apostles to enforce the Sabbath on others and the Apostles never taught the Church to enforce the Sabbath.
So while the Sabbath is Saturday, it was a sign between God and Israel under the Mosaic Covenant and the Blood of the Messiah and the Holy Spirit is what seals us in the New Covenant.
A couple things that I hope you consider:

While it is not recorded that Jesus condemned someone for not keeping the Sabbath, that argument is a fallacious one. It is called an argument from silence.

The bible says that if all the words and works of Jesus were written down there'd be no book large enough. So that argument, while being worthy of consideration, really isn't valid.

The book of Genesis doesn't contain a command against murder or adultery but we know they were a sin based upon Cain and King Abimelech.

Next, you said the Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel under the Mosaic covenant. I have heard this stated many times, that the Sabbath was the sign of the old covenant, but that is not true.

The bible does call the Sabbath a sign, but it is not a sign that reveals Israel being under the covenant, it is a sign that reveals just who Israel's God was, and who it was that sanctified or made them Holy.

Exd 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them.

Since Jesus came to reveal the Father, and Jesus said that no man has ever heard the Father's voice, nor has anyone ever seen the Father, I personally believe that Israel's God was Jesus himself.

The bible says that all things were made by Jesus.

It also says:

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

Yet, here we have, the ones that went up on the mount with Moses seeing God.

Exd 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness.

So, if Jesus was the God El or Lord YHVH of the Old Testament, and he said the Sabbath was a sign that revealed that it was he who sanctified Israel. I ask, should not we keep the Sabbath because it is still a sign that reveals who our God is?

As I said, just some things to consider.
Frank

Fayetteville, NC

#52 Feb 20, 2013
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
It doesn't matter.
According to you. But then nothing in the Tanakh matters to you because you practice a different a religion that has no real connection to it--not meant to be an insult but its the truth.

peace

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#53 Feb 20, 2013
Frank wrote:
<quoted text>
According to you. But then nothing in the Tanakh matters to you because you practice a different a religion that has no real connection to it--not meant to be an insult but its the truth.
peace
Dig it. The Catholic Sabbath begins at sundown Saturday and ends at sundown Sunday. That's why the Saturday evening Mass is called a Sunday vigil, or watch.

Yeah, you may be right about the seven day weeks since there are special rules if the eve of Passover occurs on the Sabbath. Nevertheless, you are not a Hebrew. You are a cursed son of Ham. That's not meant to be an insult either.

God bless you.
Frank

Fayetteville, NC

#54 Feb 20, 2013
We'll see who's cursed in the end, lets just wait and see what happens in America and thoroughout most of Europe in the next couple of decades before any conclusions are reached.

Maybe I'm a Hebrew, maybe not. Either way, I practice Torah and you practice a form of christianized paganism.

What I do know is that the ORIGINAL Hebrews were most certainly not white guys, however at least SOME were black.

Shalom!
Ant

Palo Alto, CA

#55 Feb 20, 2013
Frank wrote:
We'll see who's cursed in the end, lets just wait and see what happens in America and thoroughout most of Europe in the next couple of decades before any conclusions are reached.
Maybe I'm a Hebrew, maybe not. Either way, I practice Torah and you practice a form of christianized paganism.
What I do know is that the ORIGINAL Hebrews were most certainly not white guys, however at least SOME were black.
Shalom!
Trying to live by Torah and justify yourself by the law will doom you in the end. It shows you have no faith and reply upon the Law instead of faith through Christ.

The purpose of the Torah was to show you your sins and your need for repentance and bring you to the Messiah, not to continue living under condemnation of the law.

Galatians 3:10-12
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Law Brings a Curse

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written,“Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[a] 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[b] 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall

Galatians 3:19-25
Purpose of the Law

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Frank

Fayetteville, NC

#56 Feb 20, 2013
Ant wrote:
<quoted text>
Trying to live by Torah and justify yourself by the law will doom you in the end. It shows you have no faith and reply upon the Law instead of faith through Christ.
The purpose of the Torah was to show you your sins and your need for repentance and bring you to the Messiah, not to continue living under condemnation of the law.
Galatians 3:10-12
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Law Brings a Curse
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written,“Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[a] 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[b] 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall
Galatians 3:19-25
Purpose of the Law
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
According to you.

Look. Regardless of my controversial interpretation of some of what's therein, I follow that which was revealed in the beginning, that upon which all of the rest claims to be built.

So, if there's any truth at all to the Abrahamic faith, then I'm safer following what was revealed in the beginning than that which came later and may or may not be correct.

As I've pointed out already, there are numerous reasons to reject Paul and much of what comprises the NT as there is much therein that is totally out of sync with that which was revealed first.

And while I do accept Yeshuah (with reservation), I havn't made him my man-god as such things are strictly (and plainly) forbidden by what was originally revealed.

I refuse to believe the doctrine that G-d became man and suicided himself for our benefit.

There ya go, all that we can do is look at evidence and base our conclusions upon that. Me, I choose to follow the plain meanings whereas others choose to peform--as one poster was once said--"interpretational gymnastics" in order to reach the conclusions upon which their faith is based.

And G-d knows best.

peace
Frank

Fayetteville, NC

#57 Feb 20, 2013
When it comes to my faith, there are only a handful things that I believe with anything resembling certainty.

1. I believe in the Sinai event

2. I believe that G-d is one.

3. I believe that much of what is contained in scripture (in the Tanakh) is inspired or recounts commandments and so forth given by men whom did so under the authority of G-d, but that not every word therein is the literal word of G-d

4. That the 4 gospels aren't the inspired word of G-d but are written accounts of the life of Yeshuah that originated as oral stories and may or may not accurately describe him.

Everything else is in the "maybe, maybe not" box.

There are however several other conclusions that I've reached based upon objective study of the scriptures and history.

Like I pointed out in another thread, it can be said that:

Yeshuah isn't G-d and any worship aimed at him is idolatry or "avodah zarah"

Paul was probaly an impostor or well-intended but misguided guy

Catholicism is in no way, shape, or form an authentic continuation of what the G-d of Moses revealed

There's probaly no such thing as a literal eternal hell-fire

The "devil" probaly isn't an invisible boogey man whom makes us sin.

Hebrews weren't white guys, though admittedly some of those white "jews" of today may have a Hebrew ancestor or two somewhere waaaay back in the family tree

There ya go, everything else is debatable.
Ant

Palo Alto, CA

#58 Feb 20, 2013
Frank wrote:
When it comes to my faith, there are only a handful things that I believe with anything resembling certainty.
1. I believe in the Sinai event
2. I believe that G-d is one.
3. I believe that much of what is contained in scripture (in the Tanakh) is inspired or recounts commandments and so forth given by men whom did so under the authority of G-d, but that not every word therein is the literal word of G-d
4. That the 4 gospels aren't the inspired word of G-d but are written accounts of the life of Yeshuah that originated as oral stories and may or may not accurately describe him.
Everything else is in the "maybe, maybe not" box.
There are however several other conclusions that I've reached based upon objective study of the scriptures and history.
Like I pointed out in another thread, it can be said that:
Yeshuah isn't G-d and any worship aimed at him is idolatry or "avodah zarah"
Paul was probaly an impostor or well-intended but misguided guy
Catholicism is in no way, shape, or form an authentic continuation of what the G-d of Moses revealed
There's probaly no such thing as a literal eternal hell-fire
The "devil" probaly isn't an invisible boogey man whom makes us sin.
Hebrews weren't white guys, though admittedly some of those white "jews" of today may have a Hebrew ancestor or two somewhere waaaay back in the family tree
There ya go, everything else is debatable.
In regards to the Gospels...If God could speak to Israel through Moses and the prophets, Why cant he speak to them and the Church through the Gospels and the letters of apostles as well? If your going to have faith to believe the front of the book, so might as well believe the whole thing as both are thousands of years old.

Paul isnt a false prophet, i think Christianity just takes alot of his letter way out of context by looking at a verse instead of reading the entire chapter.

As for Jesus isnt God your probably right since he prayed to the father, cried out to the father on the cross, had all authority in heaven and earth given to him by the father and when he returns, he doesnt know but only the father knows.

As for eternal hell im not sure as it would make no sense to burn someone alive for ever, rather than have them perish like John 3:16 says.
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#59 Feb 20, 2013
Ant wrote:
<quoted text>
In regards to the Gospels...If God could speak to Israel through Moses and the prophets, Why cant he speak to them and the Church through the Gospels and the letters of apostles as well? If your going to have faith to believe the front of the book, so might as well believe the whole thing as both are thousands of years old.
Paul isnt a false prophet, i think Christianity just takes alot of his letter way out of context by looking at a verse instead of reading the entire chapter.
As for Jesus isnt God your probably right since he prayed to the father, cried out to the father on the cross, had all authority in heaven and earth given to him by the father and when he returns, he doesnt know but only the father knows.
As for eternal hell im not sure as it would make no sense to burn someone alive for ever, rather than have them perish like John 3:16 says.
Ant, I assume you believe the whole bible so, who does the bible say made all things?

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Also, what does the bible say about man seeing the Father?

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

Did Moses and those who went up on the Mountain see God?

Exd 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness.

So, if the whole bible is correct, no man has ever seen the Father, yet Moses and the men with him saw the God of Israel, who was also YHVH.

The bible says that Jesus made all things. The bible says that YHVH made all things.

Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The bible does not say there is only one God.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

It says YHVH our Elohim is one YHVH.

It does not say one God, it says one Lord.

Jesus is God. The Father is God. The bible reveals two Godbeings. Jesus being the God of Israel.
Frank

Fayetteville, NC

#60 Feb 20, 2013
Ant wrote:
<quoted text>
In regards to the Gospels...If God could speak to Israel through Moses and the prophets, Why cant he speak to them and the Church through the Gospels and the letters of apostles as well? If your going to have faith to believe the front of the book, so might as well believe the whole thing as both are thousands of years old.
Paul isnt a false prophet, i think Christianity just takes alot of his letter way out of context by looking at a verse instead of reading the entire chapter.
As for Jesus isnt God your probably right since he prayed to the father, cried out to the father on the cross, had all authority in heaven and earth given to him by the father and when he returns, he doesnt know but only the father knows.
As for eternal hell im not sure as it would make no sense to burn someone alive for ever, rather than have them perish like John 3:16 says.
Well we agree on several points.

Admittedly, I guess I've read one too many Bart Ehrman books to accept the four gospels as the literal word of G-d and disagree with you on Paul because he clearly says stuff that isn't in sync with what preceeded him (not looking for a Paul debate either. As I'm sure you already know, I'm not the first guy to doubt Paul and probaly not the last as his words provide sufficient evidence for reasonable doubt, lol)

I'm willing to entertain the idea that perhaps he (Paul) was a preacher and theologian with good intentions but probaly nothing more than that.

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