What happened in the mid 1800s
Anoid

Bronxville, NY

#63 May 4, 2014
comment wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you mean it's my opinion? Paul's epistles being part of scripture is fact. This is what I mean about discernment, you're so eager to promote your agenda against Paul, you become incredulous.
<quoted text>
Regarding Paul's truthfulness, how about identifying the scriptures you're referring to?

It's easy to disparage someone, but without an illustration, it's unsubstantiated. Much easier for you, I realize, than having to produce a viable example,

However, if you think Paul is devious because his comments and ministry conflicts with Jesus' then the matter of their being two covenants, is very much relevant.
<quoted text>
There is the uncorroborated accusation again, still no citation to prove your position.
Your are correct that Paul is not one of the 12, he could not be according to the requirements laid out by Peter.
Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.” Acts 1:21-22
Since I question your abilities at this point, I'll elaborate the points: 1. Paul had not been a believer in Christ for "the whole time" in fact, he was not at this point, even a believer in Jesus as messiah. 2. Paul was not a witness to Jesus' ascension. 3. Paul's ministry was not to the Jews through the mosaic covenant.
<quoted text>
I'm not attempting to prove what is written for you to see. What I am doing is presenting what I believe scripture reveals. AND unlike you to this point, I'm providing the scripture references to illustrate my point. No one disputes Jesus' message. But to who and why his ministry existed, is obviously lost on you.

You've got a bad habit of making assertions that you don't back up and evidently think that repetition will make it credible. If that is all you have to contribute, it is insufficient.
You; " It's easy to disparage someone, but without an illustration, it's unsubstantiated. Much easier for you, I realize, than having to produce a viable example..."

How about you do this re; your comments about the RCC...!

and again you; "You've got a bad habit of making assertions that you don't back up and evidently think that repetition will make it credible. If that is all you have to contribute, it is insufficient."

Wow! we have another winner of the hypocrisy award!

Repetition of accusations about the RCC is historical with Protestants like you.
Anonymously

Richmond, VA

#64 May 4, 2014
Revelation 6:12-13 ...'And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.'

(To understand what happened in the 1800's, we need to look at the 1700's.

1755 was the date of the great Lisbon earthquake. May 19, 1780, stands in history as "The Dark Day." Since the time of Moses, no period of darkness of equal density, extent, and duration has ever been recorded. "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come." Joel 2:31.

The moon became as red as blood on the night of the "dark day," May 19, 1780. Milo Bostick in Stone's History of Massachusetts says, "The moon which was at its full, had the appearance of blood."

Stars Fall From Heaven

In 1833, the last of the signs appeared which were promised by the Saviour as tokens of his second advent. Said Jesus, "The stars shall fall from heaven." Matt. 24:29. And John in the Revelation declared, as he beheld in vision the scenes that herald The Day of God: "The stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig-tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." Rev. 6:13. This prophecy received a striking and impressive fulfillment in the great meteoric shower of November 13, 1833. That was the most extensive and wonderful display of falling stars which has ever been recorded; "the whole firmament, over all the United States, being then, for hours, in fiery commotion.

God's remnant Seventh-Day Adventist Church was formed, led by the prophetess Ellen G. White, whose writings to this day is still decades ahead of modern science on diet and health. The formation of the SDA church came out of the Millerite movement in the early part of the 1800's. The SDA church is a mainline Protestant church with exceptional hospitals and more Protestant schools than any other denomination. The SDA church, while still God's remnant church, crossed the lines in 1985 when the General Conference declared that that the General Conference was the ONLY storehouse for tithes and offerings. Currently the SDA Church, led by the General Conference, is guilty of: 1 Apostasy 2 Spiritualism 3 Jesuits have infiltrated the SDA church from top to bottom to lead the flock astray 4 Of being guilty of not letting God's messengers speak in HIS SDA Churches. God has taken the reigns of control from the SDA General Conference and given them over to For My People Ministry, which is now a worldwide ministry. For My People Ministry is pointing out the sins of the SDA church, and calling for His people to return to Him before God cleanses the SDA Church, which He will do. God's remnant SDA church will stand stronger after the cleansing.

As you can see, we are between the sixth and seventh seal, the seventh seal is the FINAL seal.

God's SDA church, which is being called to return to the divine blueprint given in the 1800's, by For My People Ministry, is one of a handful of churches (this is within the guidelines of the divine blueprint), that is truly a Protestant church, that does not go along with the dictates of Rome.
comment

Ozark, MO

#66 May 4, 2014
bump the thread?
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#67 May 6, 2014
The_Box wrote:
You're not making an actual argument; just hand-waving away this fatal flaw.
Anoid wrote:
<quoted text>Please explain, this makes little sense. Its an accusation that has no content.
So you have a full grasp on what was taking place in say the mid 1660's, everywhere?
Your combined IQ must nearly reach tepid.

My counterargument to the respondent, since you missed it, regarded the rebuttal to the nincompoop, that at the turn of the millenium there was no better means of communication than verbal and handwritten letters passed around.

Have you no grasp of historical context?

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#68 May 7, 2014
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Your combined IQ must nearly reach tepid.
My counterargument to the respondent, since you missed it, regarded the rebuttal to the nincompoop, that at the turn of the millenium there was no better means of communication than verbal and handwritten letters passed around.
Have you no grasp of historical context?
The communicator is supposedly an OMNIPOTENT god.

If that god, and you, cannot think of any better means of communication than playing 'telephone' and hoping that people eventually write the message down, then the IQ problem lies on your end.
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#69 May 7, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
The communicator is supposedly an OMNIPOTENT god.
If that god, and you, cannot think of any better means of communication than playing 'telephone' and hoping that people eventually write the message down, then the IQ problem lies on your end.
Regardless of omnipotence, if God had communicated to man by using a medium man neither understood nor was aware of,.....then God would not be a very good communicator.

Remember, over and over God has been very patient awaiting mankind's evolutionary progress before additional enlightenment is offered.

Timing is everything.
Why throw what won't be caught?

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#70 May 8, 2014
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Regardless of omnipotence, if God had communicated to man by using a medium man neither understood nor was aware of,.....then God would not be a very good communicator.
Direct revelation would have been, by far, the most EASILY understood method of communication. If a giant head in the sky starts talking to everyone on Earth simultaneously, there's not much ambiguity there: that's a god, and that message is important.

Heck, I can take the exact communication method he used according to Christianity and improve it in two seconds: send down 100 demigods instead of just one. Send them to all corners of the globe. Now we don't have people around the world waiting 1500 years to get the message.

The fact remains that the method Christianity claims that god used to communicate is, well, dumb. It's slow, inefficient, prone to corruption, and has the least credibility. It is the exact method of communication one expects from a made-up religion.
Cisco Kid wrote:
Remember, over and over God has been very patient awaiting mankind's evolutionary progress before additional enlightenment is offered.
Can you elaborate on what particular evolutionary jump occurred for the ancient Israelites and first century Jews/Gentiles?
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#71 May 8, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Direct revelation would have been, by far, the most EASILY understood method of communication. If a giant head in the sky starts talking to everyone on Earth simultaneously, there's not much ambiguity there: that's a god, and that message is important.
A giant disembodied talking head in the sky would be scary and send people running, so God came to mankind as a baby that grew into a gentle servant.
Jesus delivered direct revelation with a more user friendly demonstrative teaching method rather than a dictatorial Orwellian 'big brother' floating sky head.
The_Box wrote:
Heck, I can take the exact communication method he used according to Christianity and improve it in two seconds: send down 100 demigods instead of just one. Send them to all corners of the globe. Now we don't have people around the world waiting 1500 years to get the message.
That would send a false message since God is not pantheistic but Triune.
The_Box wrote:
The fact remains that the method Christianity claims that god used to communicate is, well, dumb. It's slow, inefficient, prone to corruption, and has the least credibility. It is the exact method of communication one expects from a made-up religion.
Considering the majority of people were largely illiterate for thousands of years, verbal communication was the most effective means of communication.
It still is.

Regardless of your assumptions, The Word has essentially remained intact and uncorrupted, despite thousands of years in circulation in all languages.
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you elaborate on what particular evolutionary jump occurred for the ancient Israelites and first century Jews/Gentiles?
God intervened on both occasions resetting the reciprocal relationship and the social direction of the faithful.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#72 May 9, 2014
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
A giant disembodied talking head in the sky would be scary and send people running
You're making excuses. You can substitute any number of other supernatural appearances: a giant full body, a regular sized full body (a la Paul's vision), a voice in everyone's head simultaneously, a loud booming voice from the sky, a burning bush, etc.
Cisco Kid wrote:
Jesus delivered direct revelation with a more user friendly demonstrative teaching method rather than a dictatorial Orwellian 'big brother' floating sky head.
That teaching method was only effective for the incredibly small number of people who were taught directly by him. It is useless for everyone else.
Cisco Kid wrote:
That would send a false message since God is not pantheistic but Triune.
This is completely arbitrary. God made a decision to create a human incarnation once, but isn't allowed to make a decision to create a human incarnation a hundred times?

Even taking your excuse...fine, send 1000 angels. Sending angels around clearly doesn't break any kind of internal policy.
Cisco Kid wrote:
Considering the majority of people were largely illiterate for thousands of years, verbal communication was the most effective means of communication.
It still is.
It's not more effective than direct communication.

And as I said, it's slow (~1500 years to even reach the western hemisphere!), ineffective, prone to corruption, and the least credible.

To add another one: it's not very clear. Christians cannot agree even on many central doctrines today. Clearly, the message is muddied.
Cisco Kid wrote:
Regardless of your assumptions, The Word has essentially remained intact and uncorrupted, despite thousands of years in circulation in all languages.
You have no way of knowing that. We know the Bible has contradictions (eg Luke vs Matthew birth narrative), we know it has additions (eg end of Mark), we know there are translational issues.
Cisco Kid wrote:
God intervened on both occasions resetting the reciprocal relationship and the social direction of the faithful.
You didn't answer my question. You said God waits for mankind's evolutionary progress before delivering new revelation. What was special about the ancient Israelites or 1st century Judeans in terms of evolutionary progress?
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#73 May 9, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
That teaching method was only effective for the incredibly small number of people who were taught directly by him. It is useless for everyone else.
<quoted text>
Facts deny your assumptions.
Verbal transmission of the gospel works wonders as evidenced by the immense worldwide Christian population worldwide today.
The_Box wrote:
This is completely arbitrary. God made a decision to create a human incarnation once, but isn't allowed to make a decision to create a human incarnation a hundred times?
God "creating a human incarnation a hundred times?" Not impossible but highly improbable.
There is only ONE God The Son.
The_Box wrote:
Even taking your excuse...fine, send 1000 angels. Sending angels around clearly doesn't break any kind of internal policy.
Sending angels around clearly doesn't work out well.
Angelic intervention of this type didn't work out the first time around, see Gen 6 and The Book of Enoch The Prophet.
The_Box wrote:
It's not more effective than direct communication.
And as I said, it's slow (~1500 years to even reach the western hemisphere!), ineffective, prone to corruption, and the least credible.
Have you no grasp of history?
The reason it took 1500 years for Christianity to reach the western hemisphere is because European Christians took 1500 years to chance sailing west.

Muslim radicals had delayed much European progress for hundreds of years.
The_Box wrote:
You have no way of knowing that. We know the Bible has contradictions (eg Luke vs Matthew birth narrative), we know it has additions (eg end of Mark), we know there are translational issues.
You wouldn't be so stumbled if you had a more intellectual grasp of how the gospels were written the way they were.
Big AL

Hibbing, MN

#74 May 10, 2014
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Facts deny your assumptions.
Verbal transmission of the gospel works wonders as evidenced by the immense worldwide Christian population worldwide today.
<quoted text>
God "creating a human incarnation a hundred times?" Not impossible but highly improbable.
There is only ONE God The Son.
<quoted text>
Sending angels around clearly doesn't work out well.
Angelic intervention of this type didn't work out the first time around, see Gen 6 and The Book of Enoch The Prophet.
<quoted text>
Have you no grasp of history?
The reason it took 1500 years for Christianity to reach the western hemisphere is because European Christians took 1500 years to chance sailing west.
Muslim radicals had delayed much European progress for hundreds of years.
<quoted text>
You wouldn't be so stumbled if you had a more intellectual grasp of how the gospels were written the way they were.
Everything we know about Jesus today essentially comes from the four Gospels. However we don’t know who wrote them and no one alive today has ever seen the original of any of the texts so we have no idea how accurate or in accurate the copies we have may be.

“The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euaggelion kata Matthaion, Euaggelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings.”- New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia

"Not only do we not have the originals, we don't have the first copies of the originals. We don't even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the originals. What we have are copies made later-much later. In most instances, they are copies made many centuries later. And these copies all differ from one another, in many thousands of places." - Bart D. Ehrman PhD, New Testament scholar at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

"Caesar had a miraculous birth, Cicero, Alexander [the Great] from Macedonia – nobody was in style or great unless he had a miraculous birth. It was a land of miracles." - Clarence Darrow
Anoid

Bronxville, NY

#75 May 10, 2014
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Your combined IQ must nearly reach tepid.
My counterargument to the respondent, since you missed it, regarded the rebuttal to the nincompoop, that at the turn of the millenium there was no better means of communication than verbal and handwritten letters passed around.
Have you no grasp of historical context?
Ah, the Christian way, go right for the insults. Never fails to amaze how little like Jesus you all attempt to be. Make sure you confess your Topix sins next confessional session. Or is your online persona NOT You talking?
Anoid

Bronxville, NY

#76 May 10, 2014
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Facts deny your assumptions.
Verbal transmission of the gospel works wonders as evidenced by the immense worldwide Christian population worldwide today.
<quoted text>
God "creating a human incarnation a hundred times?" Not impossible but highly improbable.
There is only ONE God The Son.
<quoted text>
Sending angels around clearly doesn't work out well.
Angelic intervention of this type didn't work out the first time around, see Gen 6 and The Book of Enoch The Prophet.
<quoted text>
Have you no grasp of history?
The reason it took 1500 years for Christianity to reach the western hemisphere is because European Christians took 1500 years to chance sailing west.
Muslim radicals had delayed much European progress for hundreds of years.
<quoted text>
You wouldn't be so stumbled if you had a more intellectual grasp of how the gospels were written the way they were.
Verbal transmission is hardly proof of a Supremely Intelligent, all knowing, Deity. If we allow that, then all racial prejudices are legit, that the White mans global spreading of their racism is a sound POV.

BTW; the collapse of the Western Roman Empire is more to blame for the slowdown, outright stalling of European progress, than is the rise of Islam. And while some enclaves of Christianity helped to preserve some accumulated knowledge, for the most part The Roman Church was working to outright destroy and deny accumulated knowledge from the ancient worlds. Only to have it all come back and bite their arse much later in the coming centuries...where discovery of the same reinvigorated the Western mind and POV.

BTW#2; when the Europeans went 'round the world conquering and exploiting, their spread of the Christian message was done more by the sword and guns than thru honest, and compassionate proselytizing. Native locals became Christians thru force, outright declaration of their new masters, and/or good old pragmatic survival then they did from any heartfelt and honest conversions. The Jews, the conversos of Spain, etc, can attest to that legacy.

It would appear like most American Christians you view history thru a very, very, narrow tube.
Anoid

Bronxville, NY

#77 May 10, 2014
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>

You wouldn't be so stumbled if you had a more intellectual grasp of how the gospels were written the way they were.
Yes they were "written" (compiled from scattered copies of copies of copies...of manuscripts, edited and edited again) with a very specific agenda. 1. to align with the older Jewish tradition, as a means of legitimacy in the Roman Empire, and 2, to turn the man Jesus into a God.

Look at the actual and many arguments going on in the Christian Churches, Eastern and Western, at the time running up to the compiling of the biblical canon, and you will better grasp the Whys of all of its construction. Why the Gospels are the way they are, Why Matt first, why John last, why Revelation at all. Its all there in the many arguments going on in and between the Eastern and Western Church communities.

Note; I use the term "construction" deliberately, as a construction, a constructed object of any sort, is performed thru a deliberate series of actions, with a specific set of materials, to create an object to the builders preconceived ideas...such as it was with the bible. A book meant to fulfill the beliefs of a specific and narrow POV of a particular and powerful sect among the christian Churches. Their might didnt necessarily make them right...only made them the winners.
Anoid

Bronxville, NY

#78 May 10, 2014
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
A giant disembodied talking head in the sky would be scary and send people running, so God came to mankind as a baby that grew into a gentle servant.
Jesus delivered direct revelation with a more user friendly demonstrative teaching method rather than a dictatorial Orwellian 'big brother' floating sky head.
<quoted text>
That would send a false message since God is not pantheistic but Triune.
<quoted text>
Considering the majority of people were largely illiterate for thousands of years, verbal communication was the most effective means of communication.
It still is.
Regardless of your assumptions, The Word has essentially remained intact and uncorrupted, despite thousands of years in circulation in all languages.
<quoted text>
God intervened on both occasions resetting the reciprocal relationship and the social direction of the faithful.
A reset would mean a mistake was made. A previous decision, a choice, etc, of this God was wrong, not good enough, etc, so he had to reset the machinery.

And rampant illiteracy would mean that verbal communications/messages would be misconstrued a lot of the time, if not nearly all the time. Try the old game of telegraph-telephone, with people of any intellectual levels and the same outcome will occur - the last story will not resemble the original. Now add geographic and cultural biases, translation issues etc, etc...and the last story goes off the charts.

The ONLY part of "The Word" that remains intact is this; Believe in Jesus, believe that he rose from the dead and you will be saved. All the rest is not intact, everything surrounding it is in constant flux.

In fact, we dont even know IF what I just listed is intact at all. We dont actually KNOW what the very first Christians, closest to the "source", actually believed. We truly do not and to say otherwise is to show how little of the historical reality you actually do grasp.
Anoid

Bronxville, NY

#79 May 10, 2014
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
A giant disembodied talking head in the sky would be scary and send people running, so God came to mankind as a baby that grew into a gentle servant.
Jesus delivered direct revelation with a more user friendly demonstrative teaching method rather than a dictatorial Orwellian 'big brother' floating sky head.
<quoted text>
That would send a false message since God is not pantheistic but Triune.
.
Splitting hairs, pantheistic or triune. Many or a few, its still more'n one.

So there's no Big Head in the sky, but the system, the machinery of your God is still Orwellian. Made more so by all the Christians running around ratting out each other, and non-christian's alike.

Jesus' so-called direct revelations were a bunch of mixed up and vague parables, that could be...oh wait - ARE interpreted a few dozen different ways. He never outright stated he WAS God, but maybe sort of, kinda possibly implied it, in a really not so specific manner of speaking. More like a Buddhist POV that we can all find God within. He never specified - that we know of - anything that has now become sacrosanct Christian doctrines and POV's. Never mentioned Sola anything, never explained his true intent of the Communion meal, was it merely symbolic, or actual transubstantiation...etc, etc...and so grows the list...

So once again, you are faced with the dilemma of poorly disseminated information, that allegedly was really, really important to Jesus and his followers.

That a semi-cohesive, but varying by Sect, Set of Doctrines rose up around all those vagaries is but the machinations of powerful men seeking control and dominance of a Belief system, at a time when the formally persecuted found themselves thrust up the chain of Command and Influence like no other time in human history anywhere on the planet. And they rose themselves and their Churches to such heights of power all without exhibiting any real scrap of the core of the messages (of love and compassion, etc ) this man-God was supposed to have been preaching.

This constant repeating about the The Word, the message being intact is the penultimate short-shrift of historical reality.
Anoid

Bronxville, NY

#80 May 10, 2014
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Regardless of omnipotence, if God had communicated to man by using a medium man neither understood nor was aware of,.....then God would not be a very good communicator.
Remember, over and over God has been very patient awaiting mankind's evolutionary progress before additional enlightenment is offered.
Timing is everything.
Why throw what won't be caught?
Why the long wait? Why not, as so many Christians claim, create humans at the exact and proper stage of development he most requires? Why let a "natural" means get in his way...?

Why not give the ability to catch the non-catchable, instead of waiting to see if all by themselves they learn to catch it...? Not very good coaching...just let the players run around the field, hoping they figure out the formations and plays...maybe armed with a book that is vague and contradictory, and prone to rousing bouts of sleepiness, and acts of violence in its opening half...?
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#81 May 10, 2014
Anoid wrote:
<quoted text>..........
This constant repeating about the The Word, the message being intact is the penultimate short-shrift of historical reality.
You're really a Punisher, Adnoid!

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#82 May 12, 2014
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Facts deny your assumptions.
Verbal transmission of the gospel works wonders as evidenced by the immense worldwide Christian population worldwide today.
The facts absolutely support me. The Christian population is only about 1/3 of the Earth. With direct revelation, it would be nearly 100%.

Secondly, there are over 40,000 Christian denominations, showing that the message was not delivered very clearly and is unable to maintain itself.
Cisco Kid wrote:
God "creating a human incarnation a hundred times?" Not impossible but highly improbable.
There is only ONE God The Son.
Again, this is completely arbitrary. In your belief system, God chose to make a human incarnation of himself. He could choose to make 99 more.
Cisco Kid wrote:
Have you no grasp of history?
The reason it took 1500 years for Christianity to reach the western hemisphere is because European Christians took 1500 years to chance sailing west.
Uh, that was my point. With direct revelation, or more human incarnations, or any number of other methods, Christianity would have reached the Western Hemisphere instantly.
Cisco Kid wrote:
You wouldn't be so stumbled if you had a more intellectual grasp of how the gospels were written the way they were.
I'm not stumbled. What did I say that was in error?
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#83 May 12, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
The facts absolutely support me. The Christian population is only about 1/3 of the Earth. With direct revelation, it would be nearly 100%.
No.......The facts absolutely support my statements.
Even when God directly spoke to people, many did not respond positively.
The_Box wrote:
Secondly there are over 40,000 Christian denominations, showing that the message was not delivered very clearly and is unable to maintain itself.
Again you are wrong.........The message was delivered clearly.
That there are over 40,000 Christian denominations speaks more of mankind's rebellious egotistical pride than erroneous delivery.
Thus Jesus' analogy of mankind with sheep and goats.

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