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AtheistPerspecti ve

Grayson, KY

#1 Dec 14, 2013
While speaking with s fellow Atheist on the topic "Freewill vs omniscience" he borough to my attention some interesting points. He said" God's omniscience alone wouldn't violate the possibility of freewill, but the Christian model does. When you think of it in terms of the Christian model, god is all knowing, creator of everything, and has choices in what he can create. That being said, he chose to create a specific universe in which I did make these specific actions; however, he could have chosen to create a universe in which I didn't. So in the beginning God had the responsibility.
LGK

UK

#2 Dec 15, 2013
AtheistPerspective wrote:
While speaking with s fellow Atheist on the topic "Freewill vs omniscience" he borough to my attention some interesting points. He said" God's omniscience alone wouldn't violate the possibility of freewill, but the Christian model does. When you think of it in terms of the Christian model, god is all knowing, creator of everything, and has choices in what he can create. That being said, he chose to create a specific universe in which I did make these specific actions; however, he could have chosen to create a universe in which I didn't. So in the beginning God had the responsibility.
That's interesting but I have one question (for now). You say God has the responsibility, OK. Who is he responsible to?

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#3 Dec 15, 2013
It is an interesting question; if everything is the consequents of what happened before, then we might think that everything runs on rails and every motion or event within the universe would have been predictable into details all from its beginning.

But it isnít like that!

Some basic things have certain predictability in the principles of direction, it is given by the laws of nature, but except for that we can see that chaos plays an important role in everything that happens.

We could say that everything exists at the edge of chaos; the given choices within our dimension and within this universe are almost infinite, and it shows every day in our lives.
It is the sum of an infinite chain of microscopic events interacting that creates the big changes and events that we can experience.
Every tiny event creates a new and nearly endless chain of possibilities into the future and that is why our world looks the way it does.
LGK

Preston, UK

#4 Dec 15, 2013
Mr Ironhart wrote:
It is an interesting question; if everything is the consequents of what happened before, then we might think that everything runs on rails and every motion or event within the universe would have been predictable into details all from its beginning.
But it isnít like that!
Some basic things have certain predictability in the principles of direction, it is given by the laws of nature, but except for that we can see that chaos plays an important role in everything that happens.
We could say that everything exists at the edge of chaos; the given choices within our dimension and within this universe are almost infinite, and it shows every day in our lives.
It is the sum of an infinite chain of microscopic events interacting that creates the big changes and events that we can experience.
Every tiny event creates a new and nearly endless chain of possibilities into the future and that is why our world looks the way it does.
Everything that begins has a cause otherwise there'd be an infinite regress which is, for a number of reasons impossible & absurd.

I reject the notion of chaos because to say anything is truly chaotic you must hav excluded all possible non-chaotic influences. This of course, unless you are omniscient is impossible. The same reasoning applies to the idea of random which everyone is acculturated to accept as if it's self-evidently true. It's not! You cannot know that anything is truly random unless you can exclude all possible influences for which again, you have to be omniscient

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#5 Dec 15, 2013
Mr Ironhart wrote:
It is an interesting question; if everything is the consequents of what happened before, then we might think that everything runs on rails and every motion or event within the universe would have been predictable into details all from its beginning.
But it isnít like that!
Some basic things have certain predictability in the principles of direction, it is given by the laws of nature, but except for that we can see that chaos plays an important role in everything that happens.
We could say that everything exists at the edge of chaos; the given choices within our dimension and within this universe are almost infinite, and it shows every day in our lives.
It is the sum of an infinite chain of microscopic events interacting that creates the big changes and events that we can experience.
Every tiny event creates a new and nearly endless chain of possibilities into the future and that is why our world looks the way it does.
Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood.

*
*

Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood,
and I, I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
-- Robert Frost

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#6 Dec 15, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
Everything that begins has a cause otherwise there'd be an infinite regress which is, for a number of reasons impossible & absurd.
I reject the notion of chaos because to say anything is truly chaotic you must hav excluded all possible non-chaotic influences. This of course, unless you are omniscient is impossible. The same reasoning applies to the idea of random which everyone is acculturated to accept as if it's self-evidently true. It's not! You cannot know that anything is truly random unless you can exclude all possible influences for which again, you have to be omniscient
Reject which notions you please or, in the fundie tradition, every notion you don't understand.

Stochastic Process:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_proce...
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#7 Dec 15, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
Everything that begins has a cause otherwise there'd be an infinite regress which is, for a number of reasons impossible & absurd.
I reject the notion of chaos because to say anything is truly chaotic you must hav excluded all possible non-chaotic influences. This of course, unless you are omniscient is impossible. The same reasoning applies to the idea of random which everyone is acculturated to accept as if it's self-evidently true. It's not! You cannot know that anything is truly random unless you can exclude all possible influences for which again, you have to be omniscient
But chaos eventually evolves into sometimes predictable, and/or similar patterns. Drop a rock into a flowing steam of water and initially the steady, even flow is disrupted into chaos - but eventually it settles around the rock into regular, often predictable patterns. Which is what is so fascinating about chaos theory, on the surface it looks wild and irregular, but beneath its all falling into regular patterns...

Random in our lives is random, because we humans while good at recognizing patterns, cant see that far into them without some real help...we cant see the course of events of the "objects, and/or people that eventually collide into our lives. We also not that good at seeing into our personal lives patterns..its a definite flaw in our manufacturing that we repeat things over and over, either expecting diff outcomes (def of insane), or thinking that we're in control of all the what we do and where we go decisions in our lives. Most times we dont even make conscious decisions...and that tendency is growing the more we rely on technologies that decide things for us.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#8 Dec 15, 2013
AtheistPerspective wrote:
While speaking with s fellow Atheist on the topic "Freewill vs omniscience" he borough to my attention some interesting points. He said" God's omniscience alone wouldn't violate the possibility of freewill, but the Christian model does. When you think of it in terms of the Christian model, god is all knowing, creator of everything, and has choices in what he can create. That being said, he chose to create a specific universe in which I did make these specific actions; however, he could have chosen to create a universe in which I didn't. So in the beginning God had the responsibility.
All Religions violate it! Especially if the subjects are trying to gain something Divine thru their actions/inactions.

If the God knows the PLAN,has set the PLAN in motion and thereby sets it in stone and created an outcome - actually allowing us humans do as we please, we would upset the PLAN. We could not do X when he needed, we could do Z...and that would only work if the God factored in all the billions of possible pathways that the ever growing human populations could take...while factoring in all past actions as they impact on present and future, and how we fit into that plan.

Now of course this would mean that ONLY we humans on this single planet are the whole focus of these Gods Plans. If these Gods created life elsewhere under similar conditions - what part of the PLAN would they be, how small or large would our place be in the PLAN?

Free-will is a flawed concept, that really has never been adequately supported by ANY Religions that rely on the ideas...

Xtianity especially, as the choices are all loaded. Free only counts if there is no consequence for the "wrong" choice. But since there is a really bad consequence for the B(ad) over A(llgood) choice - even when the alleged bad choice is the better choice - there is nothing free about the system at all. Factor in the kill-joy of the Doctrine of Election - and the whole notion goes bust!

Then add that we now know many people have biological imperatives manufactured into them that run counter to all things viewed as good choices, while the rest of us are making unconscious innocuous "choices" all day that we don't really have much control over - and the ideas flat-line totally!

Free-will is a myth! Don't be tricked by anyone selling it!
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#9 Dec 15, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
That's interesting but I have one question (for now). You say God has the responsibility, OK. Who is he responsible to?
To himself? To his charges? Both?
LGK

Preston, UK

#10 Dec 15, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>But chaos eventually evolves into sometimes predictable, and/or similar patterns. Drop a rock into a flowing steam of water and initially the steady, even flow is disrupted into chaos - but eventually it settles around the rock into regular, often predictable patterns. Which is what is so fascinating about chaos theory, on the surface it looks wild and irregular, but beneath its all falling into regular patterns...
Random in our lives is random, because we humans while good at recognizing patterns, cant see that far into them without some real help...we cant see the course of events of the "objects, and/or people that eventually collide into our lives. We also not that good at seeing into our personal lives patterns..its a definite flaw in our manufacturing that we repeat things over and over, either expecting diff outcomes (def of insane), or thinking that we're in control of all the what we do and where we go decisions in our lives. Most times we dont even make conscious decisions...and that tendency is growing the more we rely on technologies that decide things for us.
You said chaos may evolve into ...... OK. But how do you know it's chaos in the first place & not determined? Perhaps you could define "chaos."

The same applies to random. Your starting point seems to be that something - anything at all, is actually random. My question is how do you know that without pre-supposing it?
LGK

Preston, UK

#11 Dec 15, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>To himself? To his charges? Both?
How can one be responsible to oneself, how does that work? Surely if you're not responsible to anyone then you're not responsible, not answerable, a law unto yourself. So, how does responsible to self work? Sounds like a tautology to me.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#12 Dec 15, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
You said chaos may evolve into ...... OK. But how do you know it's chaos in the first place & not determined? Perhaps you could define "chaos."
The same applies to random. Your starting point seems to be that something - anything at all, is actually random. My question is how do you know that without pre-supposing it?
Sorry I wasnt truly meaning that at all...just tossing out some ideas...not beholden to anything firm...

"We" generally define chaos as a condition or state of disorder with indeterminate outcomes...but few things we humans experience end in truly indeterminate outcomes...but in the math sciences there is no hard and fast rule/definition of chaos but they do narrow it down considerably for their modeling...and I by no means understand it in full...lol

But to play along...we humans see chaos in a lot of places...like the weather, flowing water, people wandering the mall, traffic, etc - but thats only on the surface...as we dont see that deeply into most things...we kinda live on the surface of things...but when we delve deeper we can see the patterns emerge. But we like to "play" that we're freely moving, acting independently in our lives...but its so not the case...we're as repetitive in our lives as the grazing cattle on a hillside are in the daily tracks they take, like the day before and so on...

I think I'm saying that nothing is truly random for us humans...despite our desire for there to be true random events in our lives. Inside the "event" things might be random enough, finding a sale for something never on sale, running into someone from our distant past, getting hit by another car when we take a different route (which is our introducing a form of randomness)

just playing with ideas...
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#13 Dec 15, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
How can one be responsible to oneself, how does that work? Surely if you're not responsible to anyone then you're not responsible, not answerable, a law unto yourself. So, how does responsible to self work? Sounds like a tautology to me.
As a parent I'm responsible to stay healthy, so my family will not suffer from my ill-health, lack of bringing home the bacon. Its a loop of course, but if I dont take responsibility for myself, who will?

If I'm hiking alone, I am responsible to not take extreme risks so not to threaten my well-being.

Again, just tossing ideas around...the idea of the God being responsible is always an interesting one...isnt the God responsible to this charges IF said God is enforcing a code of conduct that is Universal? Or is he as we see in Xtianity exempt from his own Universal rules and laws...by the mere condition of being a God...?

Sunday morning idea tossing...
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#14 Dec 15, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
How can one be responsible to oneself, how does that work? Surely if you're not responsible to anyone then you're not responsible, not answerable, a law unto yourself. So, how does responsible to self work? Sounds like a tautology to me.
Let me ask, why must be we be responsible to an other, in order to act responsibly...? What about being responsible says its for/to another...?

If you say God, is that really the case? Or is it really ourselves as we seek to gain something from the God...?

We're told to drink responsibly...is that for myself or the other drivers...? Or both?

:)
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#15 Dec 15, 2013
Free will would have no meaning to an omniscient "God". Think about it. If you knew everthing that every person you come into contact with was going to do before they did it what difference would it make to you if they had free will or not?
LGK

Preston, UK

#16 Dec 15, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry I wasnt truly meaning that at all...just tossing out some ideas...not beholden to anything firm...
"We" generally define chaos as a condition or state of disorder with indeterminate outcomes...but few things we humans experience end in truly indeterminate outcomes...but in the math sciences there is no hard and fast rule/definition of chaos but they do narrow it down considerably for their modeling...and I by no means understand it in full...lol
But to play along...we humans see chaos in a lot of places...like the weather, flowing water, people wandering the mall, traffic, etc - but thats only on the surface...as we dont see that deeply into most things...we kinda live on the surface of things...but when we delve deeper we can see the patterns emerge. But we like to "play" that we're freely moving, acting independently in our lives...but its so not the case...we're as repetitive in our lives as the grazing cattle on a hillside are in the daily tracks they take, like the day before and so on...
I think I'm saying that nothing is truly random for us humans...despite our desire for there to be true random events in our lives. Inside the "event" things might be random enough, finding a sale for something never on sale, running into someone from our distant past, getting hit by another car when we take a different route (which is our introducing a form of randomness)
just playing with ideas...
I fully accept that to us humans things can appear random or to happen through chaos. This makes life interesting. That's why we have things like sport for example. If it was truly determinate (mind you sometimes it looks pretty determinate with Don King involved), we wouldn't pay so much to watch it.

I've just had a thought. Are non-natural phenomena eg flow of traffic as opposed to weather truly indeterminate. Now I'm thinking ?
LGK

Preston, UK

#17 Dec 15, 2013
Big Al wrote:
Free will would have no meaning to an omniscient "God". Think about it. If you knew everthing that every person you come into contact with was going to do before they did it what difference would it make to you if they had free will or not?
What about free will outside of interacting with other persons, is that meaningless?
LGK

Preston, UK

#18 Dec 15, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Let me ask, why must be we be responsible to an other, in order to act responsibly...? What about being responsible says its for/to another...?
If you say God, is that really the case? Or is it really ourselves as we seek to gain something from the God...?
We're told to drink responsibly...is that for myself or the other drivers...? Or both?
:)
The concept of responsible has built into it, responsible to another. Yes drinking responsibly if you are going to drive entails responsibility to other road uses & of course the government.

I'm afraid I didn't understand the question on God above.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#19 Dec 15, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
You said chaos may evolve into ...... OK. But how do you know it's chaos in the first place & not determined? Perhaps you could define "chaos."
The same applies to random. Your starting point seems to be that something - anything at all, is actually random. My question is how do you know that without pre-supposing it?
By doing the math which, sadly, leaves you out.

Stochastic Process:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_proce...

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#20 Dec 15, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
The concept of responsible has built into it, responsible to another. Yes drinking responsibly if you are going to drive entails responsibility to other road uses & of course the government.
I'm afraid I didn't understand the question on God above.
You don't understand much.

Cut out the struggle and strife, it only complicates you life.
Well, I cut down women. I cut down booze;
stopped ironing my shirts, cleaning my shoes.

Muswell Hillbillies
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