Is religion, the leading cause of rac...

“Naturalism - Nature is Enough”

Since: Nov 07

London, UK

#438 Jun 26, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. While your defining of 'equality' may be relatively 'pure', the idea of human equality is still very profound. Particularly here in the States ("All Men Are Created Equal" - MLK, etc).
Unfortunately, this view has it's problems that frequently frequently pop up that leads into issues like 'discrimination'(housing, employment, etc.). And some in society are getting strange ideas about who should, or shouldn't have a right to live (the mentally retarded, down syndrome, etc.). I believe that all men are equal, irregardless of social, health, etc. conditions. God made everyone 'unique', with a special gift not meant for self-preservation, but for the better of mankind. Man has a warped idea of human worth. Very feeble men have been made out to be gods because of certain 'visible' qualities like musical talent. So consequently some musicians are idolized who can't even keep their hotel room clean and intact (rock stars trashing hotel rooms, etc.). And at the same time, we hear about the unnoticed homeless man, who spread kindness to the locals, after he dies and has a city park named after him.
IMHO 'equality' is something one gives to people through laws. I think this is a good idea. However, the issues of social background and genetics still remain. No matter how many laws are passed there will still be people who are born into disadvantaged situations.
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
Why would you say that being born into a wealthy environment, and being healthy would suggest being higher up the equality ladder, even though you're not suggesting superiority?
Please stop trying to twist my words. I never made any claims regarding them being 'higher up the equality ladder'. It's more a case of a wealthly, fit person starting with an initial advantage over a poor, unhealthy person.
Reality

San Diego, CA

#439 Jun 26, 2012
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Didnt mean it that way, meant you were/are painting with a very big brush. Sort of like what Xtians do to us, and others...
:)
I agree I was forgetting about the many verities of christian dogmas out there when I wrote that LOL.

Ya got the young earth and old earth christians. Then there are those that say Great White sharks (with three rows of razor sharp teeth), were vegetarians until the forbidden fruit was eaten that mythical day..I think a baboon would even know better than that..((:

Since: Dec 09

Chicago, IL

#440 Jun 26, 2012
Reality wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I don't need to learn more about religion, I got plenty of that when I was a kid. Posting on Topix is just an amusing pastime for me now that I'm retired..
Nor do we need religion to know God.
Religion merely endures the affirmation that God IS; having served, throughout the ages, to persuade human consideration of God’s existence.
The huge irony in this is, of course ... that while religion informs us of God, it's the greatest obstacle to our knowing God!
Reality

Englewood, CO

#441 Jun 26, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>I believe that all men are equal, irregardless of social, health, etc. conditions. God made everyone 'unique',
I believe that all men are equal irregardless of social & health conditions too Job..I also believe everyone should have the right to live out their lives to the fullest extent possible, without having their life cut short by someone else criminal behavior..

You rave on about what you believe as a christian, but when non-believers asks you a legitimate questions about your bible god sanctioning and protecting immoral behavior, you refuse to answer time & time again..This has the tendency to make me, and probably others, think you are a hypocrite.

This is the last time I'm going to ask you about Gen 4:8 and Gen 4:15. If you still refuse to give me a direct answer to my direct question, that will speak for itself..

______
1) Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field , that Cain rose up against Abel his brother , and slew him.
______

You say that>>> "all men are equal, irregardless of social, health, etc. conditions."<<< and >>> "your God made everyone 'unique"<<<,. IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE THIS, tell us why you think a criminal like Cain, killing his innocent brother Able out of jealously, should be condoned and protected from justice by your so called righteous loving god?

Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain , vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold . And the LORD set a mark upon Cain , lest any finding him should kill him.
Reality

Englewood, CO

#442 Jun 26, 2012
janeebee wrote:
<quoted text>
Nor do we need religion to know God.
Religion merely endures the affirmation that God IS; having served, throughout the ages, to persuade human consideration of God’s existence.
The huge irony in this is, of course ... that while religion informs us of God, it's the greatest obstacle to our knowing God!
I agree with most of what you said Jan.. However it's my opinion as an independent Deist, that if there is a god, it chooses not to let us know about it's existence in this life nor does it control the universe it created..

As far as living a moral life goes, there are just as many good moral living non- religious people as there are good moral living religious people percentage wise....
Job

San Jose, CA

#443 Jun 26, 2012
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Youre looking at this whole subject thru a very narrow lens. The lens that tries to erase the past history of how for centuries the Pro-Xtian bias led the way - and demanded it (often under punishment) to be the ONLY way! Artifact found, claimed to be Jesus, Peter, Paul, etc - declared such by non-scientists namely the Church/es - its now fact! Phooey!
Prior to the more modern era - Some "digger" finds a pot shard, or a collapsed stone wall, or ossuary, etc in what might be (but not truly proved) some significant location in the Bible-lands and its deemed to be of Saint (fill in Gospel Writer, etc) and therefore is used to prove the claims of the Bible. Absolute Xtian bias that has run for centuries!
That we currently refuse to simply accept such findings as proven as such - is merely the logical progression of good and true and every more finely tuned Archeological research and study.
But which now is called by Believers as Anti-Xtian bias that is prejudicial and persecutory, etc...its only the truth if it conforms to a Xtian belief, otherwise its biased and prejudicial towards Xtianity, and god-forbid the Bible.(which, BTW, cant in any shape or form ever be used to prove the authenticity of an artifact)
Absolutely hilarious that You/others make these claims and dont laugh at them yourselves...hilarious...but sad that in your arguments you willfully ignore basic history 101...
Do you really think that every Bible believing archaeologist claims every find proves the validity of the Bible? Do think that the skeptic archaeologist never make bold claims that certain accounts in the Bible are proven to be myth? For instance, some have suggested that the account given of Samson could could not have happened because the pillars of an ancient stadium/coliseum were built too far apart for a man's arm length. So Samson would not have been able to bring a coliseum down by standing in between 2 pillars. Eventually a number of ancient sites 'were' found that did in fact have the pillars built close enough for a man to reach each end. Do Christian archaeologists claim this to be absolute proof? No. It does however refute the claim made that the account is a myth for that reason given.
Job

San Jose, CA

#444 Jun 26, 2012
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
completely different and different circumstances...? Really?
How is it then that Xtian always say that no matter the time of the writings (and the surrounding circumstances) of the Jewish texts and NT manuscripts they remain relevant to this day as well?
Funny how there's always wiggle room, always a way to find some door to escape thru in order run back and forth and make things fit to the Xtian POV no matter how much they contradict and literally drip hypocrisy. Which translates to; "its black because I need it to be black today, but tomorrow it will be chartreuse..."
If the time and place is to be relevant to today in one Biblical instance - its the same for all of them - because after all the Bible is one long and lengthy inerrant and infallible word of this God and should not be questioned, in part or whole!
The difference is that Israel was a 'nomadic' tribe, not under the authority of any government. There's no contradiction. This is not wiggling out of anything. God's judgment hasn't changed. In the days of Jesus, they were under Roman rule. They were not 'nomadic'. The Israelites themselves faced numerous judgments which generally resulted in occupation. Yes, the Bible does talk about seasons of change (Ecclesiastes).
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#445 Jun 27, 2012
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>No matter the magnitude of the threat - this God still knew the outcome and it was eventual failure for his chosen people. Yet he instructed them to commit acts of atrocity - knowing damn well they would not succeed in the long term...that Jerusalem, the Temple would fall...and the Jews scattered...
To what end does someone actually Know the outcome and still go ahead with all manner of death and destruction - only to lose..? We prosecute military leaders who go forward with such plans - as this God of the Bible should be prosecuted the same. Clearly it was his thirst for blood that precluded his use of common sense.
But of course the answer to that is God has a mysterious plan, and we are mere mortals unfit for challenging him...our ways are not his ways...our moral POV is not his, as his is so F'n stellar and above us...
to which I say - Pfffft!!
You mean you think the God of the Bible set Israel up to fail. No, King David set up Uriah to fail. That was a genuine set up. Uriah was set up to killed by being obedient to the Kings command. The difference is that when the Israelites 'obeyed' God they did 'not' fail. Since He also made us to either succeed or fail, knowing which will happen, what in your opinion are the alternatives? How should God conduct the affairs of men....in your opinion.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#446 Jun 27, 2012
Reality wrote:
<quoted text>
You have never answered it and avoided it like the plague.
<quoted text>
We agree and now it is the time for you to answer them.
<quoted text>
I have not made any accusations, I just asked you two legitimate questions. You avoid answering them by making untrue statements like this.
<quoted text>
That's not true, are you a mind reader? It's very obvious you are trying to avoid giving me direct answers to my direct questions about what two verses in your ancient book says..Here are the two verses and my questions about them will be right under them.
There is no need to throw a smoke screen out trying to complicate them to avoid a direct answer. The verses are easily understood and so are my questions..
___
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother : and it came to pass, when they were in the field , that Cain rose up against Abel his brother , and slew him.
____
Do you agree there should be a punishment to fit this crime for a man murdering his brother out of jeliousy, like our criminal system has in place today, yes or no?
Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain , vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold . And the LORD set a mark upon Cain , lest any finding him should kill him.
______
Do you think protecting a murderer by thrightening harm to greaving loved ones, seaking justice for this crime, is justice and the right thing to do, yes or no?
I've made no accusations here, and have no predetermined answer ready when you answer these questions if you do..
Sorry Reality. I've answered your question. You may not like it, but If you're going to accuse the God of the Bible (as opposed to the God of the Hittites, etc.), then you have to make the same claim 'against' our government's system of law. When someone murders another, the acquaintances 'cannot' retaliate. Period. If they seek vengeance outside of the law system, they 'will' pay the consequences. The system, at the same time exacts punishment, they protect the criminal as well.

As far as Cain's punishment from God, are you suggesting that Cain wasn't punished?
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#447 Jun 27, 2012
Reality wrote:
1. <quoted text>
Give me one example of a Non-Christian archeologist that hasn't looked into the past with an inquisitive mind fallowing the path of discoveries wherever they leads..

2. Give me one example of a christian archeologists that has fallowed any path of discovery with an inquisitive mind, even if it indicates there precious bible is wrong.

3. You're not an archeologist but you say Adam & Eve made the first arrowheads and stone tools, and none are older than 6'000~ years old because your precious book says so..The christian archeologist have your mindset and say the same silly things for the same reasons you do..If you don't agree with this, prove me wrong.
1. Let's go to your good friend and mine...wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Minimal...

It seems that you have a made-for-tv idea of 'all' non-Christian archaeologists being these wide-eyed discoverers right out of a 1950s sci-fi 'B' movie, without any bias who make all these fascinating discoveries, and by some strange coincidence they 'all' just sort of contradict Biblical history. No, in reality Reality, there are those who specifically attempt to disprove the Bible. Not 'all' of them, but 'some'. Why? Well, your guess is as good as mine.

2. How about Charles Wesley Bennett?

3. As I mentioned a couple of times before, Adam and Eve were vegetarians. It's quite possible that prior to the flood, humans were generally vegetarians. So no, I don't think they used spear heads unless they used tomatoes for target practice. As far as the 6,000 year issue, are suggesting that this would be impossible? That the dating methods are infallible?

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#448 Jun 27, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
You mean you think the God of the Bible set Israel up to fail. No, King David set up Uriah to fail. That was a genuine set up. Uriah was set up to killed by being obedient to the Kings command. The difference is that when the Israelites 'obeyed' God they did 'not' fail. Since He also made us to either succeed or fail, knowing which will happen, what in your opinion are the alternatives? How should God conduct the affairs of men....in your opinion.
Not so. Job's lament is Israel's lament. The defeat at Megiddo and the sack and destruction of the First Temple occurred in spite of the Jews' devoted obedience to Yahweh. You chose 'Job' as your screen name. You should know these things.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#449 Jun 27, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Let's go to your good friend and mine...wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Minimal...
It seems that you have a made-for-tv idea of 'all' non-Christian archaeologists being these wide-eyed discoverers right out of a 1950s sci-fi 'B' movie, without any bias who make all these fascinating discoveries, and by some strange coincidence they 'all' just sort of contradict Biblical history. No, in reality Reality, there are those who specifically attempt to disprove the Bible. Not 'all' of them, but 'some'. Why? Well, your guess is as good as mine.
2. How about Charles Wesley Bennett?
3. As I mentioned a couple of times before, Adam and Eve were vegetarians. It's quite possible that prior to the flood, humans were generally vegetarians. So no, I don't think they used spear heads unless they used tomatoes for target practice. As far as the 6,000 year issue, are suggesting that this would be impossible? That the dating methods are infallible?
By your logic, hyenas, wolves, vultures and crocodiles were also vegetarians.(Genesis 1:29-30)

Yeap, the dating methods are good enough to disprove your creation myth. Of course in your mind science and the devil walk hand in hand. Don't they?
Reality

San Diego, CA

#450 Jun 27, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry Reality. I've answered your question. You may not like it, but If you're going to accuse the God of the Bible (as opposed to the God of the Hittites, etc.), then you have to make the same claim 'against' our government's system of law. When someone murders another, the acquaintances 'cannot' retaliate. Period. If they seek vengeance outside of the law system, they 'will' pay the consequences. The system, at the same time exacts punishment, they protect the criminal as well.
As far as Cain's punishment from God, are you suggesting that Cain wasn't punished?
You've never answered me and I have not made any accusations or suggestions about those two verses..All I've done is ask you a direct question about them and you refuse to give me a direct yes or no answer back..Instead you just throw a smoke screen out to avoid the question and say that's your answer LOL..That's dumber than a bucket of bolts..

I'm not the only poster that's said you refuse to answer there questions on this thread..I wouldn't blame them if they all just ignored your posts because of what you've shown yourself to be..

Set another example for yourself, here's the verses and the question I asked you about them again.

1) Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field , that Cain rose up against Abel his brother , and slew him.

2) Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain , vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold . And the LORD set a mark upon Cain , lest any finding him should kill him.

Do you think a criminal like Cain, killing his innocent brother Able out of jealously, should be condoned and protected from justice by your so called righteous loving god, yes or no???

“Dan IS the Man”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#451 Jun 27, 2012
Looking back through history it is easy to see how much mayhem religion has caused, and Christianity is one of the worst offenders.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#452 Jun 27, 2012
janeebee wrote:
<quoted text>
Nor do we need religion to know God.
Religion merely endures the affirmation that God IS; having served, throughout the ages, to persuade human consideration of God’s existence.

The huge irony in this is, of course ... that while religion informs us of God, it's the greatest obstacle to our knowing God!
Not this again...

Without religion you have no beliefs about the God, unless you simply make them as you go (which many people do) and without those beliefs about the God, you also don't have a track to "get to know" the God - unless of course you're making it all up as you go. Which is fine, make it all up (as I already think believers have done anyway) but to say that a Xtian doesn't need the RELIGION - no matter the sect - is to be 100% disingenuous.

The Religion part is absolutely essential in the main three mono-theistic faiths of Judaism, Xtianity, and Islam. Absolutely essential.

And you cant say that a person who follows and pays great detail to the Religion, and all it means - is not getting to KNOW the God. Again this taking faith from others based on what you deem are essentials, or non-essentials is not under your providence.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#453 Jun 27, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
You mean you think the God of the Bible set Israel up to fail. No, King David set up Uriah to fail. That was a genuine set up. Uriah was set up to killed by being obedient to the Kings command. The difference is that when the Israelites 'obeyed' God they did 'not' fail. Since He also made us to either succeed or fail, knowing which will happen, what in your opinion are the alternatives? How should God conduct the affairs of men....in your opinion.
This God is omniscient is he not? He knows all does he not? He wrote and put the plan/s in motion did he not?

So he didnt know that the Jewish state would fail? That no matter what he sent them out to do, against whomever - in the end they would fail and be subsumed by outside forces...he had to know that, right? Or doesn't he know everything?

IMO, this God has never conducted the affairs of men. For the basic tenets - like Free-will - to be true, he has to be a non-interventionist in all aspects. As soon as he intrudes he's messing with the Plan, messing with humanity's freedom to pick and choose free from Supernatural influences. Plus, since he already knows the outcome - either the outcome needs him - which negates our freedom to conduct our own affairs - or his interference is a waste of time if failure (or success) is already written into the Plan. He's no more than a team mascot in his influence of the players on the field.

“Trolls are Clueless”

Since: Dec 07

Aptos, California

#454 Jun 27, 2012
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>This God is omniscient is he not? He knows all does he not? He wrote and put the plan/s in motion did he not?
So he didnt know that the Jewish state would fail? That no matter what he sent them out to do, against whomever - in the end they would fail and be subsumed by outside forces...he had to know that, right? Or doesn't he know everything?
IMO, this God has never conducted the affairs of men. For the basic tenets - like Free-will - to be true, he has to be a non-interventionist in all aspects. As soon as he intrudes he's messing with the Plan, messing with humanity's freedom to pick and choose free from Supernatural influences. Plus, since he already knows the outcome - either the outcome needs him - which negates our freedom to conduct our own affairs - or his interference is a waste of time if failure (or success) is already written into the Plan. He's no more than a team mascot in his influence of the players on the field.
Interesting. That would be one more reason the flood never happened would it not? Of course, the story of Abraham and his son could not happen either. If so, man has no free will.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#455 Jun 27, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Let's go to your good friend and mine...wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Minimal...
It seems that you have a made-for-tv idea of 'all' non-Christian archaeologists being these wide-eyed discoverers right out of a 1950s sci-fi 'B' movie, without any bias who make all these fascinating discoveries, and by some strange coincidence they 'all' just sort of contradict Biblical history. No, in reality Reality, there are those who specifically attempt to disprove the Bible. Not 'all' of them, but 'some'. Why? Well, your guess is as good as mine.

2. How about Charles Wesley Bennett?
3. As I mentioned a couple of times before, Adam and Eve were vegetarians. It's quite possible that prior to the flood, humans were generally vegetarians. So no, I don't think they used spear heads unless they used tomatoes for target practice. As far as the 6,000 year issue, are suggesting that this would be impossible? That the dating methods are infallible?
Dont you find it interesting that so many of the claims made about Biblical history have been dismantled? Doesn't that indicate a glaring truth about the weak nature of what Believers have compiled and claim was accurate Biblical history...?(No, I'm sure you dont see it that way...as you clearly see such things as an attack on the Religion.)

But to your point, there have been scientists, etc, who have tried as you put it to "disprove the Bible" - some xtian and some not. And the reason for that is because as Scientists they pursue the scientific truth. And as such they may disprove the claims made thousands of times in history that some artifact, some relic, some dig is NOT what was said about it. Like a sliver of wood is not old enough to be from the crucifix, or the ark, or wood not of that region, or used for such purposes, etc...

When some artifact is proved not to be of the time period, etc its reported to be - that's not disproving your Religion, or the Bible, its disproving the false claim. Plus, those objects, etc are not your Religion in the first place. That they are not what Priests, or ardent believers and non-scientists said they were is not an Anti-Xtian movement - its the natural progression of the Scientific method that IMO, in more inherent in the human nature than is Faith based beliefs that require no proof.

If someone claims a tree is the way to climb into heaven, its in human nature to climb that sucker and prove or disprove the claim.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#456 Jun 27, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry Reality. I've answered your question. You may not like it, but If you're going to accuse the God of the Bible (as opposed to the God of the Hittites, etc.), then you have to make the same claim 'against' our government's system of law. When someone murders another, the acquaintances 'cannot' retaliate. Period. If they seek vengeance outside of the law system, they 'will' pay the consequences. The system, at the same time exacts punishment, they protect the criminal as well.
As far as Cain's punishment from God, are you suggesting that Cain wasn't punished?
Gray area alert!

We do allow for self-defense of self and family, or others as the case may be...

We just had the case of that father who killed the guy raping his 5yo daughter...he ain't going to no jail.

Seeking vengeance sometime after the fact - is different than exacting justice in the moment of a crime being committed.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#457 Jun 27, 2012
LuLu Ford wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting. That would be one more reason the flood never happened would it not? Of course, the story of Abraham and his son could not happen either. If so, man has no free will.
The more learn about genetics and our biological imperatives - the less we should be considering Free-will in the manner Theists demand it. Are we free to make certain decisions? Yes, but not in the manner religions like Xtianity and Islam demand.

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