Tower of Babble vs NASA Question

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#164 Jul 26, 2013
NDanger wrote:
<quoted text>
So I am an idiot!!!
Thanks for proving my point!!!
Very happy to oblige. Please let me know if you need me to point out any more of your obvious flaws.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#165 Jul 26, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
More avoidance lol. Lets try again
" Atheists make claims all the time lol. They "claim" that nothing was created. Therefore (by your system/logic of debate) they have to provide proof for their claim."
Cant have it one way and not the other.
I am agnostic on one thing, and that is what, if anything, created the universe in its original form (prior to the Big Bang.)

Please don't presuppose that I believe that something created the universe in its original form - what I am saying is that it may be possible that something did, and it may be possible that the universe always existed in one form or another.

If something did create the universe (which we may never know), I don't believe that we'll ever know what that something was or is.

But again, I do know for sure that if that something exists it is NOT the Christian God because, as I have previously proved, it is impossible for the Christian God to exist by definition(i.e. a god that is omniscient AND granted humans free will is an impossibility.)

As for people who state that everything came from nothing, I don't know how or if that is knowable, and I am not one of those people.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#166 Jul 26, 2013
10uhsee wrote:
1. 1st question
The Tower of Babble... Workers have their "tongues twisted" so that they speak other languages for trying to reach the heavens.
However, god does not seem to have an issue with a multinational space program actually succeeding. Why is this?
2nd question.

2. Also, how did the Earth get repopulated enough to do this and build the pyramids with only about 150 years after the bible's mass human extinction story (Noah's Arc?)
1. The Tower of Babel was a Ziggurat. Reaching the Heavens was a 'figure of speech'(yes, figure of speech 'is' utilized in the Bible at times). The multinational space program's success wouldn't be any different than the successful building of 'multiple' ziggurats built in the Mesopotamian region.

2. Are you questioning the reproduction of humans which could have potentially been quite great considering how big many families were described to be in the Bible? In other words, there were enough humans to cover this project. Or, are you questioning their ability? One of the problems is that we don't even really know 'how' the "pyramids" were built. A painful thought for many (particularly evolutionists), but it's quite likely that they had knowledge that we don't have today.

Getting back to the NASA program, one of the ideas has been that multinational space travel would produce world peace. And it "has not" done it anymore than the building of a great ziggurat would unify the peoples of the ancient Mesopotamian region. From what I here, when the movie "2001 A Space Odyssey" came out, people had in mind the idea that in 2001 nations would be unified, working together, in space exploration. Instead, we had a 'massive' act of terrorism that revealed anything 'but' such a notion.

“Identifying Wolves”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#167 Jul 26, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you mean no signs of god or heaven? LOL the farthest they have been is the moon lol.
People live where? In space?
Very good point.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#168 Jul 26, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
God drowned all but 8, so you are omitting MUCH.
And what did God admit after he drowned all but those eight people? Do you recall?

He repented his mistake because he realized that humans would ALWAYS have evil thoughts, from childhood.

God, therefore, was unable to drown out the evil in humans beings, in which case he slaughtered all those people for no good reason.

Not only that, but since God said evil thoughts begins during CHILDHOOD, then every fetus that drowned in the flood before its brain had developed was innocent of any evil thoughts or actions.

God therefore drowned innocent humans, along with the people he drowned because he mistakenly assumed he could rid the earth of evil.

Either your God doesn't exist, or he's a malicious murdering monster.

Not much of a choice, is there? No wonder you're such a sick piece of crap - rather than admit the obvious, instead you choose to worship a demon.
Thinking

Royston, UK

#169 Jul 26, 2013
Not if you were educated.
Six people live in space as we speak.
Laci Ann 7 wrote:
<quoted text>Very good point.
Thinking

Royston, UK

#170 Jul 26, 2013
Are you sure?
Violent crime is on the decline, as is religious belief.
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. The Tower of Babel was a Ziggurat. Reaching the Heavens was a 'figure of speech'(yes, figure of speech 'is' utilized in the Bible at times). The multinational space program's success wouldn't be any different than the successful building of 'multiple' ziggurats built in the Mesopotamian region.
2. Are you questioning the reproduction of humans which could have potentially been quite great considering how big many families were described to be in the Bible? In other words, there were enough humans to cover this project. Or, are you questioning their ability? One of the problems is that we don't even really know 'how' the "pyramids" were built. A painful thought for many (particularly evolutionists), but it's quite likely that they had knowledge that we don't have today.
Getting back to the NASA program, one of the ideas has been that multinational space travel would produce world peace. And it "has not" done it anymore than the building of a great ziggurat would unify the peoples of the ancient Mesopotamian region. From what I here, when the movie "2001 A Space Odyssey" came out, people had in mind the idea that in 2001 nations would be unified, working together, in space exploration. Instead, we had a 'massive' act of terrorism that revealed anything 'but' such a notion.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#171 Jul 26, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. The Tower of Babel was a Ziggurat. Reaching the Heavens was a 'figure of speech'(yes, figure of speech 'is' utilized in the Bible at times). The multinational space program's success wouldn't be any different than the successful building of 'multiple' ziggurats built in the Mesopotamian region.
2. Are you questioning the reproduction of humans which could have potentially been quite great considering how big many families were described to be in the Bible? In other words, there were enough humans to cover this project. Or, are you questioning their ability? One of the problems is that we don't even really know 'how' the "pyramids" were built. A painful thought for many (particularly evolutionists), but it's quite likely that they had knowledge that we don't have today.
Getting back to the NASA program, one of the ideas has been that multinational space travel would produce world peace. And it "has not" done it anymore than the building of a great ziggurat would unify the peoples of the ancient Mesopotamian region. From what I here, when the movie "2001 A Space Odyssey" came out, people had in mind the idea that in 2001 nations would be unified, working together, in space exploration. Instead, we had a 'massive' act of terrorism that revealed anything 'but' such a notion.
1. Now that you've admitted that the Bible should not be taken 100% as literal truth, you've opened the ultimate Pandora's Box.

2. We know exactly how the pyramids were built. You don't, because you don't stay informed. As for ancient knowledge being lost (because of marauding Christians who destroyed entire libraries), how does that have any bearing on the fact that humans evolved from hominids?

3a. The space program was NEVER intended to promote world peace, it was always about competition and gaining a technological edge over other countries. You've committed the Straw Man logical fallacy.

3b. From what you "here" doesn't make it so. And if people get their belief system from a fictional film, does is therefore follow that when the outcome they expected doesn't transpire at the believed time that it will NEVER happen?

I sincerely believe you have cognitive issues. You seem to have great difficulty following a logical argument, and you appear to be unable to begin with a valid premise when you formulate your own arguments.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#172 Jul 26, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Show me where it shows that they were scattered because they were about to reach heaven. Ready? GO!!!
They were scattered because God said it was inevitable that the tower would reach heaven:

"But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said,'If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

The next bit is interesting for another reason: "So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babel — because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth."

Two points: if it was called "Babel" AFTER it was destroyed and AFTER God confused everyone's language, then how did they all come to call it "Babel"?

And if God confused EVERYONE'S language, then how is it that entire civilizations of people spoke a common language immediately after God confused their language?

If every single human spoke a common language BEFORE the tower was destroyed by God, and everyone spoke a DIFFERENT language afterward, then at some point the "confused language" punishment must have worn off.

If that's true, then God FAILED to ensure that humans would never be able to speak a common language.

Your theology is fractured in so many ways, it's a wonder that people who believe it to be true haven't all been institutionalized.

I guess there just aren't enough mental hospitals to accommodate the world's Christians. Not yet, anyway, but one can dream, can't one?

“Vader2016!”

Since: Sep 10

The Deathstar

#173 Jul 26, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
More avoidance lol. Lets try again
" Atheists make claims all the time lol. They "claim" that nothing was created. Therefore (by your system/logic of debate) they have to provide proof for their claim."
Cant have it one way and not the other.
No, Atheists ask for proof of YOUR claim. You are stating the claim of divine creation... we are asking for proof.

We simply say you have no proof to your claim so there is no reason to believe it.

Also, you have a double standard argument.

You say nothing comes from nothing and that you have to have a creator for something to exist.

YOU use a cop-out answer to say "God always existed." If something always requires a creator then who created your god? Saying he always existed or had no creator works against the rule (that YOU stated) that everything has to be created.

You have a double standard argument; It is as flawed as your logic.

“Vader2016!”

Since: Sep 10

The Deathstar

#174 Jul 26, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
They were scattered because God said it was inevitable that the tower would reach heaven:
"But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said,'If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
The next bit is interesting for another reason: "So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babel — because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth."
Two points: if it was called "Babel" AFTER it was destroyed and AFTER God confused everyone's language, then how did they all come to call it "Babel"?
And if God confused EVERYONE'S language, then how is it that entire civilizations of people spoke a common language immediately after God confused their language?
If every single human spoke a common language BEFORE the tower was destroyed by God, and everyone spoke a DIFFERENT language afterward, then at some point the "confused language" punishment must have worn off.
If that's true, then God FAILED to ensure that humans would never be able to speak a common language.
Your theology is fractured in so many ways, it's a wonder that people who believe it to be true haven't all been institutionalized.
I guess there just aren't enough mental hospitals to accommodate the world's Christians. Not yet, anyway, but one can dream, can't one?
You answered the same as I would have.

:)

“God Loves Ilks!”

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#175 Jul 26, 2013
Well, I am just gonna go ahead and declare that I am surely glad that I never overly concerned myself about the story of the Tower of Babel.

lol

“God Loves Ilks!”

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#176 Jul 26, 2013
I found this interesting:

(iv) Language is another "name" we give ourselves. In our saner moments we might think that language-diversity can only be enriching. At the very least another language exposes us to another literature. What is more enriching than this? Besides, thinking in another language is a good check that our thinking really is thinking and not merely the shuffling of cliches. Yet most of the time any suggestion of another language begets suspicion and hostility.



There is a delightful touch in the parable we are probing today. When we have finished building that tower so tall that it reaches to the heavens, God still can't see it! Our tallest tower, as high as the heavens, we think to have penetrated even the abode of God himself. But in fact our tall tower is such a pipsqueak thing that God can't see it. The text in Genesis tells us that he has to "go down"; he has to leave his abode, get down on his hands and knees with his magnifying glass in order to see this puny fabrication.

The racial superiority we deem simply obvious; the ethnic advantage that is surely self-evident; the social elevation that declares itself to the world; all of these are so paltry, so puny, such trifles that God has to get down on his hands and knees to see them.



In any case we have achieved what we set out to do: we have made a name for ourselves. But others have just as effectively made a name for themselves too. They are now boasting of their superiority in blind ignorance of our boasting of ours. The consequences are far-reaching. Our story-teller tells us of two consequences. We are "scattered over the face of the earth"; which is to say, there is no community. There are crowds everywhere, but no community. The second consequence is that we do not understand each other. We talk, we listen, we even claim to hear. But we don't understand each other. We certainly know the meaning of the talk we utter; we know the meaning of the talk we hear. We say we understand others even as we insist they don't understand us. Everyone claims to understand but not to be understood. In other regards, regardless of the words we understand, we don't understand each other. Of course we don't. People understand most profoundly not with their ears but with their hearts. Our hearts are clogged and calcified. We don't understand each other. But we keep talking anyway. We talk past each other. Our attempt at communicating has become babble. The builders of the tower of Babel can only babble.
http://www.victorshepherd.on.ca/Sermons/the_t...

Uh oh, this Victor Shepherd (born 1944) is a Canadian Presbyterian minister, theology professor and author living in Toronto.
Not even a Catholic site.
I hope my reputation is not up for grabs.
The Seven Spirits of God

San Antonio, TX

#177 Jul 26, 2013
Nettiebelle wrote:
Well, I am just gonna go ahead and declare that I am surely glad that I never overly concerned myself about the story of the Tower of Babel.
lol
I challenge you to obey this commandment of Jesus Christ on this forum.

Matthew, Chapter 5, 39: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Since: Dec 09

Chicago, IL

#178 Jul 26, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
I am agnostic on one thing, and that is what, if anything, created the universe in its original form (prior to the Big Bang.)
Please don't presuppose that I believe that something created the universe in its original form - what I am saying is that it may be possible that something did, and it may be possible that the universe always existed in one form or another.
If something did create the universe (which we may never know), I don't believe that we'll ever know what that something was or is.
But again, I do know for sure that if that something exists it is NOT the Christian God because, as I have previously proved, it is impossible for the Christian God to exist by definition(i.e. a god that is omniscient AND granted humans free will is an impossibility.)
As for people who state that everything came from nothing, I don't know how or if that is knowable, and I am not one of those people.
HE: "..as I have previously proved,......a god that is omniscient AND granted humans free will is an impossibility."

Really! How could I have missed that? Assuming you proved it here... would you mind directing me to the thread on the date wherein that occured?
The Seven Spirits of God

San Antonio, TX

#179 Jul 26, 2013
janeebee wrote:
<quoted text>
HE: "..as I have previously proved,......a god that is omniscient AND granted humans free will is an impossibility."
Really! How could I have missed that? Assuming you proved it here... would you mind directing me to the thread on the date wherein that occured?
I challenge you to obey this commandment of Jesus Christ on this forum.

Matthew, Chapter 5, 39: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#180 Jul 26, 2013
janeebee wrote:
<quoted text>
HE: "..as I have previously proved,......a god that is omniscient AND granted humans free will is an impossibility."
Really! How could I have missed that? Assuming you proved it here... would you mind directing me to the thread on the date wherein that occured?
It appears here, among other places:

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/christian...

Omniscience is defined as know everything, including the future. Scripture makes it clear that God knows everything, including the future.

If humans have the free will to make their own choices, then they determine the future and have the capacity to create whatever future they choose.

So, if God knows the future, humans must choose to do only those things that will result in the future God already knows is coming. If God knows you will do X at time Y, guess what? When time Y rolls around you are going to do X. You can't do Z because then God will have been wrong about the future, and that would negate his omniscience.

The Christian God doesn't exist, because it is impossible to exist as defined.

Three additional points:

1) If the Christian God is not omniscient, then it's possible that the Christian God exists. But then Scripture would be in error and the Bible would be negated on a crucial point.

2) If humans do not have free will, then God created automatons, who punishes people for doing something they had no choice but to do. Therefore he is a monster.

3) Some Christians have rebutted me by claiming that God knows all possible futures, but he doesn't know which one we will choose. If that's true, what good is omniscience? And further, I can make the same claim. I can say that there are an infinite number of futures for you, and no matter which one you choose I can claim that I knew you would pick that one - because I knew you would pick one! Duh! But then I would be admitting that I knew which possible future you chose, which means you didn't have a choice after all - you had to pick the one i knew you'd pick out of all possible ones.

There Christian God, by definition, cannot exist.
Punisher

Brentwood, NY

#181 Jul 26, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
What?? Atheists make claims all the time lol. They "claim" that nothing was created. Therefore (by your system/logic of debate) they have to provide proof for their claim.
<quoted text>
Wow.... You just implied that since the claim was FIRST that there is a God (lol something you do not have proof for) that its on every person that agrees with this to provide proof. Did I get this right?
At the end of the day, no matter how much you switch it around, if one person makes a claim and has to provide proof, than the other does as well. You cant make one do something and than the other be lax lol. Well not when its EQUITY
No, youre wrong. Its the first claim that HAS to provide proof. The dissent has no such obligation. Never has, never will...!

Till someone spoke about Gods, its highly improbable that anyone was dissenting from such claims...use your head for more'n a hat-rack...

Dissent doesnt have to prove anything...
Punisher

Brentwood, NY

#182 Jul 26, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
More avoidance lol. Lets try again
" Atheists make claims all the time lol. They "claim" that nothing was created. Therefore (by your system/logic of debate) they have to provide proof for their claim."
Cant have it one way and not the other.
Nothing? Like what humans HAVE created? FYI, we admit to that...and one of them is the belief and systems abut Gods. Those are all created.

None of them has ever provided any proof of their imaginary Beings. All they have done is create artifacts that they claim represent these Gods in some manner...never in the exact manner, like a statue is never the God, or the book - just representations. But none has ever provided real, hard, analyzable proof. NONE!

You are the one who wants it both ways, and a few dozen more.

No matter how you try to twist it - you are now and always wrong. Make a claim and when someone dissents the burden of proof is always on you!

If you know you cant prove it, be honest and faithful to your Faith and admit it...! It would at the very least show you comprehend what Faith really is...but instead, like so many Fundy zealots you will try and change the rules, of just about everything to suit your Faith-based POV.
Punisher

Brentwood, NY

#183 Jul 26, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
More avoidance lol. Lets try again
" Atheists make claims all the time lol. They "claim" that nothing was created. Therefore (by your system/logic of debate) they have to provide proof for their claim."
Cant have it one way and not the other.
The atheists claim follows - historically - the Religious claims. "What Gods created all this? Uh, prove that will you?"

We modern atheists here, or anywhere today, are merely waiting for what has been questioned by many thru history - proof of any God, gods, demi-gods, hybrids, or anything supernatural where supernatural Beings are supernaturally intervening in this world, in any way...

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