created by: ccrider | Nov 7, 2010

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Has removal of school prayer in 1962 contributed to more violence?

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ccrider

Sacramento, KY

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Nov 7, 2010
 

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Do you think that removing school sanctioned prayer in 1962 has contributed to more school violence, like Columbine? Has it contributed to more family problems? How many school shootings were there prior to 1962? Was there much of a drug problem in schools prior to '62? Back then more kids have both mom & dad at home, married to each other. Do you think the percentage is that high today? I don't think so. At least God was acknowledged in schools back then, & it seemed to have as a result fewer student problems. Even if you don't believe in God, you cannot deny that things like school shootings, drugs, & more broken homes occur now than they did prior to 1962.
OKAY

Richmond, MN

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Nov 7, 2010
 

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ccrider wrote:
Do you think that removing school sanctioned prayer in 1962 has contributed to more school violence, like Columbine? Has it contributed to more family problems? How many school shootings were there prior to 1962? Was there much of a drug problem in schools prior to '62? Back then more kids have both mom & dad at home, married to each other. Do you think the percentage is that high today? I don't think so. At least God was acknowledged in schools back then, & it seemed to have as a result fewer student problems. Even if you don't believe in God, you cannot deny that things like school shootings, drugs, & more broken homes occur now than they did prior to 1962.
Along with the total degradation of society in general...

“God Loves Ilks!”

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Nov 7, 2010
 

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ccrider wrote:
Do you think that removing school sanctioned prayer in 1962 has contributed to more school violence, like Columbine? Has it contributed to more family problems? How many school shootings were there prior to 1962? Was there much of a drug problem in schools prior to '62? Back then more kids have both mom & dad at home, married to each other. Do you think the percentage is that high today? I don't think so. At least God was acknowledged in schools back then, & it seemed to have as a result fewer student problems. Even if you don't believe in God, you cannot deny that things like school shootings, drugs, & more broken homes occur now than they did prior to 1962.
"1962 was the first time the U.S. Supreme Court took up school prayer, but several state supreme courts had ruled on the issue prior to that. For example, the Wisconsin Supreme Court struck down government-sponsored Prayer in schools in 1892; the Nebraska Supreme Court followed suit in 1902, and the Illinois Supreme Court removed mandatory worship from public schools in 1910.

These are just a few examples. A 1960 survey by Americans United found that only five states had laws on the books requiring daily Bible reading in public schools. Twenty-four slates allowed "optional" Bible reading. Eleven states had banned the practice as unconstitutional.(The remaining states had no laws on the subject.)"

Uhhh.....
cc:
Aren't you being misleading in your post here????

“God Loves Ilks!”

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Nov 7, 2010
 

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ccrider wrote:
Do you think that removing school sanctioned prayer in 1962 has contributed to more school violence, like Columbine? Has it contributed to more family problems? How many school shootings were there prior to 1962? Was there much of a drug problem in schools prior to '62? Back then more kids have both mom & dad at home, married to each other. Do you think the percentage is that high today? I don't think so. At least God was acknowledged in schools back then, & it seemed to have as a result fewer student problems. Even if you don't believe in God, you cannot deny that things like school shootings, drugs, & more broken homes occur now than they did prior to 1962.
What part of separation of church and state is it that you don't understand?
As for 'broken homes', divorces, whatever, THAT DOES NOT MEAN those parents stop BEING a parent!
Where are these parents? Where is their input, their guidance, their teachings, their RESPONSIBILITIES to these school kids? Did that just GO AWAY when they divorced? Did that just GO AWAY when prayer was banned, at least openly, in public schools????

Been there, done that, cc!
I GRADUATED high school in 1962!

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Nov 7, 2010
 

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ccrider wrote:
Do you think that removing school sanctioned prayer in 1962 has contributed to more school violence,
No, no effect at all.
ccrider wrote:
like Columbine?
NOPE, had nothing to do with it.
ccrider wrote:
Has it contributed to more family problems?
Nope.
ccrider wrote:
How many school shootings were there prior to 1962?[?QUOTE]
Prior to this time the people that were in School were there to get an Education, they were there to LEARN, and maybe go to College.
These days School for most children is a babysitting place.

[QUOTE who="ccrider"]
Was there much of a drug problem in schools prior to '62?
Depends on were your are at but Heroin was a problem, on the East Coast, Alcohol was so strong it was it was a prevalent as spousal abuse and child abuse.

Back when I was a Kid my dad would have beat my ass with a Belt,(while he was Drunk), My mom even got her ass beat including a few black eyes for talking back to my dad. Stuff like that.
Then Birth Control comes along and my mom thinks she is hot shit, well my dad took care of that. 1962
You are asking about, this is what happened.
ccrider wrote:
Back then more kids have both mom & dad at home, married to each other.
Not completely true, they may have been Married in the USA, but a law was passed around that time that said something repealing, if a woman leaves you you can put her out to Ho, and count her as property, some law was passed about that time, that said Your Wife is not Your Property, it was big shiit.

You know keeping women that are married as Property, seems to make so much more sense.
Damn Liberals.
ccrider wrote:
Do you think the percentage is that high today? I don't think so.
Percentage of what?
ccrider wrote:
At least God was acknowledged in schools back then, & it seemed to have as a result fewer student problems.
Are you an Idiot, back then they would say YOU ARE DRAFTED, if you screw up in School, you are DRAFTED, you ARE GOING INTO THE WAR.

Students behaved better knowing that if they did not Qualify and go to College they would be DRAFTED in the armed services.

It is a big stick for study.
ccrider wrote:
Even if you don't believe in God, you cannot deny that things like school shootings, drugs, & more broken homes occur now than they did prior to 1962.
And we do not have the Draft putting all those at risk youths into the war in Afghanistan.

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Nov 7, 2010
 

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ccrider wrote:
Do you think that removing school sanctioned prayer in 1962 has contributed to more school violence, like Columbine? Has it contributed to more family problems? How many school shootings were there prior to 1962? Was there much of a drug problem in schools prior to '62? Back then more kids have both mom & dad at home, married to each other. Do you think the percentage is that high today? I don't think so. At least God was acknowledged in schools back then, & it seemed to have as a result fewer student problems. Even if you don't believe in God, you cannot deny that things like school shootings, drugs, & more broken homes occur now than they did prior to 1962.
That is what is Different these days,

We do not Have THE DRAFT,
If you fail in school you will be Drafted, with a Warrant upon you Head,
First time the cop catches you, you report for Duty.

That is what is Different,
The Draft.
Conscription, an English word.

WE ARE AT WAR
Why do we not Have the Draft?

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#7
Nov 7, 2010
 

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Look how quick I employed All they 16 25 year olds standing on the street,
You are hired, You are drafted,

Press gangs, only the semi read and English will know what that means, America do not even need that,

Pick them up, give them the option, lion the Army or go to jail, turns out a lot of people Join the Army/marines/navy, most of the Pressed go into the Army as 11b which is cannon fodder.

But it is so simple to stop the recession, and crime, and all the other bullshiite, put them on the front line, they want no more of it real quick,
Cept a few, who you make Sargents.

Instead of putting them in Prison YOU DRAFT THEM, and send them to the front lines.

America used to have the balls to do this, draft all the trouble makers, YOUR DRAFTED, and then spread them out through the corps, and some of them turn out to be career Men.

Looking for a few good men, sometime, the draft, they need a kick in their ass to find home.

We are at War, with a few things,

A real WAR requires a DRAFT, of the idle youth is a nice way to say, gangster children, they what to be gangster, they need serve.

What is the Choice?
We go in with Guns blazing?
Or we Conscript them and.

Is Conscription an Executive Order?
Or a
Congressional Order?

What America Needs is Conscription of 18-25 to start,

AMERICA NEEDS the Order to CONSCRIPT These people.

Send them to the Mexico Border to start,

Conscription sounds like something that the Congress has power over, but can the president sign a presidential order to Conscript?

We Need to do this, we NEED to give GUNS and Money to the People of America,
A new State, what is across the border from Juarez, lets go ahead and take the STATE,
We will declare war on Drug Cartels, oh we have been at war with them for many years,

Screw it, I do not want Mexico, well actually there are parts I do want,

Screw it pull the troops home and let declare war on Mexico.

LETS OCCUPY MEXICO, instead of IRAQ,
Mexico has oil.

Ever play Risk?

Since: Jun 10

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#8
Nov 7, 2010
 
If we are out of Iraq and Afghanistan the Indians and Chinese would have to deal with them, and the Indians/Pakistanis know what were when who and how,

If they are pushed to deal with it just by America withdrawing.

They are not helping us, withdrawal, observe, Learn,
Leave it to local States, Pakistan an India, they do not play, if we withdraw, they will have to come to the mat, and we can still drop a bomb ever once and awhile and say No I do not anything about that who died?

Is it really all about that oil pipeline to Russia?
Let China have it,
We will develop Solar.

It really is about oil is it not.

A good President would say I demand this in 5 years, here is the money DO IT, make the USA SOLAR in 5 Years,
Comparable to that dude that said Hydro looks nice, DO IT.

OH, It is about Oil,
right, I am from GOD, and KNOW that one MAN can Make A difference.

Oh, you might meet the fate of John Kennedy or who was the Black dude?

That black dude died for nothing, I can not even remember his name, not Malcom X, oh, it was a Martin Luther Dude,

What did he ever accomplish in his lifetime?
He made a riot, that is about all he ever accomplished in his lifetime.

“God Loves Ilks!”

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Nov 7, 2010
 

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What are the arguments against school prayer?

Various arguments against school prayer are listed below:

* School prayer is unconstitutional. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment provides that government shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion. Because public schools are government funded, prayer led by school officials or incorporated into the school routine amounts to government-established religion.

* School prayer violates the “separation of church and state.” Although this phrase is not found in the U.S. Constitution, it is an accepted principle of American law providing that the government cannot interfere in the practices of the church nor advance or advocate religious observances in government settings.

* Public schools are intended for education, not religious observance or proselytization.

* Prayer is school is already legal. Students are already allowed to pray on a voluntary basis (in a non-disruptive way) so formal school prayer is unnecessary.

* School prayer may lead to intolerance. Public prayer will highlight religious differences of which students may have been unaware. Those students who abstain from school prayer or protest against it may be ostracized.

# School prayer is inherently coercive and cannot be implemented in a way that is truly voluntary. What young child could regard prayer as voluntary where it is lead by his teacher, incorporated into the school routine and engaged in by the majority of his peers?

# The public school system is created for all students and supported by all taxpayers. It should therefore remain neutral on religious issues over which students and taxpayers will differ.

# Since no formal school prayer could simultaneously honor and uphold the tenets of the many religions practiced in the U.S., as well as various denominational differences, prayer is better left in the home and religious institution of the individual student’s choice. A related argument is that school prayer usurps the role of parents and religious institutions who desire to provide religious instruction in keeping with their own beliefs.

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Nov 7, 2010
 

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Nettiebelle wrote:
What are the arguments against school prayer?
Various arguments against school prayer are listed below:
* School prayer is unconstitutional. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment provides that government shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion. Because public schools are government funded, prayer led by school officials or incorporated into the school routine amounts to government-established religion.
* School prayer violates the “separation of church and state.” Although this phrase is not found in the U.S. Constitution, it is an accepted principle of American law providing that the government cannot interfere in the practices of the church nor advance or advocate religious observances in government settings.
* Public schools are intended for education, not religious observance or proselytization.
* Prayer is school is already legal. Students are already allowed to pray on a voluntary basis (in a non-disruptive way) so formal school prayer is unnecessary.
* School prayer may lead to intolerance. Public prayer will highlight religious differences of which students may have been unaware. Those students who abstain from school prayer or protest against it may be ostracized.
# School prayer is inherently coercive and cannot be implemented in a way that is truly voluntary. What young child could regard prayer as voluntary where it is lead by his teacher, incorporated into the school routine and engaged in by the majority of his peers?
# The public school system is created for all students and supported by all taxpayers. It should therefore remain neutral on religious issues over which students and taxpayers will differ.
# Since no formal school prayer could simultaneously honor and uphold the tenets of the many religions practiced in the U.S., as well as various denominational differences, prayer is better left in the home and religious institution of the individual student’s choice. A related argument is that school prayer usurps the role of parents and religious institutions who desire to provide religious instruction in keeping with their own beliefs.
You know what makes them Americans (I know where you are) Fear GOD and get good grades in School,
THE DRAFT.

You would be surprise, surprise surprise, if there is a Draft.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Since: Feb 08

Philadelphia, PA

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#11
Nov 8, 2010
 

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My best friend in grade school was Jewish. Her father had the numbers tatooed on his arm. I always felt bad when we would all say Christian prayers and she would sit silently.

Teacher led school prayer is unacceptable and unconstitutional. I do not want anyone else, teacher or otherwise, taking upon themselves the religious instruction and development of MY CHILDREN in a public school.

I will fight tooth and nail to keep officially led prayer out of the school system. I am religious. I have respect for my religion (Religious Society of the Friends of Jesus - Quakers) and will not suffer my religion to be so degraded.
Tickedoffchick

Enfield, CT

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Nov 8, 2010
 

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I'm sure the Fundamentalists wouldn't be happy if the prayers of other religions were mandatory in school and their children had to sit through them.
Why must they constantly be reminded that they're not the only people on this planet?
Bottom line, they want protestant prayer in public schools because they're to cheap to fund a private Christian school education for their children.
These people are too ill-educated, themselves, to understand the separation between Church and State.

To blame the absence of public school prayer on the state of society, today, is ludicrous. Children are exposed to so much more, today, than they were forty - fifty years ago.
ccrider

Sacramento, KY

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#13
Nov 8, 2010
 
Thanks to all of you for your comments thus far on this subject.

I had not thought about the draft issue that was brought up.

Nettiebelle had some good posts, too.
Tickedoffchick

Enfield, CT

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Nov 8, 2010
 

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Oh, one more thing - The Fundamentalist leadership is pushing this argument with the clear intention of blurring the boundries between Church and State.
ccrider

Sacramento, KY

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Nov 8, 2010
 

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Nettiebelle: I watched a show that was about 10 or 11 years old where a father of a Columbine victim spoke at a church. I think he touched upon the issue of 1962 being when prayer was removed & less violence then. I forget his exact words. His daughter had tried to witness to at least one of the boys who did the shooting. At the day of the shooting, she was shot in the leg. She then tried to run and was shot in the chest. Then the shooter pulled her head up by her hair and asked her if she still believed in God: she said she did. He shot her in the head. The girl was born again, so she immediately went to be with the Lord.

However, whatever the reason or reasons that school atrocities like this have happened.......those reasons need to be addressed, if they haven't already. Whether it be the removal of school prayer, removal of the draft, the breakdown of family units, the drifting away from God in society in general, violent videos and movies, violent rap music; some thought and prayer needs to applied to these things.

Several years ago there was a school shooting here in Kentucky. Michael Carneal shot several students. One girl is in a wheelchair because of it. I don't remember the total casualities off hand.

You make good points about not offending kids of other faiths in school. But how can we stop this......prevent it from happening again? Yes, we can have metal detectors and guards, etc. But changing the hearts of the kids might help a lot, too. You know in the OT when the Jewish people stopped following God, He eventually let them suffer the consequences like being taking into captivity, etc. It is something to strongly think about.
Carrot_Stick

Boca Raton, FL

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Nov 8, 2010
 

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Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Thinking

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Nov 8, 2010
 

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Has the collapse in video cassette sales contributed to more violence?

“God Loves Ilks!”

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Nov 8, 2010
 

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Thinking wrote:
Has the collapse in video cassette sales contributed to more violence?
Yes, and put more folks into mental institutions too!

“God Loves Ilks!”

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ccrider wrote:
Nettiebelle: I watched a show that was about 10 or 11 years old where a father of a Columbine victim spoke at a church. I think he touched upon the issue of 1962 being when prayer was removed & less violence then. I forget his exact words. His daughter had tried to witness to at least one of the boys who did the shooting. At the day of the shooting, she was shot in the leg. She then tried to run and was shot in the chest. Then the shooter pulled her head up by her hair and asked her if she still believed in God: she said she did. He shot her in the head. The girl was born again, so she immediately went to be with the Lord.
However, whatever the reason or reasons that school atrocities like this have happened.......those reasons need to be addressed, if they haven't already. Whether it be the removal of school prayer, removal of the draft, the breakdown of family units, the drifting away from God in society in general, violent videos and movies, violent rap music; some thought and prayer needs to applied to these things.
Several years ago there was a school shooting here in Kentucky. Michael Carneal shot several students. One girl is in a wheelchair because of it. I don't remember the total casualities off hand.
You make good points about not offending kids of other faiths in school. But how can we stop this......prevent it from happening again? Yes, we can have metal detectors and guards, etc. But changing the hearts of the kids might help a lot, too. You know in the OT when the Jewish people stopped following God, He eventually let them suffer the consequences like being taking into captivity, etc. It is something to strongly think about.
I have a memory too.
Jerry Falwell on tv being interviewed probably the day after the Columbine tragedy.
A girl from the school called in a question for him.
"Why was she spared, yet, her friend, right next to her, was killed?"
Falwell's answer:
"Well, because God has a special purpose for you."

Does this answer mean that those kids who did die that day had no 'special purpose'?

cc, you tell me!

“Invisible Pink Unicorn”

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ccrider wrote:
Do you think that removing school sanctioned prayer in 1962 has contributed to more school violence, like Columbine? Has it contributed to more family problems? How many school shootings were there prior to 1962? Was there much of a drug problem in schools prior to '62? Back then more kids have both mom & dad at home, married to each other. Do you think the percentage is that high today? I don't think so. At least God was acknowledged in schools back then, & it seemed to have as a result fewer student problems. Even if you don't believe in God, you cannot deny that things like school shootings, drugs, & more broken homes occur now than they did prior to 1962.
The mom and dad at home raising their own kids has more to do with it then praying in schools.

Today casing the mighty dollar seems more inportant to most people these days.We see it all the time a lady has a baby and is back to work in a month. Let so mimmin wage person raise their kids for them. What a shame.

Back then more people cared about family lived within their means saved for a raining day.Today having a good time is whats is more important.

It's not god in schools its mom and dad not being around.

A few days ago I went to school to talk to my boys school teachers and pick up his report card. A long time teacher told me the school stopped mailing home report cards because not many would come talk to teachers. She said that even doing that did not help much.it's still the same the kids that are doing good in school parents will show up but the kids getting poor grades parents hardly ever show up.

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