Why Christians want others to believe
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#235 May 8, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Oh please lol. So whats stopping us from allowing a 50 year old to marry a 14 year old again?
2. Madscot suggested that. And was proven wrong when I pointed out the variety of countries that do not allow same sex marriage but are not christian nations.
1. Yet you have not yet tried to refute my point; "...procreation is the only thing a same-sex marriage cant fulfill on its own. Everything else a same-sex relationship can and does fulfill for the parties involved."

So I have to believe you know I'm right and reached for anything to say as rebuttal...
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#236 May 8, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Oh please lol. So whats stopping us from allowing a 50 year old to marry a 14 year old again?
2. Madscot suggested that. And was proven wrong when I pointed out the variety of countries that do not allow same sex marriage but are not christian nations.
2. Not sure what that point was...I dont always follow all the other posts...and FYI, not all us atheists are in lock-step. In fact most of us are not...

My point was marriage is and always has been a civil institution first and foremost and in this nation legally. I don't often rely on what other nations do about most things. I care most about the USA.
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#237 May 8, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>1. more civilized beliefs about consent, and rape! Not much of which we can find sourced from Religions. All the advances women have made in such avenues has been hard fought by people advancing secular ideas. Might there have been some Believers in the mix? Sure, but when push comes to shove, its the secularists, the humanists, etc who work the hardest for Human Rights.
Religions have no rights, nor any say as to what and how a marriage is defined in the civil system.
And dont keep playing this silly game of, "What IF?" What If people want to marry their couches, or marry someone by proxy...or marry a corpse, maybe marry their plush toy...stop the silliness, because its Xtian silliness.
Why do you rely so much on Xtian defensive arguments if You're not a Xtian? It doesn't make any sense.
Consent is a made up concept. Meaning the age of "consent" being 18 or 21 is made up. Or do you have something to back this up?

So I ask again whats stopping a 50 year old from marrying a 14 year old? If the only difference between a marriage of man/man and woman/woman is "procreation" than what is the difference between a 50 year old marrying an 18 year old vs a 50 year old marrying a 14 year old?

OH and lets see. A christian is someone that believes and follows Jesus. I do neither. So again how can you call me a christian again?
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#238 May 8, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>2. Not sure what that point was...I dont always follow all the other posts...and FYI, not all us atheists are in lock-step. In fact most of us are not...
My point was marriage is and always has been a civil institution first and foremost and in this nation legally. I don't often rely on what other nations do about most things. I care most about the USA.
That was his point. He suggested that the marriage of man/woman was a christian invention. I then asked him why other countries that are not christian nations ONLY allow man/woman marriages. No answer.

That is you. Me and madscot were not discussing what only the US did vs anything else before you hopped in
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#239 May 8, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Yet you have not yet tried to refute my point; "...procreation is the only thing a same-sex marriage cant fulfill on its own. Everything else a same-sex relationship can and does fulfill for the parties involved."
So I have to believe you know I'm right and reached for anything to say as rebuttal...
There are roles that a father takes and a mother. When you only have two of either, it can effect the child. And I dont think we have enough info on the effect of same sex marriage and its effect on children as of yet.

And my rebuttal made perfect sense. Whats the difference between a 50/14 year old marriage and a 50/18 year old marriage? Can you name one besides the made up concept of "consent"?
mztza

Mesa, AZ

#240 May 8, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
Why would you think it better that everyone thought and believed exactly the same? If we all liked the color blue the same, spoke the same, and believed the same...
Boring! Plus, I doubt humanity would have moved out from under the trees, much less into caves and beyond had we all thought and believed exactly the same.
My suggestion to you is to stop wishing on fantasies.
i can see that it would be strange to believe and feel and have the same opinion
i guess it would be strange,
if everybody didn't believe in murder, stealing, adultry, lying,
in betrayals, i guess to some who have the same thinking, that is normal life and a reality
to some that agrees to stay faithful
believes in dignity, honor, trust, kindness, mercy,
i guess to some this is a fantasy
but wouldn't it be nice if it was a reality for all
thats too bad, that for some
goodness is boring, and unrealistic
boring maybe for some,
but atleast to others,
their would be no need, to suffer, misery, hurt, tears, depressions,
happiness, starts with the first step, to achieve this fantasy

“When you die, nothing happens.”

Since: Sep 12

Gurabo, PR

#241 May 8, 2013
mztza wrote:
<quoted text>
because not all believe,
if one follows GODS principles, there would never hear or see atrocities
those who, have no belief in GOD,
have malice, hate, cruelty in their heart and fear
those who refuse to believe,
their theory is, kindness, mercy, is
WEAKNESS
why is it, some won't love fully, commit to a relationship,
because they are afraid, of getting betrayed, getting hurt
we have alot of scared people, thats why some pretend to not being hurt, because it's weakness
everybody is afraid to show love, mercy, kindness,, they think thats an open invitation to get
used, abused, conned, hurt, made fun of
thats why there is so much atrocities here,
because of fear
you see, not only we need courage, courage to stand firm, but also wisdom
when to say, NO
i'm not allowing this to continue in my life or where ever i am
courage is the first step
wisdom is the second step
THRU GODS principles, all falls into place

God's principles? You haven't said anything that cannot exist without religion. Courage and strenght is found outside religion you know?
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#242 May 9, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Consent is a made up concept. Meaning the age of "consent" being 18 or 21 is made up. Or do you have something to back this up?

So I ask again whats stopping a 50 year old from marrying a 14 year old? If the only difference between a marriage of man/man and woman/woman is "procreation" than what is the difference between a 50 year old marrying an 18 year old vs a 50 year old marrying a 14 year old?

OH and lets see. A christian is someone that believes and follows Jesus. I do neither. So again how can you call me a christian again?
Oh no, no, no...you just made up that consent is made-up. You lay out something to back that up. That's a specious tactic and you should know better...I hope.

Now youre simply playing the old xtian game of not supporting your rebuttals, and going straight to asking more questions...

You use every Xtian excuse and tactic there is...so either you're a wannabe Xtian, or a Xtian groupie...I'll avoide the drity talk this time. But youre a groupie.

But if not, exactly what is your Faith-Belief system, that you spend so much time defending Xtians and using their arguments and apologies...?
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#243 May 9, 2013
mztza wrote:
<quoted text>
i can see that it would be strange to believe and feel and have the same opinion
i guess it would be strange,
if everybody didn't believe in murder, stealing, adultry, lying,
in betrayals, i guess to some who have the same thinking, that is normal life and a reality
to some that agrees to stay faithful
believes in dignity, honor, trust, kindness, mercy,
i guess to some this is a fantasy
but wouldn't it be nice if it was a reality for all
thats too bad, that for some
goodness is boring, and unrealistic
boring maybe for some,
but atleast to others,
their would be no need, to suffer, misery, hurt, tears, depressions,
happiness, starts with the first step, to achieve this fantasy
I'm not sure WTF that post means...? If you'd stop writing in stanzas, it might help...I'm not sure. Maybe try for clearly defined thoughts that are not run-on sentences...

The following quote of yours makes no F'n sense...none! Maybe to you, but the rest of us are not in your head...and frankly by the looks of things there are already too many in there already ...

You; "if everybody didn't believe in murder, stealing, adultry, lying,
in betrayals, i guess to some who have the same thinking, that is normal life and a reality"

Same thinking? Who?

From what I can glean from your post is that you 1. eliminate everything that makes humans human, like emotions. 2. You are totally ignoring the system YOUR God created and put into action.

So I really have no idea what the he// you're talking about...and I'm not being facetious...I truly have no idea where youre going with all this...except to feed on fantasies.

Why isn't everyone attractive, the same height, weight...immune from illness...?
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#244 May 9, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>

1. There are roles that a father takes and a mother. When you only have two of either, it can effect the child.

2. And I dont think we have enough info on the effect of same sex marriage and its effect on children as of yet.

3. And my rebuttal made perfect sense. Whats the difference between a 50/14 year old marriage and a 50/18 year old marriage? Can you name one besides the made up concept of "consent"?
3. Prove that consent is made-up? Why in hell do most civilized non-theocratic, non-despotic, megalomaniac ruled nations use the the idea of consent in their legal systems?

Its you making up a defense that you in no way supported. I'm relying on legal systems that have instituted and codified the very real concept. You say its all made up. When you add such a specious notion to a discussion you HAVE TO back it up with something real. So do it!

Let me give you a head start, though you dont deserve it. Are you saying that if you hold a gun to my head and force me to give you all my money, I consented...? That if an older man comes along and manipulates a 14yo (I see no other way) to marry him its consent? What if he lied and said he was 21?

There are very real reasons why we among most civilized nations instituted such laws...

Come on Fly, you're being belligerent, while going wholly off the rails...

1. Yes, they do. But sometimes, neither does either very well...sometimes the Mom is more Dad than the Dad, and vice versa...talk about confusing...I know many people who come from those families.

Many people have been successfully raised by same sex adults - who are not married to each other. A mom and her sister, or her mother (grandmother) or a father and a brother, or his father (grandfather).

I know many people raised by single moms and dads who suffer no ill-effects. While most of the people I know were raised by a traditional mom-dad and suffer many, many ill-effects. In fact, I'd say the ones from traditional marriages suffer more...its no magic pill.

I cant imagine that you think that opposite-sex marriages eliminate all ill-effects..? Living effects a child...

So does not being loved...and if a same-sex couple can provide a loving, nurturing, supportive environment, who seek to fill in the blanks that such a union MIGHT incur (exposure to uncles, and aunts, grandparents, sports teams, etc, etc...as even opposite sex couples do!) I see no reason to block same-sex couples from having/raising children.

Its absurd to me that because of some religious prejudices that we are going to try and stop people from loving and caring for their offspring or those put up for adoption.

Would you rather let children languish unloved and not adopted, etc, etc, because of what SOME Religions say is the Rules!?? Or because it makes you feel icky...?

Excuse my French here, but I say anyone who thinks a child can't be loved and raised properly by willing and engaged parents of the same-sex - can go F themselves and the horse they rode in on!

Such prejudices are apostasy to me!

2. Irrelevant.

We have loads of info that a caring, nurturing, supportive environment does wonders for a child.

How the parents make love is irrelevant to me...what matters is how they support and treat their children...
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#245 May 9, 2013
non-megalomaniac
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#246 May 9, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
There are roles that a father takes and a mother. When you only have two of either, it can effect the child. And I dont think we have enough info on the effect of same sex marriage and its effect on children as of yet.
And my rebuttal made perfect sense. Whats the difference between a 50/14 year old marriage and a 50/18 year old marriage? Can you name one besides the made up concept of "consent"?
The difference? 4 years - which can make a HUGE difference. Is it perfect? Never said it was...

Hey, Fly, why dont we allow 14 yo boys join the Military? How about 10yo's? Like some places do...?
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#247 May 9, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
There are roles that a father takes and a mother. When you only have two of either, it can effect the child. And I dont think we have enough info on the effect of same sex marriage and its effect on children as of yet.
BTW, not all marriages create children. Should we make such marriages illegal? Should we stop 55+ yo's from marrying?(arbitrary age, where children would not be wanted or possible)

What about the infertile? What about people who simply don't want children?

Not all same-sex marriages will have children in the picture.

The right (which doesnt actually exist, if you want to talk about what doesnt exist!) to Marry is not hinged on the couple HAVING to HAVE children. And the rights same-sex couples are fighting for, are not to have children - its all the other civil rights arbitrarily gifted to opposite-sex couple marriages.

IMO, these rights bestowed on the married are arbitrarily gifted, wholly discriminatory and therefore wholly illegal. The tax breaks, the insurance breaks, the medical rights, etc, etc all discriminatory and IMO Unconstitutional.

Sidebar; I've always felt the homosexual community missed the boat in this fight. They should have gone with eradicating the marriage privileges that are discriminatory against not only their community but many others. Like singles, and those who have lost, or willfully abandoned or been abandoned by family (gays! people with alternative POV)...the elderly, the infirm...the childless...all being discriminated against...
Flygerian

Chickasha, OK

#248 May 9, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh no, no, no...you just made up that consent is made-up. You lay out something to back that up. That's a specious tactic and you should know better...I hope.
Now youre simply playing the old xtian game of not supporting your rebuttals, and going straight to asking more questions...
You use every Xtian excuse and tactic there is...so either you're a wannabe Xtian, or a Xtian groupie...I'll avoide the drity talk this time. But youre a groupie.
But if not, exactly what is your Faith-Belief system, that you spend so much time defending Xtians and using their arguments and apologies...?
I said there being an "Age of consent" is made up. Then I asked you whats the difference between a 50 year old marrying and 18 year old and a 50 year old marrying an 18 year old? Maybe since I asked it again you will answer.

Another question that remained unanswered (unless you answered it later) is if I do not believe in Jesus how can I be a christian?
mztza

Mesa, AZ

#249 May 10, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>I'm not sure WTF that post means...? If you'd stop writing in stanzas, it might help...I'm not sure. Maybe try for clearly defined thoughts that are not run-on sentences...
The following quote of yours makes no F'n sense...none! Maybe to you, but the rest of us are not in your head...and frankly by the looks of things there are already too many in there already ...
You; "if everybody didn't believe in murder, stealing, adultry, lying,
in betrayals, i guess to some who have the same thinking, that is normal life and a reality"
Same thinking? Who?
From what I can glean from your post is that you 1. eliminate everything that makes humans human, like emotions. 2. You are totally ignoring the system YOUR God created and put into action.
So I really have no idea what the he// you're talking about...and I'm not being facetious...I truly have no idea where youre going with all this...except to feed on fantasies.
Why isn't everyone attractive, the same height, weight...immune from illness...?
thats ok, if you can't fathom an earth without sin,
since, it's an everyday thing here
GOD doesn't want us to be denided of emotions,
he wants us to feel, tenderness, love, trust, everything positive, happiness
i gather from what you feel,
that if you don't feel hatred, want revenge, envy, anger, murder from the heart
thats denying you as a human being
don't worry, there are many more who feel the same,
in order to have satisfaction, rebel against everything that GOD stands for,
and i'll do all the bad i want, like rape, steal, and so on,
and they, like you want to blame GOD for man, polluting the air, water, and food,
so when someone gets an illness, due to the chemicals in our food,
lets blame GOD
when the choice to drive drunk, and got stopped, or crashed, even ran over somebody
lets blame GOD
when getting busted for betraying a loved one
lets blame GOD
when caught stealing
lets blame GOD
when caught for littering or polluting
lets blame GOD
getting busted for using drugs or selling
lets blame GOD
and expect MERCY from GOD
who's decision was it to do those things, nobody, twisted their arm
they weren't denied their feelings of regret and wished it felt ok to do those things
stop blaming GOD for your own wrongs
stop, playing the victim, man up on your mistakes

Punisher

Bronx, NY

#250 May 11, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Consent is a made up concept. Meaning the age of "consent" being 18 or 21 is made up. Or do you have something to back this up?
So I ask again whats stopping a 50 year old from marrying a 14 year old? If the only difference between a marriage of man/man and woman/woman is "procreation" than what is the difference between a 50 year old marrying an 18 year old vs a 50 year old marrying a 14 year old?
OH and lets see. A christian is someone that believes and follows Jesus. I do neither. So again how can you call me a christian again?
Its not made-up. We codified it. Consent then we choose an age that was most appropriate.

Im not going to chase YOUR tail like this. Consent is a legal concept that we can and do enforce. That we might shift the age, is irrelevant...whats important is the CONSENT and what all that means.

Its not likely we'll lower the age - not in our lifetimes. In our concepts, in our laws and understanding of Human behaviors and psychology we have gleaned that a 14 yo is incapable of giving real consent in a sexual relationship. As well as still being under the charge of their parents.

But when are you gonna answer my Q's. 1. Defend your POV that consent is made up. Show me why you believe that is so. 2. Why not let 14yo's join the military? Why don't we let them? We know many would gladly go "play" soldier.

Fly you sure do a good job of avoiding presenting any of your own arguments/support. You love to deflect by asking more questions.
Punisher

Bronx, NY

#251 May 11, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
I said there being an "Age of consent" is made up. Then I asked you whats the difference between a 50 year old marrying and 18 year old and a 50 year old marrying an 18 year old? Maybe since I asked it again you will answer.
Another question that remained unanswered (unless you answered it later) is if I do not believe in Jesus how can I be a christian?
I answered it! Whats your F'n problem!?!? That you dont like it -is not my problem.

Whats crazy is that YOU have yet to answer mine? Support your POV that consent is made-up. Can you do that? If so do it!

You use all Xtian POV's and arguments, etc - so okay, your 94% Xtian with a little left to adopt.

How do you not believe in Jesus? Do you mean he's not a God, the Son of God, the messiah, etc..? Which Xtian beliefs re; Jesus dont you hold? You walk like a duck, talk like a duck...are you simply a duck mimic? A sheep in ducks clothing?
Punisher

Bronx, NY

#252 May 11, 2013
mztza wrote:
<quoted text>
thats ok, if you can't fathom an earth without sin,
since, it's an everyday thing here
GOD doesn't want us to be denided of emotions,
he wants us to feel, tenderness, love, trust, everything positive, happiness
i gather from what you feel,
that if you don't feel hatred, want revenge, envy, anger, murder from the heart
thats denying you as a human being
don't worry, there are many more who feel the same,
in order to have satisfaction, rebel against everything that GOD stands for,
and i'll do all the bad i want, like rape, steal, and so on,
and they, like you want to blame GOD for man, polluting the air, water, and food,
so when someone gets an illness, due to the chemicals in our food,
lets blame GOD
when the choice to drive drunk, and got stopped, or crashed, even ran over somebody
lets blame GOD
when getting busted for betraying a loved one
lets blame GOD
when caught stealing
lets blame GOD
when caught for littering or polluting
lets blame GOD
getting busted for using drugs or selling
lets blame GOD
and expect MERCY from GOD
who's decision was it to do those things, nobody, twisted their arm
they weren't denied their feelings of regret and wished it felt ok to do those things
stop blaming GOD for your own wrongs
stop, playing the victim, man up on your mistakes
Blah, blah, blah...

STOP trying to be profound...you're failing. Stop making shyte up, and stop the stanza structure its most annoying.
Punisher

Bronx, NY

#253 May 11, 2013
mztza wrote:
<quoted text>
thats ok, if you can't fathom an earth without sin,
since, it's an everyday thing here
GOD doesn't want us to be denided of emotions,
he wants us to feel, tenderness, love, trust, everything positive, happiness
i gather from what you feel,
that if you don't feel hatred, want revenge, envy, anger, murder from the heart
thats denying you as a human being
don't worry, there are many more who feel the same,
in order to have satisfaction, rebel against everything that GOD stands for,
and i'll do all the bad i want, like rape, steal, and so on,
and they, like you want to blame GOD for man, polluting the air, water, and food,
so when someone gets an illness, due to the chemicals in our food,
lets blame GOD
when the choice to drive drunk, and got stopped, or crashed, even ran over somebody
lets blame GOD
when getting busted for betraying a loved one
lets blame GOD
when caught stealing
lets blame GOD
when caught for littering or polluting
lets blame GOD
getting busted for using drugs or selling
lets blame GOD
and expect MERCY from GOD
who's decision was it to do those things, nobody, twisted their arm
they weren't denied their feelings of regret and wished it felt ok to do those things
stop blaming GOD for your own wrongs
stop, playing the victim, man up on your mistakes
I never said any of these things. So STOP deflecting YOUR shyte onto me/others. Stop making things up.
Punisher

Bronx, NY

#254 May 11, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
I said there being an "Age of consent" is made up. Then I asked you whats the difference between a 50 year old marrying and 18 year old and a 50 year old marrying an 18 year old? Maybe since I asked it again you will answer.
Another question that remained unanswered (unless you answered it later) is if I do not believe in Jesus how can I be a christian?
Answer my Questions. Do you have the cajones?

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