“And God saw that it was good”

Since: Dec 08

Pontotoc, Mississippi

#22 Oct 13, 2009
Wayne wrote:
<quoted text>
We are born with the propensity to sin. If we were born sinners from the womb, what about the infants death,,and so on? I think there is an age where we realize and know right from wrong...and do wrong,, it is sin. I have no idea what the age is,,it may vary from individual to individual.
You do agree that we are born sinless, but that we all do become sinners. This propensity? what causes it in your opinion. I am aware of the word, but for arguments sake that others may be searching for answers, clarify.
The rest of your quote is clear and I do agree.

Since: Aug 08

Somewhere in Ireland

#23 Oct 13, 2009
The Faithful Witness wrote:
Peace be with you Dell.
We are born into a corrupt system.
When we are born we are without blemish.
During the first year of life, we fall from
grace when we identify with one of our
parents(in most instances.)
This is why we need do be born again,
so that we can be restored to the way
we where at birth.
I will be posting some messages on our
topix forum(Believers Information Network)
that will answer many questions about
the curse that is imposed on man soon
after birth.
The Faithful Witness
"....we fall from grace when we identify with one of our parents."
Tell me, who the hell is a baby supposed to identify with if not their parents. You people talk the biggest load of crap! I hope you never had children though, because in your case I wouldn't want any child identifying with an idiot like you!

“And God saw that it was good”

Since: Dec 08

Pontotoc, Mississippi

#24 Oct 13, 2009
OutoftheSaltShaker wrote:
Adam and Eve sinned in the beginning - they had only one rule that they had to obey and they chose not to obey God. God wanted to protect them from suffering but they chose not to listen to God. They couldn't go back or take back their bite they were stuck. So, anyone who is born from the seed of their earthly father is birthed with sin because Adam and Eve chose to disobey God in the beginning. You know that is true because a baby can get really, really mad when you don't come when they cry. That is their first bout of anger. Which, given a man/woman who gets that angry ususally attaches hateful words and sometimes threats of some kind of abuse. This happens because we naturally are born sinners. But we can't just rely on that being our only reason we are a sinner. All it takes is for us to tell just one lie or to lust after another person or to steal something big or small, etc...to make us a sinner. We are guilty no matter which way we look at it. But I do believe we are born sinners and we choose to sin each and every day. And it is that reason why Jesus is so special because His Father is God not man. And, God never sinned. Jesus is born through a women but His Father's seed is from God. Our seed that is from our earthly fathers. That is why we are sinners but Jesus never sinned. He was never born a sinner nor did He sin.
You are careful to say it is the "seed of the father" that we get our sin from. The problem with that is you would have to say that women are only half the sinners of men. Yes, many women would agree with that!
The other problem with this is the bible also speaks of the seed of a woman.
Also another problem is the Church teaches that we inherit our sinfulness from both father and mother. That being said you have painted yourself into a corner with that because then it could be said that Marry the mother of Jesus was a sinner and also passed her sinfulness down to the Christ and we know that did not happen.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

A baby does soon have a struggle with the flesh as we all do. A baby crying hardly qualifies for sin. How else should they communicate when they can't speak?
I believe it is that struggle with the flesh that leads us into sin. We are born only with our spirit to guide us and our spirit is out of proportion to the environment that we live in. Being in a carnal body and living in a carnal world with carnal needs and desires kinda tips the scales to the favor of living carnal. Living carnal is enmity with God. Not because we need those things or even that we desire things, but rather because we place those things before God. When our needs and wants take the place of God (because God should always come first and foremost)we sin. I don't think a baby is aware of putting God first.

You said "All it takes is for us to tell just one lie or to lust after another person or to steal something big or small, etc...to make us a sinner".
So you do agree in your heart that we are not born sinners, but that we become sinners? You may say one thing with your mouth, but believe another with your heart. Theology teaches us one thing, but we really know better. That's why we all know babies do not go to hell and the wrath of God is not against them, because they are not born sinners nor are they guilty of sin.

James 4:17 "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin".

“And God saw that it was good”

Since: Dec 08

Pontotoc, Mississippi

#25 Oct 13, 2009
OutoftheSaltShaker wrote:
I respect your views but I still have to say I disagree.
John 1:9 is saying that Jesus is the True Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. This is not talking about Jesus making every man that is born to be born sinless. It is saying that Jesus is the enlightening every man/woman ever born. Giving them hope of Salvation from their sins.
Consider Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Also, consider Romans 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
What are your views on these verses?
Thanks for chatting with me about your views.
Salty
I would like to say something on Rmns.5:12. and will get back to later on the rest.
This verse is one that has been used for proving beyond a shadow of doubt that we are born sinners. I disagree. It does show that we are all under the curse of death as it says,Death passed to all. Not only did it pass to all men, but it also passed to the entire universe. Everything is falling apart.It is in a state of decline. As this is covered in Romans 8, even the creature groneth.
The last part is what throws one off. For that all have sinned.
What does that mean "for that all have sinned"? to narrow it down, What is "for that" speaking of?
I think to get that answer one would have to go back to the fall of man.
God said do not eat and if you do you will die. Adam disobeyed and ate. He was put out of the garden least he eat of the tree of life and live forever.
Can you imagine what would have happened to man if he was allowed to live forever and not put God first? We could do anything without fear of death. How wicked would it be by now? Even more than before the flood.
It was God doing man a favor by not allowing us to live forever in that state of corruption. God put Adam out to give him just as desired, to live life his way. Adam being a carnal man in a carnal world depended on his own skills to stay alive. His own children would have to struggle for survival. Its that struggle that we go through that builds our faith. We depend on God every time we say no to the flesh and yes to God.

Death passed not Sin, but it was because death passed that we were put in the position to make the same choice that Adam did. Obey God or Obey the lust of our flesh.
Not just obey God, but just to obey what we know is right, the right that we know as a even a natural man without ever knowing the God of the bible.

“And God saw that it was good”

Since: Dec 08

Pontotoc, Mississippi

#26 Oct 13, 2009
Alphabet wrote:
<quoted text>
You can not possibly be serious. Why are you a sinner because Adam (if ever existed) did not obey God? Are you also a murderer because Cain killed his brother?
That would fall under what is considered generational cures or generational sins. Of which I do not agree with either. My father was an alcoholic, smoked, and did not go to church, where as I do not drink or smoke and I do go to church.

Sin is a choice.

“"Matt. 4:4"”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#27 Oct 13, 2009
Dell Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
You do agree that we are born sinless, but that we all do become sinners. This propensity? what causes it in your opinion. I am aware of the word, but for arguments sake that others may be searching for answers, clarify.
The rest of your quote is clear and I do agree.
Psalm 58:3 says,

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."KJV

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth."NAS

"Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies."NIV

“"Matt. 4:4"”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#28 Oct 13, 2009
Romans 5:12 says,

" Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"KJV

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned"NIV

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned"NAS

Even the Pharisees knew we were born sinners

John 9:34 says,

"They answered him, "You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?" So they put him out."NAS

"They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out."KJV

Is Gods word lying?

“"Matt. 4:4"”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#29 Oct 13, 2009
Dell Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
That would fall under what is considered generational cures or generational sins. Of which I do not agree with either. My father was an alcoholic, smoked, and did not go to church, where as I do not drink or smoke and I do go to church.
Sin is a choice.
Exodus 34:7 says,

"Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."KJV

Numbers 14:18 says,

"The LORD is long-suffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Once again, is Gods word lying?

Since: Aug 08

Somewhere in Ireland

#30 Oct 13, 2009
1INCHRIST wrote:
<quoted text>Psalm 58:3 says,
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."KJV
"The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth."NAS
"Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies."NIV
At what age do babies start talking in your insane world?
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#31 Oct 13, 2009
>>>OutoftheSaltShak er
Adam and Eve sinned in the beginning - they had only one rule that they had to obey and they chose not to obey God.

>>>Gillette
Actually, they had no knowledge of good or evil -- i.e. they were innocents -- before they actually ATE of the Tree of Knowledge of God and Evil.

So how could two innocents disobey God and commit sin? They lacked the requisite knowledge and intent to "sin." And surely your God KNEW that when it happened, and BEFORE that when He set them up with that trap ("Do not eat of this ONE TREE...").

>>>OutoftheSaltShak er
God wanted to protect them from suffering but they chose not to listen to God.

>>>Gillette
If God wanted to protect them from suffering, they would never have suffered.

There was NO REASON for your God to banish them eternally from Eden, make them suffer and die and make all future descendants suffer and die.

Quite an over-reaction to a bit of fruit-eating, wouldn't you say?

And there were any number of better, more mature and intelligent ways your God could have reacted to the supposed disobedience that really wasn't a sin.

>>>OutoftheSaltShaker
So, anyone who is born from the seed of their earthly father is birthed with sin because Adam and Eve chose to disobey God in the beginning.

>>>Gillette
That makes absolutely no sense. It may be Christian religious doctrine, but it makes absolutely no sense.

>>>OutoftheSaltShaker
You know that is true because a baby can get really, really mad when you don't come when they cry. That is their first bout of anger.

>>>Gillette
So anger is a sin? Even by a baby who just wants to be held?

>>>OutoftheSaltShaker
All it takes is for us to tell just one lie or to lust after another person or to steal something big or small, etc...to make us a sinner. We are guilty no matter which way we look at it.

>>>Gillette
This is Christian programming at work. You are taught to believe you are crap, so then the pastor can suggest an answer: Jesus!

It's called the Arsonist/Fireman Syndrome. Your religion creates the problem in the first place (or the PERCEPTION of a problem) then rides in heroically to fix the problem.

>>>OutoftheSaltShaker
That is why we are sinners but Jesus never sinned. He was never born a sinner nor did He sin.

>>>GIllette
1.) he was born of a woman and so shares at least 1/2 of her DNA. Why wouldn't he have "inherited sin" like any of us?

2.) cursing the fig tree was certainly sinful by any reasonable definition. Also assaulting and beating the merchants at the Temple, either once or twice depending on how you answer THAT Bible contradiction, was certainly sinful.
The Faithful Witness

South Africa

#32 Oct 14, 2009
Peace be with you Dell

We agree that a person is born without sin, the infant is an angel. The human being is created by our Father in heaven, without guile.

The infant loses his identity when he identifies with that which is without. Entity leads to identity. The world
imposes its identity on the infant after birth. We are born into a corrupted world system, and consequently become
corrupted through human interaction.

How do we know that this happens during the first year ?
When the child reaches the end of his first year his parents celebrate with a ritual. The ritual varies with
different cultures. In the western culture the child is
presented with a birthday cake, and a burning candle.
It is now expected of the child to blow out the candle
before he can have a piece of cake. When this happens
the parents are satisfied that the infant now conforms
to their wishes. Blowing out the candle implies spiritual death.The child has been coerced to believe that he has turned one, he has been told a lie.

This corrupted mindset is handed over from generation to generation. Unless the vicious circle is broken it will continue indefinitely. Sin entered the world through one man, and sin is passed on to all men after birth.
To suggest that sin is in the genes makes no sense at all.

Sin is not a choice, once a person becomes a sinner, he
cannot help himself, he constantly sins(is irrational).
He sins against the Holy Spirit and he will have to pay the price.It is only after the person is restored(converted),
through faith, that he can correct his ways.

Psalm 58:3 (King James Version)

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."
(The key word here is "speaking".)

I am the Faithful Witness

“There is no such thing”

Since: May 08

as a reasonable person

#33 Oct 14, 2009
The Faithful Witness wrote:
Peace be with you Dell
We agree that a person is born without sin, the infant is an angel. The human being is created by our Father in heaven, without guile.
The infant loses his identity when he identifies with that which is without. Entity leads to identity. The world
imposes its identity on the infant after birth. We are born into a corrupted world system, and consequently become
corrupted through human interaction.
How do we know that this happens during the first year ?
When the child reaches the end of his first year his parents celebrate with a ritual. The ritual varies with
different cultures. In the western culture the child is
presented with a birthday cake, and a burning candle.
It is now expected of the child to blow out the candle
before he can have a piece of cake. When this happens
the parents are satisfied that the infant now conforms
to their wishes. Blowing out the candle implies spiritual death.The child has been coerced to believe that he has turned one, he has been told a lie.
This corrupted mindset is handed over from generation to generation. Unless the vicious circle is broken it will continue indefinitely. Sin entered the world through one man, and sin is passed on to all men after birth.
To suggest that sin is in the genes makes no sense at all.
Sin is not a choice, once a person becomes a sinner, he
cannot help himself, he constantly sins(is irrational).
He sins against the Holy Spirit and he will have to pay the price.It is only after the person is restored(converted),
through faith, that he can correct his ways.
Psalm 58:3 (King James Version)
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."
(The key word here is "speaking".)
I am the Faithful Witness
That is one of THE most INSANE pieces of CRAP that I have ever wasted my time reading

“Jesus forgives..... ”

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#34 Oct 14, 2009
Dell Russell wrote:
It has been the view of many Christians for many centuries that man is born with a sinful nature or as some would call it "original sin". It really came to a head when a British monk named Pelagius confronted St. Augustine and Jerome about it. For the most part Augustine may have won the battle, but I believe it has done much damage to the Church in the long run.
I am a long time member of a SBC, but do not claim to hold to the Calvinist doctrines of which this teaching is part of (Total Depravity). Some may or may not consider me to even be a baptist or a Christian for that matter because of my view on this. I have studied it pretty well I think, but can not find that the scripture backs "original sin" or "one being born a sinner" when all scripture is taken into account and in context.
Our Sunday School lesson was on Psalms 51 this past week and when I said I disagreed with the interpretation of verse 5 taking the whole chapter in context. They didn't like that. Not that they were ready to throw me out, but they were very quick to tell me that yes we are born sinners. You have to understand that most of the men in my class are old enough to be my father or grandfather, I am the youngest. It kinda boiled down to, either we can live a sinless life or we are born sinners from their view. Of neither I believe. It seems to me that with Calvinism its an either or. No I do not believe in sinless perfection (unless your talking about Christ), but I do not believe that we are born sinners either.
Also what Christian denominations are there that do not believe in original sin?
What is your thoughts?
If we are not born sinners after God cursed Adam, then, we don't need Jesus anymore.

“Jesus forgives..... ”

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#35 Oct 14, 2009
Lil Ticked wrote:
<quoted text>That is one of THE most INSANE pieces of CRAP that I have ever wasted my time reading
The atheists are sinless!!!! Therefore, they can live by lack of God.

“There is no such thing”

Since: May 08

as a reasonable person

#36 Oct 14, 2009
Divine Alien wrote:
<quoted text>
The atheists are sinless!!!! Therefore, they can live by lack of God.
Who you calling an atheist, monkey boy?

“Jesus forgives..... ”

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#37 Oct 14, 2009
Lil Ticked wrote:
<quoted text>Who you calling an atheist, monkey boy?
You!

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#38 Oct 14, 2009
Divine Alien wrote:
<quoted text>
If we are not born sinners after God cursed Adam, then, we don't need Jesus anymore.
Yep. Truest thing you ever posted. Once Genesis has been disproven (it has), the rest falls like dominoes.

“Jesus forgives..... ”

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#39 Oct 14, 2009
Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep. Truest thing you ever posted. Once Genesis has been disproven (it has), the rest falls like dominoes.
Yeah, since you are an atheist, you are sinless.

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#40 Oct 14, 2009
Divine Alien wrote:
<quoted text>Yeah, since you are an atheist, you are sinless.
Yes, everyone is "sinless" in the sense of pissing off some insecure and thankfully imaginary diety.
That's probably beyond your ability of comprehension.

“Life Force One”

Since: Jul 07

The Spiritual Universe

#41 Oct 14, 2009
The Faithful Witness wrote:
Peace be with you Dell
We agree that a person is born without sin, the infant is an angel. The human being is created by our Father in heaven, without guile.
The infant loses his identity when he identifies with that which is without. Entity leads to identity. The world
imposes its identity on the infant after birth. We are born into a corrupted world system, and consequently become
corrupted through human interaction.
How do we know that this happens during the first year ?
When the child reaches the end of his first year his parents celebrate with a ritual. The ritual varies with
different cultures. In the western culture the child is
presented with a birthday cake, and a burning candle.
It is now expected of the child to blow out the candle
before he can have a piece of cake. When this happens
the parents are satisfied that the infant now conforms
to their wishes. Blowing out the candle implies spiritual death.The child has been coerced to believe that he has turned one, he has been told a lie.
This corrupted mindset is handed over from generation to generation. Unless the vicious circle is broken it will continue indefinitely. Sin entered the world through one man, and sin is passed on to all men after birth.
To suggest that sin is in the genes makes no sense at all.
Sin is not a choice, once a person becomes a sinner, he
cannot help himself, he constantly sins(is irrational).
He sins against the Holy Spirit and he will have to pay the price.It is only after the person is restored(converted),
through faith, that he can correct his ways.
Psalm 58:3 (King James Version)
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."
(The key word here is "speaking".)
I am the Faithful Witness
WOWEE!!!

Now this has to be the funniest, most insane, post of your's I've made the mistake of reading. You are totally messed up.

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