ORIGINAL SIN? Are we born sinners or do we become sinners?

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“And God saw that it was good”

Since: Dec 08

Pontotoc, Mississippi

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#1
Oct 12, 2009
 
It has been the view of many Christians for many centuries that man is born with a sinful nature or as some would call it "original sin". It really came to a head when a British monk named Pelagius confronted St. Augustine and Jerome about it. For the most part Augustine may have won the battle, but I believe it has done much damage to the Church in the long run.
I am a long time member of a SBC, but do not claim to hold to the Calvinist doctrines of which this teaching is part of (Total Depravity). Some may or may not consider me to even be a baptist or a Christian for that matter because of my view on this. I have studied it pretty well I think, but can not find that the scripture backs "original sin" or "one being born a sinner" when all scripture is taken into account and in context.
Our Sunday School lesson was on Psalms 51 this past week and when I said I disagreed with the interpretation of verse 5 taking the whole chapter in context. They didn't like that. Not that they were ready to throw me out, but they were very quick to tell me that yes we are born sinners. You have to understand that most of the men in my class are old enough to be my father or grandfather, I am the youngest. It kinda boiled down to, either we can live a sinless life or we are born sinners from their view. Of neither I believe. It seems to me that with Calvinism its an either or. No I do not believe in sinless perfection (unless your talking about Christ), but I do not believe that we are born sinners either.
Also what Christian denominations are there that do not believe in original sin?
What is your thoughts?
The Faithful Witness

South Africa

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#2
Oct 12, 2009
 

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Peace be with you Dell.

We are born into a corrupt system.
When we are born we are without blemish.
During the first year of life, we fall from
grace when we identify with one of our
parents(in most instances.)
This is why we need do be born again,
so that we can be restored to the way
we where at birth.

I will be posting some messages on our
topix forum(Believers Information Network)
that will answer many questions about
the curse that is imposed on man soon
after birth.

The Faithful Witness

“Life Force One”

Since: Jul 07

The Spiritual Universe

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#3
Oct 12, 2009
 

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That's just part of the Christian brainwashing system. To make you feel guilty about yourself, then throw in the fear mongering of all the terrible things the Christian demon "god" will do to you unless you believe all the lies they tell you.
Wayne

United States

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#4
Oct 12, 2009
 

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Dell Russell wrote:
It has been the view of many Christians for many centuries that man is born with a sinful nature or as some would call it "original sin". It really came to a head when a British monk named Pelagius confronted St. Augustine and Jerome about it. For the most part Augustine may have won the battle, but I believe it has done much damage to the Church in the long run.
I am a long time member of a SBC, but do not claim to hold to the Calvinist doctrines of which this teaching is part of (Total Depravity). Some may or may not consider me to even be a baptist or a Christian for that matter because of my view on this. I have studied it pretty well I think, but can not find that the scripture backs "original sin" or "one being born a sinner" when all scripture is taken into account and in context.
Our Sunday School lesson was on Psalms 51 this past week and when I said I disagreed with the interpretation of verse 5 taking the whole chapter in context. They didn't like that. Not that they were ready to throw me out, but they were very quick to tell me that yes we are born sinners. You have to understand that most of the men in my class are old enough to be my father or grandfather, I am the youngest. It kinda boiled down to, either we can live a sinless life or we are born sinners from their view. Of neither I believe. It seems to me that with Calvinism its an either or. No I do not believe in sinless perfection (unless your talking about Christ), but I do not believe that we are born sinners either.
Also what Christian denominations are there that do not believe in original sin?
What is your thoughts?
We are born with the propensity to sin. If we were born sinners from the womb, what about the infants death,,and so on? I think there is an age where we realize and know right from wrong...and do wrong,, it is sin. I have no idea what the age is,,it may vary from individual to individual.
Wayne

United States

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Oct 12, 2009
 

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Seentheotherside wrote:
That's just part of the Christian brainwashing system. To make you feel guilty about yourself, then throw in the fear mongering of all the terrible things the Christian demon "god" will do to you unless you believe all the lies they tell you.
Don't you get tired of spouting garbage?

Since: Oct 09

United States

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#6
Oct 12, 2009
 

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Adam and Eve sinned in the beginning - they had only one rule that they had to obey and they chose not to obey God. God wanted to protect them from suffering but they chose not to listen to God. They couldn't go back or take back their bite they were stuck. So, anyone who is born from the seed of their earthly father is birthed with sin because Adam and Eve chose to disobey God in the beginning. You know that is true because a baby can get really, really mad when you don't come when they cry. That is their first bout of anger. Which, given a man/woman who gets that angry ususally attaches hateful words and sometimes threats of some kind of abuse. This happens because we naturally are born sinners. But we can't just rely on that being our only reason we are a sinner. All it takes is for us to tell just one lie or to lust after another person or to steal something big or small, etc...to make us a sinner. We are guilty no matter which way we look at it. But I do believe we are born sinners and we choose to sin each and every day. And it is that reason why Jesus is so special because His Father is God not man. And, God never sinned. Jesus is born through a women but His Father's seed is from God. Our seed that is from our earthly fathers. That is why we are sinners but Jesus never sinned. He was never born a sinner nor did He sin.
The Faithful Witness

South Africa

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#7
Oct 13, 2009
 

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Peace be with the reader.

No person is born a sinner.
Even so, all fall from grace, and become sinners.
That is why a person needs to be born again.

" That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9

4 Jesus said,"The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live.
22 Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples,"These nursing babies are like those who enter the kingdom" (From the gospel of Thomas)

The Faithful Witness

“Search For Truth”

Since: May 08

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#8
Oct 13, 2009
 

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OutoftheSaltShaker wrote:
That is why we are sinners but Jesus never sinned. He was never born a sinner nor did He sin.
Are you sure? Isn't it a sin to kill a living organism? Didn't Jesus kill the fig tree for not having fruit? Especially so when the fig tree was not in season?

“There is no such thing”

Since: May 08

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#9
Oct 13, 2009
 

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When do we start holding the mentally disabled or the "insane" accountable for their sins? How is this realization of right and wrong evaluated?

“There is no such thing”

Since: May 08

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#10
Oct 13, 2009
 

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Alphabet wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you sure? Isn't it a sin to kill a living organism? Didn't Jesus kill the fig tree for not having fruit? Especially so when the fig tree was not in season?
It was the DEVILS tree . It deserved it.

Since: Oct 09

United States

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#11
Oct 13, 2009
 
I respect your views but I still have to say I disagree.

John 1:9 is saying that Jesus is the True Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. This is not talking about Jesus making every man that is born to be born sinless. It is saying that Jesus is the enlightening every man/woman ever born. Giving them hope of Salvation from their sins.

Consider Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Also, consider Romans 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
What are your views on these verses?

Thanks for chatting with me about your views.
Salty

Since: Oct 09

United States

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#12
Oct 13, 2009
 

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Alphabet wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you sure? Isn't it a sin to kill a living organism? Didn't Jesus kill the fig tree for not having fruit? Especially so when the fig tree was not in season?
No, it isn't a sin to kill a living organism. Otherwise it would be a sin for us to eat anything. We have to harvest plants and eat them.

Consider these verses...Genesis 1:29-30 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Also, consider...Genesis 9:2-3 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

By these verse, we are told that it is not wrong to kill plants or animals.

I do understand your point of view though. It isn't a sin to destroy the plant, but is He sinning because He got angry? That is the real question.

I still say NO, because anger by itself is not sin, it is how we use that anger that is sin.(Ephesians 4:26) Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Jesus didn't kill a living soul - it was a living organism, but God gave dominion to us all over the plants and animals. We don't however have the right to kill a living soul. People are the only ones who have souls, not plants nor the animals.

“Search For Truth”

Since: May 08

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Oct 13, 2009
 

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OutoftheSaltShaker wrote:
<quoted text>
No, it isn't a sin to kill a living organism. Otherwise it would be a sin for us to eat anything. We have to harvest plants and eat them.
Consider these verses...Genesis 1:29-30 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Also, consider...Genesis 9:2-3 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
By these verse, we are told that it is not wrong to kill plants or animals.
I do understand your point of view though. It isn't a sin to destroy the plant, but is He sinning because He got angry? That is the real question.
I still say NO, because anger by itself is not sin, it is how we use that anger that is sin.(Ephesians 4:26) Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Jesus didn't kill a living soul - it was a living organism, but God gave dominion to us all over the plants and animals. We don't however have the right to kill a living soul. People are the only ones who have souls, not plants nor the animals.
I respectfully disagree. Jesus did not just kill a living organism for food. He cursed the tree to death by anger because it did not bear fruits. This is a big sin. Not only that, but he should have known that Passover (in the springtime) is not fig season, a fact that rightfully Mark admits. Aside from the obvious question as to why Jesus, being so big on forgiveness, did not forgive the fig tree (or even heal it), or how is it possible for Jesus to expect figs in the wrong season (a fact that even children know). I wonder how is it possible to curse something to die, which has done nothing wrong. I suppose it is the same as God supposedly killed all animals during flood. It seems that it ties up with your logic that there is no problem in destroying animals and plants. Thank God people have matured ethically since then. It's only a few, yourself included, that have been left 2000 years behind.

“Search For Truth”

Since: May 08

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#14
Oct 13, 2009
 

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OutoftheSaltShaker wrote:
Adam and Eve sinned in the beginning - they had only one rule that they had to obey and they chose not to obey God. God wanted to protect them from suffering but they chose not to listen to God. They couldn't go back or take back their bite they were stuck. So, anyone who is born from the seed of their earthly father is birthed with sin because Adam and Eve chose to disobey God in the beginning.
Again with respect this is wrong. How come we can only carry the sin of Adam & Eve and not carry the sins of our parents, grandparents, greatgrand... and so on? They too had disobeyed God whilst sinning.

“Life Force One”

Since: Jul 07

The Spiritual Universe

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#16
Oct 13, 2009
 

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Wayne wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't you get tired of reading my garbage?
Yes.

“And God saw that it was good”

Since: Dec 08

Pontotoc, Mississippi

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#17
Oct 13, 2009
 
The Faithful Witness wrote:
Peace be with you Dell.
We are born into a corrupt system.
When we are born we are without blemish.
During the first year of life, we fall from
grace when we identify with one of our
parents(in most instances.)
This is why we need do be born again,
so that we can be restored to the way
we where at birth.
I will be posting some messages on our
topix forum(Believers Information Network)
that will answer many questions about
the curse that is imposed on man soon
after birth.
The Faithful Witness
Thanks for your reply TFW. I see that we do agree we are born sinless, but I don't know about the age of 1. I think it comes later than that, not much but a little at least. Paul stated in Romans 7:9 that he was alive once until the commandment came. Now we know that the commandments of God was already in place many years before Paul was even born, so he must have been talking about the commandments coming to his understanding. I don't think babies have that kind of understanding yet.
That verse has about three different translations that I can think of at the moment.
One being that some believe Paul is speaking of losing ones salvation due to his sinning. I say that because most believe chapter 7 is Paul speaking as saved man. They will use the "re" in revived to say it was done over again. The problem with that the "re" in the KJV is not nessarily saying to do over again, it just means "for the first time". Also that is where the false doctrine of man before Adam comes in, because they will use the "re" in replenish to say the earth was already inhabited once.The word replenish only means to fill. I personally think Paul is using his past state as an example momentarily to show how it all works.

Another would be that is when Paul died spiritually.

To be continued....
Carrot_Stick

Boca Raton, FL

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#18
Oct 13, 2009
 

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Original sin, or the propensity to sin for the liberal types among us, is the spring in the Christian trap. After we pick at the eternal life bait, it powers the trap shut.

Since: Aug 09

Hernando, FL

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#19
Oct 13, 2009
 

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when adam sinned, we all sinned as if it was each of us taking that bite of disobedience. we do not become a sinner the moment of our first sin, we sin because we are sinners. adam's sin is the original sin. we all deserve Hell. if we saw ourselves as God sees us, we'd see how much love for us that He sent His Son to die for us. Jesus is the only who have or will ever live to be without sin because He is God in the flesh. it was impossible for Him to sin. He came to die in order for us to be redeemed back to God the Father.

“And God saw that it was good”

Since: Dec 08

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#20
Oct 13, 2009
 

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Dell Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for your reply TFW. I see that we do agree we are born sinless, but I don't know about the age of 1. I think it comes later than that, not much but a little at least. Paul stated in Romans 7:9 that he was alive once until the commandment came. Now we know that the commandments of God was already in place many years before Paul was even born, so he must have been talking about the commandments coming to his understanding. I don't think babies have that kind of understanding yet.
That verse has about three different translations that I can think of at the moment.
One being that some believe Paul is speaking of losing ones salvation due to his sinning. I say that because most believe chapter 7 is Paul speaking as saved man. They will use the "re" in revived to say it was done over again. The problem with that the "re" in the KJV is not nessarily saying to do over again, it just means "for the first time". Also that is where the false doctrine of man before Adam comes in, because they will use the "re" in replenish to say the earth was already inhabited once.The word replenish only means to fill. I personally think Paul is using his past state as an example momentarily to show how it all works.
Another would be that is when Paul died spiritually.
To be continued....
I tend to lean toward either Paul became aware of Law and tried to do the law, failed and then he separated from God. Or he became aware of sin already present in his life because he was confronted with the law (came to his understanding)and only then did he know what he has "done" was sin.

“Search For Truth”

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#21
Oct 13, 2009
 

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gil_more wrote:
when adam sinned, we all sinned as if it was each of us taking that bite of disobedience. we do not become a sinner the moment of our first sin, we sin because we are sinners. adam's sin is the original sin. we all deserve Hell. if we saw ourselves as God sees us, we'd see how much love for us that He sent His Son to die for us. Jesus is the only who have or will ever live to be without sin because He is God in the flesh. it was impossible for Him to sin. He came to die in order for us to be redeemed back to God the Father.
You can not possibly be serious. Why are you a sinner because Adam (if ever existed) did not obey God? Are you also a murderer because Cain killed his brother?

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