common sense, reason & science are winning over bronze age mythology

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Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#81
Nov 13, 2012
 

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Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Atheism is not the SAME type of Belief as is one in Gods. No more than faith in a car operating properly is the same as Faith in a God, or even faith in a loved one. There are gradations to faith.
I disbelieve that Gods and/or anything supernatural has been proved. Could it possibly exist...? Sure. But nothing that has been put forth as "proof" convinces me. And the biggest weight on that scale is the complete lack of any hard evidence for either Gods, or the supernatural. Calling something unexplained or mysterious, or divine is not now or ever has been hard, solid proof of any Gods or the supernatural.
You claim existence, I say no. Only the completely stupid dont see the huge difference in the two - and why the onus is always on the one making a claim of existence.
I say Im invisible. You cant see me can you? My claim is proof by your logic.
There are people on TV who call themselves BigFoot Hunters. I call them idiots running thru the woods. Why? Because no one has ever hunted one down! You cant call yourself a Hunter of an imaginary creature and demand all the claims are true - without driving into town with a BigFoot tied across your truck!
Same holds for Believers in Gods.
You'll never see proof to the extent that you want because you want to SEE with your own eyes. You may never get that till afterlife.

You claim "theres no existence" therefore (just like me) the claim is on you to prove. I know I cannot provide the proof that you want. I mean, I would say that proof is order but again I know thats not the type of proof you seek. But as I cannot PROVE existence to the extent you want, you cannot prove the NONEXISTENCE to the extent I want. It doesnt lie on one side but not the other. If you say "He doesnt exist" than you must prove that if you say that I must prove it for saying "He does exist". Thats FAIR.
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#82
Nov 13, 2012
 

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Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>A tooth drops out I get a quarter. Not a bad deal in my book. I slightly offend your God and I get smoted! Some teenager jerks off and gets killed an hour later - does eternity with his crotch on fire.
Lost tooth = quarter.
Make a mistake = spend an eternity smelling pube smoke.
Hmm...
Yup thats the belief. Make ONE MISTAKE and you're hell bound forever. Come on dude I know you're smarter than this. At least I believe you are
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#83
Nov 13, 2012
 

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Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
I would suggest that if the hope of reward and the fear of punishment is our only motivation our intelligence has not progressed much beyond that of the animals. You can train a dog to be good with reward and punishment.
'If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." - Albert Einstein
<quoted text>
“Infinities and indivisibles transcend our finite understanding…”- Galileo Galilei
<quoted text>
Mr. Sagan proved himself to be a very good thinker. The point Mr. Sagan was trying to make was that we don’t need to imagine some sort of “super human” type of god (Zeus, Thor, Yahweh, Allah) when we can just accept the physical laws that govern the universe as they are. We don’t have to believe in gravity. It is there whether we believe in it or not. Gods are not. They require belief.
"I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation.”- Albert Einstein
I agree that if people are only good because they fear punishment or want reward than they are not good. Because if you take the punishment away or the reward than most likely they wouldnt want to be good. But thats the difference between those that are good because they love their god and others and want to please both.

The laws were put into place by someone. Its like saying the current laws society had just always existed. That doesnt make sense does it? So it doesnt make sense that the universe would have laws that it has to abide by without someone putting it there. So I dont agree with that premise.

And Einstein may have said that but I dont see whats so hard to conceive about it. Just as the law judges you when you do wrong why couldnt the Creator if He chose to? Better question, who is gonna stop Him or even hinder Him for doing so? No one. I dont see whats so hard to conceive about that but than again I believe that its FACT that theres a Creator.
FSM

Melbourne, Australia

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#84
Nov 13, 2012
 

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Job wrote:
But what you're suggesting is that because of what I experience, and ex-Christians experience, and theists experience, and what Muslims think; that 'none' of us have had a genuine experience. Isn't that correct?
Yes, it's all in the mind.
Job wrote:
Do you try to convince your theist and Muslim friends that they have not had genuine experiences?
No, nor am I trying to convince you. I'm just sharing my opinion, which is what I do when Christians, Hindus, Muslims, or atheists at work ask for it. The nature of internet discussion forums means that I don't need anybodies permission to share my views.
Job wrote:
I actually do 'not' deny that they've had genuine experiences.
I take it that you don't accept that anyone has had a genuine experience with a god called Vishnu or Allah. Do you re-interpret their subjective experiences in light of your own personal experiences?
Job wrote:
I've never heard the experiences of an ex-Christian explained to me, but the experiences you mentioned of theists is not at all surprising.
An ex-Christian is someone who used to be just like you, or Nettie, or Wayne. Their experiences are almost exactly the same, though they now view those experiences in a different light. You wouldn't recognize them until they deconvert.
Job wrote:
In the book of Acts, there was a Roman Centurion named Cornelius who basically was a 'theist'. He obviously must have had some sort of experience, or something within his spirit man that lead him to believe in God. He prayed, and God heard his prayer, gave him a direct message ('before' he became a believer in Christ) to talk to a man named 'Peter' who presented him with the Gospel message.
Is it surprising to you that someone elses subjective experience of the world has led them to believe in Hinduism? What makes one persons subjective experience more 'true' than another?
Job wrote:
Now the Muslim co-workers/friends you didn't claim had similar 'experiences'. Just that they thought in a similar way if I understood you correctly. Well I don't know that they 'never' have similar experiences, but I do know that many in Muslim countries profess to have had visions of, or visitations from Jesus that lead to their conversion.
In the same way, many Christians convert to Islam. 1. How many Muslims have made the claim to have had a visitation by Jesus? 2. And, how would they know it wasn't just a demon imitating Jesus? 3. What would you do if an angel of Allah visited you to tell you that Islam is the truth faith?(Apologies, lots of Q's there.)
Job wrote:
I can also tell you that the absence of a 'relationship/interaction' experience among Muslims is and has been an issue. This has been their own profession.
Can you give me examples, preferably from current Muslims rather than converts to Christianity.
Job wrote:
I only know of one case (although there's probably others) of a proposed 'interaction' where a Muslim woman 'wanted' God to speak to her, which lead to a prompting to knock on a stranger's door with a milk bottle, where upon doing so found a man who desperately needed milk for his baby.
It's kind of a 'coined' phrase, but "God works in mysterious ways" seems true. There are some that God leads to Him that were not seeking God at all (like myself); and those who do a lot of searching, sometimes different religions before Jesus is revealed to them.
In my case, a search for the truth led me away from Christianity and all forms of religion.
FSM

Melbourne, Australia

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#85
Nov 13, 2012
 

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Job wrote:
So, no, your immediate dismissal of all parties involved does not make any sense to me.
There was nothing immediate about it. I've made a calculated decision to reject religion based on my own studies and life experience.
Job wrote:
What you might consider, is that although the different views (or religions) have conflicting messages, perhaps one of them 'does' contain the truth.
That has already been considered, but there isn't a person in the world with enough years left to study every single religion in-depth. That's why I prefer to look for patterns rather than absolutes. I see similar patterns emanating from all religions. To me, that's a significant and powerful enough reason to reject them all. They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.
Job wrote:
Obviously I believe Jesus Christ is the truth, and do not see any conflict whatsoever with the experiences and thought processes from those of other beliefs.
But for you to explore the possibilities would require the absence of an immediate shut down.
I think you misunderstand me. I've formed my own views after a lot of thought and study. I often come to understand new information that molds my views, but nothing I've seen in the last few years has even come close to altering my overarching views on religion. ie, it's all BS.
FSM

Melbourne, Australia

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#86
Nov 13, 2012
 

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janeebee wrote:
FSM: "I couldn't possibly convince you that what you experience isn't real and unique, and you couldn't convince me that it is."
How could what we experience NOT be real. We wouldn't experience it if it wasn't.
And all individual experience is unique unto the individual.
So it's not really a question of whether an individual's experience is unique and real; but of what individuals ASCRIBE their experience to.
A friend of mine took some acid and claims to have seen dinosaurs walking down the main street. I believe him, but I don't think that there were actual dinosaurs (neither does he, now). If 'we' were to accept every subjective experience as true, a lot of nutters would be out walking the streets right now rather than receiving the help they need. Yes, that's an extreme example, but it illustrates my point.

Not all experiences of the world are equal.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

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#87
Nov 14, 2012
 
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Even though people claim to be something does not mean they really are. The other thing to consider is that Hitler had the power to suppress organization and people he did not like. What did the agnostics do to stop Hitler? Can you name any?
What is it about the fact that in 1934, 95 % of registered voters in Germany (94% of which were Christian) went to the polls and gave Hitler 38 million "Yes" votes (90 percent of the vote) is it that you don’t understand?
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

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#88
Nov 14, 2012
 
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
What is your motivation for doing good?
The problem that Sagan had was that he could not even begin to explain why the physical laws of nature are the way they are. Even Einstein could be foolish-- just because he can't conceive of something does not mean its not true. This shows that even smart people can be fools.
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”- Steven Weinberg, theoretical physicist and Nobel laureate in Physics
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

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#89
Nov 14, 2012
 
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The last statement by Le Gallienne is rubbish. Christianity's impact on the world for good is incalculable. It founded hospitals, brought education to the poor, founded colleges and influenced the laws of countries for good. Do you know any agnostics or atheists have done anything like this for the past 2000 years? How about the last 500 years?
Read a history book. More people have been killed in the name of “God” than in the name of reason.

"A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might of the majority is behind it." - Albert Einstein
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

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#90
Nov 14, 2012
 
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree that if people are only good because they fear punishment or want reward than they are not good. Because if you take the punishment away or the reward than most likely they wouldnt want to be good. But thats the difference between those that are good because they love their god and others and want to please both.
The laws were put into place by someone. Its like saying the current laws society had just always existed. That doesnt make sense does it? So it doesnt make sense that the universe would have laws that it has to abide by without someone putting it there. So I dont agree with that premise.
And Einstein may have said that but I dont see whats so hard to conceive about it. Just as the law judges you when you do wrong why couldnt the Creator if He chose to? Better question, who is gonna stop Him or even hinder Him for doing so? No one. I dont see whats so hard to conceive about that but than again I believe that its FACT that theres a Creator.
"...if this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him? The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God." - Albert Einstein, Science and Religion (1941)
Job

Cupertino, CA

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#91
Nov 14, 2012
 
Big Al wrote:
1. <quoted text>
Stalin was also raised a Christian and attended Georgian Orthodox seminary.

2. He became an atheist and was just as anti-Christian, anti-Islam and anti-Buddhist as he was anti-Semitic.

3. Christianity ruled the Western World from the 4th century to the 18th and the results were spectacularly less than benevolent.
"As editor of the largest newspaper in West Virginia, I scan hundreds of reports daily and I am amazed by the frequency with which religion causes people to kill each other. It is a nearly universal pattern, undercutting the common assumption that religion makes people kind and tolerant." - James Haught, The Charleston Gazette
"Organized Christianity has probably done more to retard the ideals that were its founder's than any other agency in the world." - Richard Le Gallienne
1. Of course he was raised an Orthodox Christian. Everyone in Russia was prior to the communist takeover.

2. If Christianity was what really created Stalin's anti-semitism (which I assume is why you "predictably" brought up his Christian Orthodox upbringing), he would most likely have renounced "anti-semitism". And Hitler would not have deemed Christianity an inferior religion.

3. And in a far shorter period of time, "organized" atheism has made up for what it took religion many years to accomplish as far as death tolls. If "organized" atheism had ruled the world as long, chances are the death stats would be much greater.

Organized "anti-religion/atheism " is a brutal intolerant system. It's infant upstarts in the U.S., although merely making squeeking noises, is revealing it's intolerance (Freedom From Religion, various atheist groups).
Job

Cupertino, CA

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#92
Nov 14, 2012
 
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Read a history book.
You use this phrase quite often. It almost seems like some sort of initiation into dialogue.

What exactly are these books you feel we (Christians) have failed to read?

Are you talking typical school text book history?
Jeff

San Jose, CA

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#93
Nov 14, 2012
 
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
What is it about the fact that in 1934, 95 % of registered voters in Germany (94% of which were Christian) went to the polls and gave Hitler 38 million "Yes" votes (90 percent of the vote) is it that you don’t understand?
If I'm not mistaken Germany had state churches or something like that. Isn't also true that in 1934 Hitler did not lay out plan for the holocaust? The reason so many voted for him is that he promised so much but never revealed during his campaign how he was going to do this when he was elected.
You need to keep the historical context in mind.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

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#94
Nov 14, 2012
 
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Read a history book. More people have been killed in the name of “God” than in the name of reason.
"A man who is convinced of the truth of his religion is indeed never tolerant. At the least, he is to feel pity for the adherent of another religion but usually it does not stop there. The faithful adherent of a religion will try first of all to convince those that believe in another religion and usually he goes on to hatred if he is not successful. However, hatred then leads to persecution when the might of the majority is behind it." - Albert Einstein
It is not true that more people "have been killed in the name of “God” than in the name of reason." More people have been killed in political wars. WW1, WW2, Korean war and Viet-nam where over a 100 million were killed was not because of the name of God or any religion. These were political-military wars.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

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#95
Nov 14, 2012
 
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”- Steven Weinberg, theoretical physicist and Nobel laureate in Physics
Physicist should not be commenting in fields they ignorant of. Even if they are a Nobel laureate.

So what is your motivation for doing good? Who has been inspired by your reason for doing good?
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

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#96
Nov 14, 2012
 
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
You use this phrase quite often. It almost seems like some sort of initiation into dialogue.
What exactly are these books you feel we (Christians) have failed to read?
Are you talking typical school text book history?
In the 4th century CE the Roman Emperor Theodosius I made Christianity “the sole authorized religion” of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was one of the largest in history, and the only empire to have encompassed all of Europe as well as areas of the Middle East and North Africa. It lasted until the 16th century.

The history of the "Christian" Roman Empire especially the “holy wars”, inquisitions and persecutions that went on during that period of time show clearly why the founders of this country rejected all religious influence in government and public policy.

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." -Thomas Jefferson

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."--- Benjamin Franklin
Jeff

San Jose, CA

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#97
Nov 14, 2012
 
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
In the 4th century CE the Roman Emperor Theodosius I made Christianity “the sole authorized religion” of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was one of the largest in history, and the only empire to have encompassed all of Europe as well as areas of the Middle East and North Africa. It lasted until the 16th century.
The history of the "Christian" Roman Empire especially the “holy wars”, inquisitions and persecutions that went on during that period of time show clearly why the founders of this country rejected all religious influence in government and public policy.
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." -Thomas Jefferson
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."--- Benjamin Franklin
Jefferson' statement--"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned;.." is not factual. If we were to add up all persecutions by the church it would only be a few thousands. Not millions.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

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#98
Nov 14, 2012
 
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Physicist should not be commenting in fields they ignorant of. Even if they are a Nobel laureate.
I give more credence to the opinions of those people that have demonstrated a superior ability to think and reason (such as Mr. Einstein, Mr. Sagan, Mr. Weinberg, etc.). There are many that claim “divine revelation” and I don’t trust any of them.

"Being unable to reason is not a positive character trait outside religion." - Dewey Henize
Jeff wrote:
So what is your motivation for doing good? Who has been inspired by your reason for doing good?
You don’t have to believe in any god to understand that following the “Golden Rule” benefits everyone including yourself. All you have to do is think about it seriously.

There is nothing divine about morality; it is a purely human affair.- Albert Einstein
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

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#99
Nov 14, 2012
 
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Jefferson' statement--"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned;.." is not factual. If we were to add up all persecutions by the church it would only be a few thousands. Not millions.
Read a history book!
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#100
Nov 14, 2012
 
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
"...if this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him? The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God." - Albert Einstein, Science and Religion (1941)
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