Creation Rediscovered: Evolution & the Importance of the Origins Debate: Gerard Keane: Books

[Wayne]

Paul Zannucci wrote:

Thanks Kirdy and Wayne. Now I have to buy another book.
By the way, under the amazon reviews I found this:
"This book explains how the main so-called 'mechanism of evolution', natural selection, can be shown to actually disprove the theory of evolution. For example, a bird's wings (or flying reptile's) have to be perfectly designed for them to function. A prototype wing, that couldn't really bring flight, would have no reason to be 'selected' for further development. In fact, it would make the animal more likely to be encumbered and a prey to other animals."
See, that type of idle speculation shouldn't be associated, in my opinion, with Christianity. First of all, there is a general misunderstanding of evolution here. The prototype wing doesn't need to be useful to survive. It just needs to not be a hindrance. Second, we have no way of knowing that it wasn't useful. For instance, the prototype wing could have been spread to make the "flying lizard" as the book calls them look bigger and therefore scare off predators. In that case, the protowings would be beneficial and continuing to grow them bigger would create greater benefit. See, this is all just stupid and serving no purpose for God.

Now, I'm not a bit ashamed to say when I don't understand something. I don't think I understand what you just said. The part about that being "all just stupid and serving no purpose for God."

[Paul Zannucci]

Well, you can see from my example in the second paragraph that the example given in the first paragraph is nonsense. It is my opinion that spreading nonsense as Christian doctrine and/or belief does not help to spread the faith. In fact, by opposing reason we push people who are curious away, which is therefore against the purpose of God.

I don't really have anything against the quest for creationism and ID, but we are practically basing the validity of our religion on it, and that is an awful, awful thing. We can have Jesus and Darwinian evolution both. They are not mutually exclusive.

We may chase ID if we like, but there are far too many people who paint this as a war between religion and science, which is like saying there's a war between the Bible and addition. The Bible does not dispute any science and science does not dispute any of the Bible. The two work just fine together.

But we have a group of dedicated individuals out there who believe that faith is directly challenged by conventional science, and who are determined to fight science with their every breath. And the louder they get, the quieter the true call to God becomes for those who need to hear.

[Wayne]

Hmmmm. Ok. I am not one that is against science, though there are many who will call me a liar there. I am against the "science" of evolution. I think it takes God out of the Creator role and places Him on the sidelines as a spectator. There are Christians that have no problem with evolution. I for one do not believe we share a common ancestor with monkeys and rats and meerkats and all other mammals. God crowned the human race with honor and glory and created us a little lower than the angels. Psalms 8:5

Evolution? Changes within a species? No problem. From some ape like ancestor into the human race? I don't think so. I also think God IS an Intelligent Designer. He is The Creator.

Science has dome many, MANY things to benefit mankind. But it also produced the Atom Bomb.

[Paul Zannucci]

Evolution only "takes God out of the Creator role and places Him on the sidelines as a spectator" if you imagine it does. That's creationist hyperbole. To me, God created us purposefully through evolution, regardless of whether science finds His fingerprints there or not. Whether He did it through a trillion small changes or one big one, it was still His plan and design.

My opinion is that creationists, like all Christians, should just ignore evolution and stick to preaching the Word and helping people. Fighting evolution is stupid, plain and simple.

[Wayne]

Paul Zannucci wrote:

Evolution only "takes God out of the Creator role and places Him on the sidelines as a spectator" if you imagine it does. That's creationist hyperbole. To me, God created us purposefully through evolution, regardless of whether science finds His fingerprints there or not. Whether He did it through a trillion small changes or one big one, it was still His plan and design.
My opinion is that creationists, like all Christians, should just ignore evolution and stick to preaching the Word and helping people. Fighting evolution is stupid, plain and simple.

Then you don't take the Word of God about the creation of man literal? Well, that's your opinion. Evolution leads to atheism and that is as obvious as the sky is blue. At least the way the evolutionists and atheists teach it. Believe it or not.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them

Is Gods image a monkey? Or a common ancestor of?

[Writing in Paradise]

Paul Zannucci wrote:

<quoted text>
Are you telling me that you come on here and make fun of Christians but buy into this John Edwards crap? Now that's rich.

I don't know if John Edwards is the real deal or not. It does seem like he helps people, though.

[Writing in Paradise]

Wayne wrote:

<quoted text>
Then you don't take the Word of God about the creation of man literal? Well, that's your opinion. Evolution leads to atheism and that is as obvious as the sky is blue. At least the way the evolutionists and atheists teach it. Believe it or not.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them
Is Gods image a monkey? Or a common ancestor of?

Evolution doesn't lead to atheism any more than than rainbows lead to christianity. Evolution is accepted the world over, but atheists remain a tiny minority.

[Paul Zannucci]

See, that's what I'm talking about. How does what you just said relate to the message of Christ? Nothing leads to atheism but stupid hatred, and all of Christianity lately is stupid hatred.

Who are you to tell God how He created man? Who are you to police other Christian's opinions? Where is the love? Where is the message of God? Where is the love of enemies and the caring for one another? Why must Christians bash other Christians who believe that much of Genesis is a God-inspired parable? Where does Christ tell us to argue amongst ourselves and utter harsh words of condemnation?

I can tell you that most of the Christians on message boards appear, certainly, to have no love in their hearts. Only paranoid and angry agendas that look very like the paranoid and angry agendas of the atheists they argue with.

If we don't bring the love back to Christianity, which left with the arrival of mondern fundamentalism, then we are lost.

[Paul Zannucci]

Just for the record, Wayne, it's not you I'm talking about here. On my site, I wrote a comment to someone else saying that I believed that the Earth was several billion years old and that God created man through evolution. I then had to spend a portion of each day deleting posts from people who felt God had given them the power to condemn me to hell. Not only that, but my personal email is attached to that site so I was receiving emails at home over it. Some were so angry it was almost scary.

I want to make perfectly crystal clear the following sentiment: The road to hell is not paved with misconceptions about the book of Genesis. But all these people who hate in the name of Christ? I can only wish for them that there is no God at all. It would be better for them to be devoured by nothingness than to face what is coming.

[Paul Zannucci]

Writing in Paradise wrote:

<quoted text>
Evolution doesn't lead to atheism any more than than rainbows lead to christianity. Evolution is accepted the world over, but atheists remain a tiny minority.

Exactly

[Writing in Paradise]

Paul Zannucci wrote:

Just for the record, Wayne, it's not you I'm talking about here. On my site, I wrote a comment to someone else saying that I believed that the Earth was several billion years old and that God created man through evolution. I then had to spend a portion of each day deleting posts from people who felt God had given them the power to condemn me to hell. Not only that, but my personal email is attached to that site so I was receiving emails at home over it. Some were so angry it was almost scary.
I want to make perfectly crystal clear the following sentiment: The road to hell is not paved with misconceptions about the book of Genesis. But all these people who hate in the name of Christ? I can only wish for them that there is no God at all. It would be better for them to be devoured by nothingness than to face what is coming.

More and more we become the Saudi Arabia of the west.

[Noyzmakr]

Evolution/abortion/communism/s ocialism/Hitler's wild ideas all came out of the Eugenics movement.

Google it! Better yet, go to YouTube and search Eugenics there. It will open your eyes.

[Writing in Paradise]

Noyzmakr wrote:

Evolution/abortion/communism/s ocialism/Hitler's wild ideas all came out of the Eugenics movement.
Google it! Better yet, go to YouTube and search Eugenics there. It will open your eyes.

Those are untruths spread by creationists. Darwin did not support nor father eugenics. In fact, he was a noted liberal who opposed slavery and exploitation of third world nations.

[Noyzmakr]

Writing in Paradise wrote:

<quoted text>
Those are untruths spread by creationists. Darwin did not support nor father eugenics. In fact, he was a noted liberal who opposed slavery and exploitation of third world nations.

I didn't say Darwin "fathered" Eugenics, only that he believed in it's priciples.

Darwin and a few of his contemporaries built their homes near each other and pledged to only allow their particular family members to marry and have children with each others families in hopes of creating a super race. By the end of the second generation their kids were so enbred that they almost all were institutionalized.

Hitler was trying to do essentially the same thing, but on a larger scale.

Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, stated in her books that abortion was a means to allow the eradication of the "lesser races". that's exactly what abortion is now achieving. For every thousand black women, 32 have abortions, as compared with 11 for every thousand white women. Likewise with numbers of abortions per 1,000 births: The abortions/births ratio for white women was 184 abortions per 1,000 live births; for black women, it was 543 abortions per 1,000 births. This means that abortion ratios for black women were 2.8 times greater than those for white women.

Look it up. I dare you.

[Writing in Paradise]

Noyzmakr wrote:

<quoted text>
I didn't say Darwin "fathered" Eugenics, only that he believed in it's priciples.
Darwin and a few of his contemporaries built their homes near each other and pledged to only allow their particular family members to marry and have children with each others families in hopes of creating a super race. By the end of the second generation their kids were so enbred that they almost all were institutionalized.

That never happened. I swear, it's like you religious wackos can't even think.

[Wayne]

Paul Zannucci wrote:

Just for the record, Wayne, it's not you I'm talking about here. On my site, I wrote a comment to someone else saying that I believed that the Earth was several billion years old and that God created man through evolution. I then had to spend a portion of each day deleting posts from people who felt God had given them the power to condemn me to hell. Not only that, but my personal email is attached to that site so I was receiving emails at home over it. Some were so angry it was almost scary.
I want to make perfectly crystal clear the following sentiment: The road to hell is not paved with misconceptions about the book of Genesis. But all these people who hate in the name of Christ? I can only wish for them that there is no God at all. It would be better for them to be devoured by nothingness than to face what is coming.

I use some pretty harsh language here myself BUT only to those who sling it at me first. I too have no problem with a billions of years old earth and universe BUT I do believe the creation story of Genesis to be literally true. I won't send no hate mail or anything like that. I do my debating, or arguing, here on these boards. I would ask you this though Paul, show me ANY scripture referring to the evolution of mankind in the bible. BUT, there are MANY scriptures like this. They can not ALL be metaphorical. Here we see HE has made ALL things, created ALL things. There is no room for evolution in these scriptures.

Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Isaiah 48:14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

Isaiah 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

He has not spoken in secret from the beginning. He has created ALL things. Not through evolution. And THAT is showing the Love of Christ, that he had a personal hand in our formation.

[Wayne]

Writing in Paradise wrote:

<quoted text>
That never happened. I swear, it's like you religious wackos can't even think.

Well, he DID say look it up. Afraid to?

[Writing in Paradise]

Wayne wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, he DID say look it up. Afraid to?

I did. That's how I know it never happened.

[Kerdy 1]

Wayne wrote:

Hmmmm. Ok. I am not one that is against science, though there are many who will call me a liar there. I am against the "science" of evolution. I think it takes God out of the Creator role and places Him on the sidelines as a spectator. There are Christians that have no problem with evolution. I for one do not believe we share a common ancestor with monkeys and rats and meerkats and all other mammals. God crowned the human race with honor and glory and created us a little lower than the angels. Psalms 8:5
Evolution? Changes within a species? No problem. From some ape like ancestor into the human race? I don't think so. I also think God IS an Intelligent Designer. He is The Creator.
Science has dome many, MANY things to benefit mankind. But it also produced the Atom Bomb.

I agree. Had this taken place, we would have been told that it had, but instead, scripture says God created the universe and everything in it to include man, upright and complete. Or as he put it, it was "Good". Evolution and Creationism do not work together on any level. There is much speculation, but nothing that ties one species to another in the evolutionary chain. And it does indeed take God out of the pitcure completely.

[Kerdy 1]

Paul Zannucci wrote:

Evolution only "takes God out of the Creator role and places Him on the sidelines as a spectator" if you imagine it does. That's creationist hyperbole. To me, God created us purposefully through evolution, regardless of whether science finds His fingerprints there or not. Whether He did it through a trillion small changes or one big one, it was still His plan and design.

I am sure you can appreciate the problem this causes Paul. If the beginning of scripture is incorrect, none if it is. Its either accurate or it isnt.