The Religious Right are hypocrites: P...
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#21 Jun 12, 2013
paganbirdkeeper666 wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Are you talking about churches renting these facilities for meetings or are you talking about Christians holding prayer at sporting events or shows?
The former is legal,anyone can rent time and space in public auditoriums and parks etc.
The later it should not be legal for Christians or any other religion to hock their beliefs on people who have paid to watch a sporting event or show.

Recently in Florida some Pagans rented space at marina for a festival and all the Christians in that area tried to stop them and even said they would picket their festival. Also,a few yrs ago in Oklahoma, a satanic church rented the city hall to hold a public ritual on Halloween and the Christians there picked outside. I have never heard of Pagans or Satanists doing that to Christians when they rent space for their meetings and gospel concerts.
I'm talking about Christians who rent a facility. However, recently an atheist activist group "Freedom From Religion" took some high school cheerleaders to court for placing Bible scriptures on their signs. No one was apparently offended by this other than the "FFRF".

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865579703/...

Out of curiosity, if you don't mind me asking, what is your view on the "Freedom From Religion Foundation"?

2. I don't deny that these things happen to pagan organizations, and this was an event in the 90's in San Francisco. I didn't go, but know people personally who did:

http://www.beyondweird.com/Wicca/w_hour.html

I think this article is a bit misleading. The only marching through the city I recall was Christians marching from the parking lot or BART train station "in" to the Civic Auditorium.

I don't agree with Larry Lea's statement concerning "real Satan worshiping" going on. "If" he really made that statement, my guess is that he wasn't too familiar with "Laveyan Satanism".

But this was Christians renting an auditorium to hold a prayer meeting. I think most of the protesters and/or hecklers were from the gay community. But there were those who wore hoods, attempting to look intimidating, throwing smoke bombs, heckling the event-goers, etc.

The Warlock Eric Pryor apparently became a Christian that night. This may be disputed but I don't see any reason to doubt it. I think he had his ups and downs afterward like I and other Christians have. I think he has passed away fairly recently if I'm not mistaken.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#22 Jun 12, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you doubt that the members of Congress are almost all Christians?
If so, you're an even bigger idiot than previously determined.
You clearly have no clue of what Christian means.

Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)
8 all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#23 Jun 12, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL - that's ridiculous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and...
Actually it's quite accurate, O Biblically ignorant one.

"none of the wicked shall understand"

Daniel 12:10 (NKJV)
10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
Punisher

Brooklyn, NY

#24 Jun 12, 2013
Job wrote:
Some things to consider:
Very early American history. The founding fathers who we praise, and rightly so, for our freedoms that are unlike any other (whether or not that is changing is another issue), did not want a European type 'theocracy'(which was never really a theocracy in the true sense). Thus, their "religious tolerance" has lead to the freedom of speech, belief, right to pursue happiness, etc that we benefit from today.

However, as tolerant as they were, are they more tolerant than today's American Christians? It could easily be argued 'no'.

Apparently, the majority who were Christians were not to fond of deists...at first. But we can see that even the still existing laws in some States that require a belief in a Creator to run for office caters to deists, not just Christians. However, there's no visible evidence for tolerance of 'atheists'. They didn't like atheist for some reason back then. They seemed to be more tolerant of Muslims than atheists.'Today', Christians by comparison,'tolerate' atheists. This was a progressive change towards this 'tolerance'.

What atheists are generally upset about is Christians who use their freedom of speech to express their view that America's withdrawal from God is not a good thing. We Christians understand full well that because we live in a freedom of choice society, everyone has a right to choose what they wish to believe. The vast majority of Christians are not politicians. They don't want to intrude on anyone's rights. Every Christian I know minds their own business. They do 'not' want a European-like historical empire where people are 'forced' to confess Christianity.

What upsets atheists is when Christians gather together for things like prayer meetings that do not hurt anyone. Hold bible studies in their homes where there's about 50 or so people (there are house parties that have more than that).

Think about it, as many Christians as there have been throughout American history; atheism, agnosticism, Buddhism, hinduism, Islam, could easily have been outlawed.
Your/others arguments are easily defeated by using examples of these "founding", colonist Xtians behaving badly - because then you and others will come back and claim they were not TRUE Xtians.

Which in turn would negate your or any ones arguments that these Early American men and women were uber-Xtian (which they were not) and wanted, but didn't manage to pass enough Bible based laws and rights.

Again you think and put ideas in other peoples (atheists, etc) heads that you seriously do not understand.

Its not that you express your opinions that its bad that we've move away from God.(which is absurd in and of itself if SO MANY Americans are xtians) Its that when challenged on it, and the benefits of this previously Better Xtian state/condition, none of you can make a coherent argument or defeat the FACTS of the past that clearly example how not Righteous, and Pure and truly Jesus-like Xtians were, or this Nation itself was.

You all harken back to a condition that did not exist! Its all retro viewing, thru incredibly rose-colored glasses. there was no better closer to God period in this or any nation. Nothing was better because of some perceived closer to God conditions.

Yet the vast majority, nearly ALL, of politicians ARE Xtian. So whats your point? The vast majority of Xtians are not legit preachers either...what's your point?

The vast majority of atheists do not bother others either. And never did, but damn if when they're found out they werent in bothered by aggressive Xtians.

What bothers Xtians most about today's atheists, is that they are now expressing their freedom of speech, and protest. And in many cases being as loud as Xtians are about their faith. And that drives many of you nutz!

As for prayer meetings, fine by me, but dont force them on others, and frankly stop putting prayer where its not appropriate, like in the actual business functions of Gov't.
Punisher

Brooklyn, NY

#25 Jun 12, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
When I refer to prayer meetings, Bible studies, etc., I'm referring to public calls (invitations) to Christians on a wide scale. Sometimes involving occupying a complex like a sports venue, civic auditorium, etc. It gets more dicey of course when a politician is involved.
As far as home bible studies, I'm referring specific instances where the hosts are "fined" for holding them, as in a fairly recent case (although there have been a number of them) in San Juan Capistrano, CA (in this case the hosts eventually 'won' the case).
You refer to cases that are so few in number to be specious as line of argument.

All I sense in all these arguments of You/others about this unfair treatment of Xtians is a sense of privilege. Too many of you think that Xtians have a free-pass from critique and adhering to various rules, be they on paper, or a social norm.

Which is at the heart of Xtians crying persecution at nearly every turn when challenged...the glory days are over...get over it. Or go live in those backwater enclaves where the Preacher is the Sheriff, and postmaster, and the rules are loosened for the xtians "in good standing with the community", and to tight for those out of favor.
Look if one of my neighbors was creating a parking and traffic issue on my block by inviting a few dozen people to come over, no matter the reason, they would be confronted.(not aggressively) If they and their guests failed to respect their neighbors complaints, then the cops are called. Which is what has happened in most of the cases you refer to...not all but most.
Punisher

Brooklyn, NY

#26 Jun 12, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm talking about Christians who rent a facility. However, recently an atheist activist group "Freedom From Religion" took some high school cheerleaders to court for placing Bible scriptures on their signs. No one was apparently offended by this other than the "FFRF".
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865579703/...
Out of curiosity, if you don't mind me asking, what is your view on the "Freedom From Religion Foundation"?
2. I don't deny that these things happen to pagan organizations, and this was an event in the 90's in San Francisco. I didn't go, but know people personally who did:
http://www.beyondweird.com/Wicca/w_hour.html
I think this article is a bit misleading. The only marching through the city I recall was Christians marching from the parking lot or BART train station "in" to the Civic Auditorium.
I don't agree with Larry Lea's statement concerning "real Satan worshiping" going on. "If" he really made that statement, my guess is that he wasn't too familiar with "Laveyan Satanism".
But this was Christians renting an auditorium to hold a prayer meeting. I think most of the protesters and/or hecklers were from the gay community. But there were those who wore hoods, attempting to look intimidating, throwing smoke bombs, heckling the event-goers, etc.
The Warlock Eric Pryor apparently became a Christian that night. This may be disputed but I don't see any reason to doubt it. I think he had his ups and downs afterward like I and other Christians have. I think he has passed away fairly recently if I'm not mistaken.
If a group or organization holds what amounts to public meetings, even in a rented hall, they - no matter their cause - are subject to protest.

As to the FFRF, I'm not that informed on the group, but as long as they dont break the laws in their protests, they have that freedom. As do the KKK, and the Westboro Baptists...no has to like it, and we can limit their access to the parties they tend to aim to offend, esp the Westboro folks - but we cant stop them.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#27 Jun 12, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
You clearly have no clue of what Christian means.
Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)
8 all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Anyone who acknowledges that Jesus was the son of God, and who accepts Jesus as their Savior, is a Christian.

Most members of Congress acknowledges that Jesus was the son of God, and most of them accept Jesus as their Savior.

I'm sorry, but you're not entitled to your own definition of "Christian".

Who are you to judge who is or isn't a Christian anyway? Isn't that against what the Bible teaches?

You're a f*cking heretic! LOL - what irony! YOU are the one who is damned after all!

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#28 Jun 12, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
Anyone who acknowledges that Jesus was the son of God, and who accepts Jesus as their Savior, is a Christian.
Most members of Congress acknowledges that Jesus was the son of God, and most of them accept Jesus as their Savior.
I'm sorry, but you're not entitled to your own definition of "Christian".
Who are you to judge who is or isn't a Christian anyway? Isn't that against what the Bible teaches?
You're a f*cking heretic! LOL - what irony! YOU are the one who is damned after all!
Liars are not Christians O Biblically ignorant one.
little lamb

Australia

#29 Jun 12, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL - that's ridiculous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and...
No its not..Did you see Jesus running for political office??

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#30 Jun 12, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
Liars are not Christians O Biblically ignorant one.
Coming from a heathen like you, that's funny!
little lamb

Australia

#31 Jun 12, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
Anyone who acknowledges that Jesus was the son of God, and who accepts Jesus as their Savior, is a Christian.
Most members of Congress acknowledges that Jesus was the son of God, and most of them accept Jesus as their Savior.
I'm sorry, but you're not entitled to your own definition of "Christian".
Who are you to judge who is or isn't a Christian anyway? Isn't that against what the Bible teaches?
You're a f*cking heretic! LOL - what irony! YOU are the one who is damned after all!
Yes its not just ' lip service' I agree

the heart is also involved..obedience to the faith.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#32 Jun 12, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
Liars are not Christians O Biblically ignorant one.
Jesus lied, at least nine times that I can find:

1) And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain,`Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22)

2) Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.(Matthew 7:7-8)

3) Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.(Matthew 18:19-20)

4) Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain,'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours.(Mark 11:24-25)

5) And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.(Luke 11:9-13)

6) And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.(John 14:13-14)

7) If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.(John 15:7)

8) It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you.(John 15:16)

9) On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.(John 16:23-24)

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#33 Jun 13, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
Coming from a heathen like you, that's funny!
Bible believers are not "heathen" O Biblically ignorant one.

Mk 16 he that believeth not shall be DAMNED.

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#34 Jun 13, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus lied, at least nine times that I can find:
Matthew 12:36 (NASB)
36 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.

EVERY WORD!
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#35 Jun 13, 2013
Punisher wrote:
1. <quoted text>Your/others arguments are easily defeated by using examples of these "founding", colonist Xtians behaving badly - because then you and others will come back and claim they were not TRUE Xtians.

2. Which in turn would negate your or any ones arguments that these Early American men and women were uber-Xtian (which they were not) and wanted, but didn't manage to pass enough Bible based laws and rights.
1. I personally tend to avoid making claims on who is, and who isn't a Christian. While it's true that there are visible fruits that one can detect suggesting 'genuine', change is not always immediate. The person who wrote "Amazing Grace" is said to have had 'slaves' after conversion, and didn't release them, in similar fashion to the OT law concerning voluntary servitude, until after 7 years of his conversion. Except that the change of attitude was gradual instead of immediate. He released them out of conviction rather than actually practicing the OT law concerning 'servitude'.

I don't know for sure if this account is fact, but I think it's a good picture of what I'm getting at.

2. What's an "uber-Christian"? If there is any such thing as an "uber-Christian", I guess it would have to be one who had the greater capacity to 'serve'.

But we have historical record of a 'collective' seeking guidance from God. And it would certainly appear that whether one wants to give credit to God, prayer, and biblical principles, a very unique type of nation/government was born. The fact that there was praying, seeking divine guidance, biblical influence is undeniable. Whether or not one wants to credit this to God is an individual choice.

Job

Santa Clara, CA

#36 Jun 13, 2013
Punisher wrote:

1. Again you think and put ideas in other peoples (atheists, etc) heads that you seriously do not understand.
Its not that you express your opinions that its bad that we've move away from God.(which is absurd in and of itself if SO MANY Americans are xtians) Its that when challenged on it, and the benefits of this previously Better Xtian state/condition, none of you can make a coherent argument or defeat the FACTS of the past that clearly example how not Righteous, and Pure and truly Jesus-like Xtians were, or this Nation itself was.

You all harken back to a condition that did not exist! Its all retro viewing, thru incredibly rose-colored glasses. there was no better closer to God period in this or any nation. Nothing was better because of some perceived closer to God conditions.
Yet the vast majority, nearly ALL, of politicians ARE Xtian. So whats your point? The vast majority of Xtians are not legit preachers either...what's your point?

2. The vast majority of atheists do not bother others either. And never did, but damn if when they're found out they werent in bothered by aggressive Xtians.
What bothers Xtians most about today's atheists, is that they are now expressing their freedom of speech, and protest. And in many cases being as loud as Xtians are about their faith. And that drives many of you nutz!

1. There was 'never' a period of time that America was a 'utopia'. But there's a bit of an irony here. When I lived in 'Oakland', local churches ran (and probably still do) block parties. It was a 'reaching out' to the people in the neighborhood(s). A function, we could say, the/a church is 'supposed' to do. The equivalent we could say to these 'block parties' in more elaborate nearby communities would be the 'art festivals','food festivals','ethnic festivals', etc. The difference was that with these 'block parties' there was prayer involved, and the Gospel message was given to those who attended the parties (of course I don't really know if prayers go into 'art' festivals or not). The neighborhoods where these block parties are held have a significant amount of crime.

After these block parties are held, there's been noticeable differences in the overall atmosphere of the neighborhoods, including decline in crime. Enough so that the Oakland Tribune would give column time of said event within the pages of their newspaper.

This type of scenario of mixing Church/Christianity with community events would probably not be tolerated in middle-class communities. But the Oakland government, I think, when finding something works decided not to take the "keep religion inside the home" approach. It's the same type of scenario with prisons. There's no denying the positive effect of Christian ministry within prison facilities.

Do you think these Urban block parties, and prison ministries "must stop" because religion/Christianity is being invoked?

2. What bothers me is attempts to have Christian monuments removed, high school cheerleaders being restrained from putting Bible scripture on signs, etc.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#37 Jun 13, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
As for prayer meetings, fine by me, but dont force them on others, and frankly stop putting prayer where its not appropriate, like in the actual business functions of Gov't.
You do realize however that you're suggesting something that was not a part of earliest American governmental history right? They 'did' pray in government functions, and held church services in government facilities.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#38 Jun 13, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>You refer to cases that are so few in number to be specious as line of argument.
All I sense in all these arguments of You/others about this unfair treatment of Xtians is a sense of privilege. Too many of you think that Xtians have a free-pass from critique and adhering to various rules, be they on paper, or a social norm.
Which is at the heart of Xtians crying persecution at nearly every turn when challenged...the glory days are over...get over it. Or go live in those backwater enclaves where the Preacher is the Sheriff, and postmaster, and the rules are loosened for the xtians "in good standing with the community", and to tight for those out of favor.
Look if one of my neighbors was creating a parking and traffic issue on my block by inviting a few dozen people to come over, no matter the reason, they would be confronted.(not aggressively) If they and their guests failed to respect their neighbors complaints, then the cops are called. Which is what has happened in most of the cases you refer to...not all but most.
The issue with the neighborhood Bible study wasn't about 'noise'. It was about holding a religious function within a home without a license.

When you're talking about Christians and "Christian privilege complex", you're bringing up a general problem that seems to be growing in terms of a sentiment that leans towards 'vindictiveness'. I'm not implying that 'you' are 'vindictive', but I think there's a vindictiveness in nature that's developing. Christians have a right to demand 'rights' as much as anyone. Whatever privileges we may have had historically is irrelevant.

From what I've gathered, like myself you are a 'white male'. Like myself, I gather that you believe all races should be treated 'equally', have the same exact rights. We should all be equal across the board.

How do you feel about racial retribution? What would you think about the idea that Caucasians should experience what racial minorities have experienced/do experience? How would you like 'us' to have to always sit in the back of the plane? Not be allowed access to the lounge room of an Amtrak train?

Or, how about handing over our rights to vote as 'men', only allowing women to vote, because at one time women were 'not' allowed to vote.

Even if all of this was temporary (for a year or two) just to get a taste of what it was like?

My guess is that like me, we just want to see us all have equal rights 'without' even going through a 'temorary racial/gender penitence.

When retributionary thought sets in, even if only slightly, irrationality is setting in as well.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#39 Jun 13, 2013
Punisher wrote:
1. <quoted text>If a group or organization holds what amounts to public meetings, even in a rented hall, they - no matter their cause - are subject to protest.

2. As to the FFRF, I'm not that informed on the group, but as long as they dont break the laws in their protests, they have that freedom. As do the KKK, and the Westboro Baptists...no has to like it, and we can limit their access to the parties they tend to aim to offend, esp the Westboro folks - but we cant stop them.
1. My response was actually in response to a statement pertaining to Christians picketing a pagan and satanic organizational function.

2. True. I'm basically voicing my opinion of their 'cause'. Not suggesting their removal.
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#40 Jun 13, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
Liars are not Christians O Biblically ignorant one.
Yet you lie. And will lie. You lie that Xtians do no sin. So therefore you are not a true Xtian. You lie that this state of being saved exempts You from sinning. Do you claim you are pure and free from sin?

You lie that YOU know and can recognize a TRUE Xtian. Other than the stupid reference to "their fruits", whats your litmus test for a TRUE Xtian? Share it, cause we all want to find these few TRUE Xtians...I for one want to witness a TRUE Xtian in actual action outside of some Xtian theme zoo-park.

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