Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#103 May 12, 2013
Jesus is wrote:
VIDEO COLTON BURPO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =dOoPziumEMEXX
As for me, in matters of the soul, I’m a devout agnostic. What astounds me, what has always astounded me, is not that so many people are so certain of their beliefs but that they excoriate people who don’t share them. As a child, I repented for my doubt. Now I embrace it. Religious dogma is not verifiable; science is fallible. Uncertainty is the only belief system I feel sure of.

Reading about Colton’s meeting with Jesus, I kept thinking of my grandmother. At her funeral, my stepfather, a onetime preacher, related a dream she told him six or eight months before. Though a lifelong atheist, she dreamed she died and went to heaven. She was shown to a mansion with ornate and gilded doors. Beyond them, she knew without looking, lay more rooms than she could count. This would be her eternal resting place.

“Were you excited?” he asked her.(Maybe this was it — maybe she would finally accept Jesus as her personal savior and lord!)“Wasn’t it great to see your reward?”

“Hell, no,” Granny said.“Who’s going to dust those goddamned doors?”

No sooner had these words left my stepdad’s mouth and a laugh started to rise under the funeral tent than a strong wind came and blew the flowers off the coffin. The wreath slammed to the ground. And then it started to rain.

From "My Son Went to Heaven, and All I Got Was a No. 1 Best Seller"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/magazine/my...

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#104 May 12, 2013
Jesus is wrote:
KENNETH RING IS FOUNDING CHIEF AND EDITOR OF THE JOURNAL OF NEAR DEATH STUDIES, MORON:
OFhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki /Journal_of_Near-Death_Studies
Yes he is, and here's an excerpt from Vol. 29:

"First, it is indubitable that most, if not all aspects of the NDE fit entirely into neuroscientific knowledge: observations from reduced cerebral oxygenation, drug intake, sleep-wake cycle disturbances, awareness during anaesthesia, brain damage, epilepsy and direct brain stimulation all clearly point to neural correlates of NDE-related phenomena. Then, there is the embarrassing failure to find even one irrefutable case of 'veridical perceptions' during brain inactivity (or simply unconsciousness), whereas such cases should be all over the place according to any transcendental or non-reductionist account. Finally, we have the mounting evidence of crosscultural differences in NDEs, various suggestive psychological correlates associated with those who report these experiences, and the largely silenced cases that indicate plainly hallucinated (i.e. non 'veridical') features."

So we're in agreement - according to research published in the scholarly peer-reviewed JNDS, NDEs are not proof of an afterlife but rather a glimpse into how our brains react to trauma.

Check, mate, and match.

I accept your apology, your concession, and your wise decision to stay away from a topic which you are not mentally equipped nor educated enough to debate.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#105 May 12, 2013
In an article in the prestigious British medical journal Lancet about Near Death Experiences, in which of 344 cardiac patients resuscitated from clinical death, 12 percent reported near-death experiences, where they had an out-of-body experience and saw a light at the end of a tunnel.(Lommel, P. V., R. V. Wees, V. Meyers, I. Elfferich. 2001.“Near-Death Experience in Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands.” Lancet. Vol 358 No. 9298: 2039.)

One final curious caveat appears in the Lancet paper:“The investigators report that, at the 2-year follow-up, four of 37 patients contacted to act as controls (i.e., people who had not initially reported an NDE) reported that they had had one. Although these patients represent fewer than 1% of the total sample, they represent over 10% of the 37 patients interviewed with a view to acting as controls. If this subsample is at all representative, it implies that around 30 patients from the sample of 282 who initially denied an NDE would, if they had survived for another 2 years, be claiming that they had had one.” Some of the NDEs were, it seems, implanted memories.
The point is that during a resuscitated cardiac arrest the ability of the brain to get oxygen can be quite variable, and if the CPR is done effectively the brain gets enough oxygen that it is not damaged. By the definitions presented in the Lancet paper, nobody experienced clinical death. No doctor would ever declare a patient in the middle of a code 99 dead, much less brain dead. Having your heart stop for 2 to 10 minutes and being promptly resuscitated doesn’t make you “clinically dead”. It only means your heart isn’t beating and you may not be consciousness. Declaring someone dead if their heart isn’t beating is not a good definition.

What about brain death? Here there are many criteria: the patient has to have no clinical evidence of brain function by physical examination, including no response to pain and a variety of nerve reflexes that do not work: cranial nerve, pupillary response (fixed pupils), oculocephalic reflex (steady gaze), corneal reflex (lack of reflexive blinking to stimulation), and no spontaneous respirations. They have to be off all drugs that mimic brain death for several days and they cannot have metabolic conditions that mimic death. It is important to distinguish between brain death and states that mimic brain death and most of the patients received either a benzo (valium like drugs) and/or a narcotic. A flat line EEG, two at least 24 hours apart, is another criteria. In other words, being declared brain dead is a time consuming and detailed procedure, as it should be.

I am not saying NDEs don’t happen, and I am certainly not going to disagree with the idea that nearly dying is transformative. It is probably why real NDEs have greater effects on people than lab induced NDEs. The knowledge that you are truly mortal is life altering. Cancer survivors can have the same epiphany without the cardiac arrest.

The devil is in the details. As is so often the case, when you go back and read the original paper and its references, what the paper says and what the paper is purported to say often turn out to be two very different things.

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/08-06-18/#fea...

----------

Every day there is more and more evidence that NDEs are NOT proof of an afterlife.
Jesus is

Blacktown, Australia

#106 May 12, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
NDEs have been scientifically proved to be lucid dreams, not visions.
THEY HAVE NOT!!!!! SCIENTISTS ARES STILL WORKING IT OUT!!!!!
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>But that aside, ask yourself: if NDEs are visions, then why do Hindus see Krishna when they have NDEs?
Why do Muslims see Mohammed?
Why do atheists see a higher form of themselves?
NDEs are culturally biased. If NDEs were a vision of the afterlife, then everyone would see the same thing regardless of what they were culturally conditioned to see.
Find me examples.
little lamb

Australia

#107 May 12, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
NDEs have been scientifically proved to be lucid dreams, not visions.
But that aside, ask yourself: if NDEs are visions, then why do Hindus see Krishna when they have NDEs?
Why do Muslims see Mohammed?
Why do atheists see a higher form of themselves?
NDEs are culturally biased. If NDEs were a vision of the afterlife, then everyone would see the same thing regardless of what they were culturally conditioned to see.
A vision doesn't have to be from God you know

Jeremiah 14:14

Then Jehovah said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.
Jesus is

Blacktown, Australia

#108 May 12, 2013
ARE NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES JUST LUCID DREAMS?

NO!
Even a minimal definition of a lucid dream requires that you realize that you dream during the experience. NDEs fail this test because people who have experienced them usually vehemently deny that they could have possibly dreamed it. They did not believe that they dreamed during the experience, and often continue to deny this possibility even after subjected to strong social pressure to do so.

AFTER EFFECTS:
Many have reported losing their fear of death after having their NDE, or have acquired new and potent fears. No one that I know of has reported on lucid dreams having these particular profound effects on those who have experienced them.
Jesus is

Blacktown, Australia

#109 May 12, 2013
NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES
have occurred when the person is actually dead or brain does not function at all, but in lucid dreaming there is REM and you are sleeping alive!

Jesus is

Blacktown, Australia

#110 May 13, 2013
DEBUNKING THE 'RELIGIOUS EXPECTATION' THEORY:

If it were fulfilling the experiencer's expectations of what dying is like, we would expect that only people who believed in and expected a near-death experience would have one, not suicides who anticipate annihilation, fundamentalists who expect only to see God, or agnostics and atheists who would not believe in an NDE phenomenon at all, that this is definitely not the case.

Research demonstrating that different cultures have produced remarkably similar findings, shows that they're not dependent on expectations in any culture.
Jesus is

Blacktown, Australia

#111 May 13, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
I accept your apology, your concession, and your wise decision to stay away from a topic which you are not mentally equipped nor educated enough to debate.
WHEN DID I APPOLOGISE AND CONCEED?????????
I'm not staying away from this topic! I went to bed!!!!!!!!!
AND VERY SHORTLY I'M GOING OUT TO DINNER!!!!!
Jesus is

Blacktown, Australia

#112 May 13, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
The point is that during a resuscitated cardiac arrest the ability of the brain to get oxygen can be quite variable, and if the CPR is done effectively the brain gets enough oxygen that it is not damaged.
a
THE LACK OF OXYGEN THEORY HAS TO BE THE ONE THAT HAS BEEN DEBUNKED THE MOST!
Jesus is

Blacktown, Australia

#113 May 13, 2013
DEBUNKING THE LACK OF OXYGEN THORY:

Other possible explanations are a lack of oxygen in the brain, or too much carbon dioxide. But these would not explain why some patients are able to give full and cogent reports of things that went on around them during their NDE.
illusions

Las Vegas, NV

#114 May 13, 2013
Nde's and abductions and astral projections are all the same things.

An illusion of the mind, can't leave our bodies, we are our bodies.

We don't have souls, we are souls.

And yes, spirits can induce all three of these things.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#116 May 13, 2013
little lamb wrote:
<quoted text>
A vision doesn't have to be from God you know
Jeremiah 14:14
Then Jehovah said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.
Prove that visions of Jesus aren't false visions. "The Bible says so" isn't proof, it's your opinion.

Show me the cold hard proof.

And while you're at it, explain why only Christians see Jesus. If God is so great why doesn't he appear to non-Christians in NDEs?

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#117 May 13, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
Prove that visions of Jesus aren't false visions. "The Bible says so" isn't proof, it's your opinion.
Show me the cold hard proof.
And while you're at it, explain why only Christians see Jesus. If God is so great why doesn't he appear to non-Christians in NDEs?
Looks like someone woke up in the insecure side of the bed this morning!

lol
Jesus is

Blacktown, Australia

#118 May 13, 2013
'In a new exercise by a California organization that studies lucid dreaming, volunteers have been conditioned to dream near-death experiences,(I WASN'T "CONDITIONED" BEFORE MINE. I DIDN'T GO TO CHURCH, DIDN'T HAVE ANY OPINIONS ABOUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN I DIE, AND DIDN'T EVEN KNOW I WAS NEAR-DEATH.)'including the classic scenario of flying toward a light at the end of a tunnel.(THERE WERE NO TUNNELS IN MINE).' The researchers say their experiment demonstrates that these heavenly visions must be products of the human mind rather than supernatural phenomena.'
SCIENTISTS HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO!!!!!!!

'In the sleep experiment at the Out-Of-Body Experience Research Center in Los Angeles, four groups of 10 to 20 volunteers were trained to perform a series of mental steps upon awakening during the night that might lead them to have out-of-body experiences.' I WASN'T TRAINED.'If able to "separate" from their bodies, they were then conditioned to try dreaming about floating through a tunnel toward a bright light.' I WASN'T CONDITIONED. NOBODY TOLD ME WHAT TO DREAM.' Eighteen of the volunteers said they were able to dream such an experience.'

ONLY 18? IF IT WAS A NORMAL PART OF THE HUMAN BRAIN'S FUNCTIONING WHY DIDN'T THEY ALL EXPERIENCE IT?


Jesus is

Blacktown, Australia

#119 May 13, 2013
THE 'NEW' STUDY YOU THINK ANSWERS ALL N.D.E.s OCCURED OVER 12 MONTHS AGO!!!!!!!

and all it proved was that a similar experience can be conditioned into some people who had been previously brainwashed to experience it.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#120 May 13, 2013
Jesus is wrote:
'In a new exercise by a California organization that studies lucid dreaming, volunteers have been conditioned to dream near-death experiences,(I WASN'T "CONDITIONED" BEFORE MINE. I DIDN'T GO TO CHURCH, DIDN'T HAVE ANY OPINIONS ABOUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN I DIE, AND DIDN'T EVEN KNOW I WAS NEAR-DEATH.)'including the classic scenario of flying toward a light at the end of a tunnel.(THERE WERE NO TUNNELS IN MINE).' The researchers say their experiment demonstrates that these heavenly visions must be products of the human mind rather than supernatural phenomena.'
SCIENTISTS HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO!!!!!!!
'In the sleep experiment at the Out-Of-Body Experience Research Center in Los Angeles, four groups of 10 to 20 volunteers were trained to perform a series of mental steps upon awakening during the night that might lead them to have out-of-body experiences.' I WASN'T TRAINED.'If able to "separate" from their bodies, they were then conditioned to try dreaming about floating through a tunnel toward a bright light.' I WASN'T CONDITIONED. NOBODY TOLD ME WHAT TO DREAM.' Eighteen of the volunteers said they were able to dream such an experience.'
ONLY 18? IF IT WAS A NORMAL PART OF THE HUMAN BRAIN'S FUNCTIONING WHY DIDN'T THEY ALL EXPERIENCE IT?
Not everyone has lucid dreams.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#121 May 13, 2013
Jesus is wrote:
THE 'NEW' STUDY YOU THINK ANSWERS ALL N.D.E.s OCCURED OVER 12 MONTHS AGO!!!!!!!
and all it proved was that a similar experience can be conditioned into some people who had been previously brainwashed to experience it.
It's still a new study, moron.All you're doing is trying to deflect attention from the facts.

You claim to have had an NDE. Right off the bat, why should I believe you?

You claim that you weren't a believer when you had the NDE. Again, why should I believe you?

People have hallucinations all the time. Should we believe that everything those people experienced was objectively real? Or just real to them?

You're comparing a personal anecdote (your unproved and undocumented claim that you had an NDE) with a scientific study that was extensively documented.

And you want everyone to believe YOU are telling the truth, and all those people involved with the study engaged in a conspiracy?

LMAO!

You have no credibility. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#122 May 13, 2013
Huntington Guy wrote:
<quoted text>Looks like someone woke up in the insecure side of the bed this morning!
lol
As usual, all you ever do is insult other posters. You never present any evidence for your opinions.

You're such a Cuntington Guy.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#123 May 13, 2013
Dr. Eben Alexander, the author of "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" has been cited by many Christians as "proof" that the afterlife exists.

Well, Dr. Alexander also believes that reincarnation is real, and that people have had past lives. He believes that he has proof of this.

This is so at odds with Christian theology that I must once again accuse Christians of cherry-picking bits of data that support their belief system and rejecting data that contradicts it.

Just as they do with the Bible.

Hypocrites!

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