Bill in Congress makes it a crime for...

Bill in Congress makes it a crime for churches to speak against homosexuality

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rusty

United States

#1 Jun 15, 2007
http://www.afa.net/hatecrime2.asp
There is dangerous legislation being presented to congress.
If pastors and other Christians don’t aggressively oppose a bill now in Congress, in the near future they will be subject to huge fines and prison terms if they say anything negative about homosexuality.
Click on the above link and sign the petition if you treasure free speech.
Faithful

United States

#2 Jun 15, 2007
Have you actually read this proposed legislation, or did you stop at the Mr. Wildmon's AFA web page?

AFA objects to the designation of "homosexual" and "transgender" as protected classes. I guess that's a valid topic for debate.

But I think Mr. Wildmon goes WAY over the top in stating:
"House bill H.R. 1592 and Senate bill S. 1105 would make negative statements concerning homosexuality, such as calling the practice of homosexuality a sin from the pulpit, a "hate crime" punishable by law. This dangerous legislation would take away your freedom of speech and your freedom of religion."

I read the text of H.R. 1592, and it comes nowhere close to what is claimed by Wildmon.

So I dug a little deeper. I read the introductory speeches from the legislators, and here is an excerpt from Sen. Charles Schumer [D-NY]:
----
"Let us be very clear, we are not criminalizing speech. Violent acts against an African American, a woman, or a Sikh because of who they are do not constitute free expression. Nor are we are criminalizing evil thoughts. We are only criminalizing action--harmful and violent action that cuts against our society and against the very meaning of what it is to be an American. Congress and local law enforcement are not becoming the "thought-police." Rather, we are criminalizing the violent actions of closed-minded and hateful individuals.

"In today's society, we see all too frequently violence based on the person's race, religion, sexual orientation, or other characteristics. We must act to address these injustices. This is not about special rights to any particular group. Actually, it is quite the contrary. This is about equal rights. This is about going after those individuals who act on their harmful beliefs. By committing hate crimes, they are attempting to relegate certain people to second-class citizenship. They think they can do this through violence. But they are wrong, and this legislation is a forceful statement that this country will not tolerate this behavior."
----

So, where is this supposed attack on the pulpit coming from? I'm a Christian, and I really dislike it when people calling themselves Christian resort to underhanded tactics, the like of which are definitely non-Biblical. I don't need that sort of "black eye" for my faith.
rusty

Charlotte, NC

#3 Jun 15, 2007
If you give these people an inch, then they will take a mile. There are already laws on the books to punish people for assault & battery...As well as murder, etc.

It's like the old saying about slicing bologna...They don't cut it all at once...Just a slice at a time...Till it's all gone.

Homosexuals do not need this law, but they would love to have it, as it would give them that much more ammunition to work their vile agenda with.

Once something like this becomes law...It can be amended later on to punish pastors & churches that preach against the sin of homosexuality. And given the current political trend against the Republican Party...The Democrats will probably control the White House as well as Congress next election and they would be much more sympathetic to appeasing homosexuals.

I commend Mr. Wildmon for alerting the faithful about this, as he can see through this legislation like I can.
Faithful

United States

#4 Jun 15, 2007
rusty,

Let's be clear on one thing: I am not necessarily in support of the legislation.

I am asking, where is there anything in the legislation that remotely resembles what Wildmon describes? Where, in this legislation, is the attack on the pulpit? The argument that "it can be amended later" isn't really valid -- ALL legislation is subject to amendment.

Really, please show me, as I would like to know if this is a legitimate concern requiring my attention and participation, or if this is someone using false pretenses to get support.

The latter is NOT a Christian method, regardless of the cause!

By the way, you are exhibiting a really strong "us versus them" mentality that might benefit from some serious Christian introspection.

And lastly, for this posting anyway, be very careful about your use of phrases like "vile agenda", because that is certainly not the sole domain of the homosexual community.

Unless someone can produce concrete support for Mr. Wildmon's claim (quoted above), I will say as a "Romans 1:18-32 believing" Christian that his tactics are nothing short of despicable.
rusty

Charlotte, NC

#5 Jun 15, 2007
Faithful wrote:
rusty,
By the way, you are exhibiting a really strong "us versus them" mentality that might benefit from some serious Christian introspection.

And lastly, for this posting anyway, be very careful about your use of phrases like "vile agenda", because that is certainly not the sole domain of the homosexual community.
That’s what it is...Us vs. them...God vs. Satan.

You are making this out to be more complicated than it should be...Too intellectual.

And you may as well go join the homosexual community if really believe your last statement. Homosexuals are demon possessed to begin with, and they have a lying spirit to boot. Any legislation that they sponsor is going to be anti-God...Anti-Bible...Anti-C hristian.

How you could make such a statement is beyond me. You live in a different world than I do.
Faithful

Palo Alto, CA

#6 Jun 16, 2007
rusty wrote:
<quoted text>
You live in a different world than I do.
This is probably true.
Faithful

Palo Alto, CA

#7 Jun 16, 2007
rusty wrote:
<quoted text>
That’s what it is...Us vs. them...God vs. Satan.
You are making this out to be more complicated than it should be...Too intellectual.
So in effect, you are saying that lying is justifiable, lies told by Christians to Christians? You are saying that lying is not sinful, so long as it is used to attack sinners? And before you respond, bear in mind that the group classified as sinners includes each and every one of us.
rusty

Monroe, NC

#8 Jun 16, 2007
Faithful wrote:
<quoted text>
So in effect, you are saying that lying is justifiable, lies told by Christians to Christians? You are saying that lying is not sinful, so long as it is used to attack sinners? And before you respond, bear in mind that the group classified as sinners includes each and every one of us.
Mr. Wildmon can see through this proposed legislation as well as I can. To call him a lier is unjustified.

If we, as Christians, do not take a stand now...Evil people in power will do their best to censor and punish us for speaking out against the sin of homosexuality.

As I said earlier...Homosexuals do not need this legislation to protect them. We already have laws on the books for that purpose.

This legislation is just a thinly veiled attempt by homosexuals and liberal Democrats in order for them to pass more anti-gay laws down the road.

America's future is at stake here.
Faithful

Palo Alto, CA

#9 Jun 16, 2007
rusty,

Let me lay it out for you as plainly as I can:

Saying anything at all that has no truth in it is lying, and it doesn't matter who is doing it or why. So, if Mr. Wildmon is spreading something that is not true, then he is lying, plain and simple.

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.
(Matthew 15:18-20, NKJV)

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[a] and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[b] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
(Revelation 21:7-8, NKJV)

Note the "all" in "and all liars".

If someone is going to make bold statements in the name of the Lord, don't you find it a bit disconcerting that those words are mingled with lies?

Next, we should return to your attitude! You are clearly confusing the sin with the sinner: who or what is the object of your vendetta?

8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
(1 John 4:8-9, NKJV)

The apostle Paul wrote,
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
(1 Timothy 1:15-16, NKJV)

and again in Romans 5:8, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (NKJV)

And Christ Himself said, "for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Luke 19:10, NKJV)

You are a sinner, just like me and everyone else. And God hates your sins as much as He hates mine. So what is it that puts you into a position to condemn sinners? By what righteousness have you become judge?

No, you cannot deny another the same mercy which you have received by the cross.
rusty

United States

#10 Jun 16, 2007
Faithful wrote:
rusty,
You are a sinner, just like me and everyone else. And God hates your sins as much as He hates mine. So what is it that puts you into a position to condemn sinners? By what righteousness have you become judge?
No, you cannot deny another the same mercy which you have received by the cross.
You're not making any sense at all.

I'm not denying anyone mercy (I don't even have that kind of power to begin with). The foot of the Cross is open to all.

Neither am I a sinner...I was a sinner years ago, but not anymore. Neither do I do the same things that I one time did.

If I am still a sinner after having the Blood applied to my life, then my salvation is in vain.

To say that a person is still a sinner after receiving Christ, is to say that it is impossible to live right.

Again...Mr. Wildmon is not a liar and neither am I.

As for being a judge...I am not a judge, but I am a fruit inspector.
mechanic45

Oneida, TN

#11 Jun 16, 2007
And Jesus also said...Lest ye repent,ye will likewise perish...that goes for liars and homosexuals alike!!!
rusty

United States

#12 Jun 16, 2007
One other thing...

If you are going to quote scripture to me, then quote it from the original Kings James Version only.

I don't accept anything else.
Faithful

United States

#13 Jun 16, 2007
rusty wrote:
<quoted text>
You're not making any sense at all.
...

Again...Mr. Wildmon is not a liar and neither am I.
As for being a judge...I am not a judge, but I am a fruit inspector.
Probably because I was using the wrong version of scripture (tongue firmly planted in cheek there).

All I ask for rusty, is that someone show me what support there is that makes Mr. Wildmon's claims truthful. Since we are talking about legislative acts of Congress, that shouldn't be too difficult to produce, providing of course that it exists.

And of course I will comply with your wishes to use the authorized version, as some call it - you aren't the first to make that request. I try to always provide chapter and verse so that the reader may look it up in the version of their choosing.

I hope that we all realize that we quote from God's word as much for our own edification as for others -- no one should be throwing scripture at another, nor should it be received that way.

God bless you.
rusty

United States

#14 Jun 16, 2007
Faithful wrote:
<quoted text>
All I ask for rusty, is that someone show me what support there is that makes Mr. Wildmon's claims truthful. Since we are talking about legislative acts of Congress, that shouldn't be too difficult to produce, providing of course that it exists.
No, the proposed legislation does not confirm in certain terms that pastors & churches will be punished for preaching against homosexual behavior...But, given the militant attitude of homosexual activists, the proposed legislation could possibly open up a Pandora's box of problems down the road for God's people.

For the sake of argument though, I guess Mr. Wildmon should have worded things a bit differently.

I apologize if my words sounded a bit harsh.

I am not one that talks a lot… Instead, I am rather blunt and straight to the point for the most part.

Thanks for reading my thread.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#15 Jun 16, 2007
rusty wrote:
<quoted text>
No, the proposed legislation does not confirm in certain terms that pastors & churches will be punished for preaching against homosexual behavior...
Now, be honest. If you had read it yourself, I think that you would find that it in fact says NOTHING OF THE SORT, at all. Anywhere.
rusty wrote:
But, given the militant attitude of homosexual activists, the proposed legislation could possibly open up a Pandora's box of problems down the road for God's people.
For the sake of argument though, I guess Mr. Wildmon should have worded things a bit differently.
Yes, he should have stuck to the truth. Oh, but that doesn't put money in the collection plate, no does it?
rusty wrote:
I apologize if my words sounded a bit harsh.
I am not one that talks a lot… Instead, I am rather blunt and straight to the point for the most part.
Thanks for reading my thread.
Hey, blunt and straight to the point can be a good thing, when the facts are lined up right behind you.

The sad thing is that there are some preachers, the more rabidly homophobic that really SHOULD be jailed for their hate provoking sermons. Ah, well... bless the 1st amendment.
Faithful

United States

#16 Jun 17, 2007
Liam R wrote:
Now, be honest. If you had read it yourself, I think that you would find that it in fact says NOTHING OF THE SORT, at all. Anywhere.
The phrase "flogging a dead horse" comes to mind here.
Liam R wrote:
Yes, he should have stuck to the truth. Oh, but that doesn't put money in the collection plate, no does it?
Was that really called for? It was my intent to bring an air of civility to this discussion, because our passions can take us where we do not want to go.
Liam R wrote:
Hey, blunt and straight to the point can be a good thing, when the facts are lined up right behind you.
The sad thing is that there are some preachers, the more rabidly homophobic that really SHOULD be jailed for their hate provoking sermons. Ah, well... bless the 1st amendment.
Exactly. This cuts both was though -- I have received my share of anti-Christian invective as well, so be careful not to go to the extreme in any direction, except where Jesus leads.
mechanic45

Wartburg, TN

#17 Jun 17, 2007
Faithful, you think the bible you quote from doesn't have something to say on this issue,especially where politics is concerned?
Then I invite you to check out the following passages:
1 Kings 12:10-13
Lk 23:1-13
Acts 12
All of these passages reek of politics and the consequences godly believers suffer because of it. As long as there is opportunity to throw some water on the gay flame,I'm going to take advantage of it. I won't bend the knee to the likes of prince Chuck, and if that means lining up with Mr. Wildmon, then so be it.
Faithful

Palo Alto, CA

#18 Jun 17, 2007
mechanic45 wrote:
Faithful, you think the bible you quote from doesn't have something to say on this issue,especially where politics is concerned?
Then I invite you to check out the following passages:
1 Kings 12:10-13
Lk 23:1-13
Acts 12
All of these passages reek of politics and the consequences godly believers suffer because of it. As long as there is opportunity to throw some water on the gay flame,I'm going to take advantage of it. I won't bend the knee to the likes of prince Chuck, and if that means lining up with Mr. Wildmon, then so be it.
Agreed, the Bible has something to say concerning ALL matters of men.

I read the passages to which you refer, and I see the consistent theme of unrighteous rulers disconnected from the will of God and bringing grief as a result.

I do not see the relationship with my basic contention, that godly people should not resort to ungodly methods to accomplish their goals. This "means justify the ends" attitude seems to be what you hint at when you say, "if that means lining up with Mr. Wildmon, then so be it."

Remember Jesus' words, "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12, NKJV)

As I have tried to implicitly convey throughout this thread, I will not argue against Mr. Wildmon so long as someone can show us where God instructs His people to resort to sin as a means of combating sin.

As far as I can tell, lying is a sin no matter what. Is there biblical instruction to the contrary?

Christians are to reflect Christ in their lives, which means in part maintaining a certain level of integrity.

And as far as the battle between Christians and homosexuals goes, we should never, ever, lose the teaching of Jesus that He gave in the parable of the Lost Sheep,

10 "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.
12 "What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."
(Matthew 18:10-14, NKJV)

I am afraid that all too often, well meaning Christians get so caught up in Spiritual Warfare that they become willing to accept what the US Military calls "collateral damage." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_damag... )

We need to refrain from being selective in our application of scripture. While we should never set aside the message of God's wrath in Romans 1:18-32, we should also be unwilling to set aside His love, as in John 3:16. And all must know that our God is a sovereign God -- we must also periodically remind ourselves of that, lest we make assumptions about His will based on our own concerns.

Perhaps it would be good for Christians to consider a tenet of medical school, "Primum non nocere," or "First, do no harm." (Note: this is not in the Hippocratic Oath)
Faithful

Palo Alto, CA

#19 Jun 17, 2007
Faithful wrote:
Christians are to reflect Christ in their lives, which means in part maintaining a certain level of integrity.
This is incorrect. I intended to write, "maintaining an uncompromising level of integrity."

There, that's better.
mechanic45

Helenwood, TN

#20 Jun 17, 2007
Good evening ,Faithful
Several years ago I signed a petition that was meant to keep the atheists from removing religious programming from television. As it turned out there was no such effort even being undertaken by the atheists. What did I lose, a little time?Maybe it was the wrong choice of words on my part about aligning myself with my point is, and I don't think you can deny it, we have to take a stand on who we're going to follow (Acts 5:29). And what about Mr. Wildmon, assuming he is a liar, does not you're own provided passage apply to him as well?
sometimes.

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