An Open Letter to all Believers – Skeptics need answers!

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Job

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#930
Oct 6, 2012
 
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Yeah, the Jesus myth won. Its that simple. I'm sure those others were pissed they didn't get picked out of the crowd and crucified. Infamy in death!
Like musicians...some make it, most don't...and most times it all depends on marketing, or right time-right place, not actual talent.
Yeah! And I bet you my bottom dollar...or 5, 10, 20...whichever is at the bottom (no 50's), that so and so deserves to be at the top because of their superior music skill. And so and so deserves to be playing small dives because of their 'lack' of skill. Or, in some cases the opposite.

Or do you support every musician, simply because they are a musician?

But I guess us Christians should look at every proclaimed messiah equally. Those poor struggling messiah's deserve our support. Forget about 'authenticity'(equivalent to forgetting about musical talent).

*On a side-note...I think the war between who's a superior musician is a far 'heated' one....and far more annoying....
Job

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#931
Oct 6, 2012
 
far more heated..

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

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#932
Oct 6, 2012
 
Punisher wrote:
No, the opposite.
The probability that the God of the Bible exists is way too high to be worth considering...or any other Religious tract so far presented to humanity.
Did you intend to write, "The probability that the God of the Bible does not exist is way too high to be worth considering?"

Here is my application of the atheist view of the beginning pof life on earth. I have a leather belt. Here is how my belt came to be.

Once upon as time there was a cow grazing on a hillside it died and as it rolled down the hill the sharp rocks cut strips of hide from the cow. These strips fell into a hot spring which had lots of tree bark containing tannic acid. The strips of cowhide were tanned and the spring gushed them out. Some rodents chewed on the leather strips making evenly spaced holes. The leather strip continued to move down the hilside at some point it became intertwined in a piece of metal which had previously been formed by volcanic activity. This piece of metal coincidentally had the shape of a belt buckle. That is the evolution of a leather belt.
Job

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#933
Oct 6, 2012
 
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
1. You asked/inferred why?- and I gave you reasons why Humans would manufacture a scheme like this. And all of them hold more weight than yours; given the evidence (specious) we have theres no reason not to believe it.

2. IMO, that's not very logical at all. And its based on your WANT over any sort of reasonable reasoning...

3. We have many thousands of similar stories from the past that all pass your test - because of the so called evidence we have. But because they dont support your strain of beliefs are rejected, due to nothing but the special favor provided Xtianity.
1. That's fine, but the only evidence that I'm aware of is the position that it didn't happen because something like that just 'cannot' happen. And based on that 'position', the various reasons have to be plausible by default. The various 'possible' reasons probably don't even matter.

2. Whether it happened or not makes little difference to me. Actually none. My guess is that most Christians, if they heard about it, would be skeptical. I mainly bring it up because often people demand 'documented' evidence 'outside' of the Bible. The event is not from a Hans Christian Anderson novel.

3. Like what?

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#934
Oct 6, 2012
 
and then God said "I shall make them in my image"

but little did humanity know that God was an ape like creature gradually turning into a humanoid.
Job

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#935
Oct 6, 2012
 
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Who?

2. But its actually irrelevant, because if this scientist had any success he/she would have been known for it. Humans being human and seekers of fame, or at least Professional recognition, I doubt they'd keep any success a secret. Oh, unless of course it was so diabolical they decided to seal it in a box and drop it into the ocean...so not to let it loose on the world...
Yeah we do know its not real. No proof of it being real has ever been provided. None.
Plenty of study was done to make alchemy real and they all failed. No one turned any base material into real gold.

3. So being in a mental institution makes magic/dark arts real? By this logic those in the same institutions claiming to be the new Jesus, or truly talking to God, etc must be telling us the truth, huh? WE should let 'em all out and start listening to them...
1. Wolfgang Pauli for one.

2. Science (itself) doesn't claim to answer questions concerning the supernatural. Your average person knows very little about the occult. The school science class doesn't deal with the occult. In my opinion, it's one of those subjects most want to avoid. There's something about it that pushes most people away because there really 'is' danger involved. But as one doesn't get involved in it, they don't have to think about it. Take the position that it's not worth thinking about.

We are not living in a fable land where monsters and demons are attacking humans like we see in movies and fiction novels. You're not going to be attacked by some horned creature when you walk out your door. The spiritual realm is very real, but many are not even aware of it.

3. The mental hospitals are full of people who the world has forgotten about because there's no answer to the real problem they are dealing with. There's no ultimate medical cure for demonic possession or oppression. We may become more and more technologically advanced, but the mental hospitals will remain filled.

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#936
Oct 6, 2012
 
swerty wrote:
and then God said "I shall make them in my image"
but little did humanity know that God was an ape like creature gradually turning into a humanoid.
When I was a child I always wanted to visit the LaBrea tar pits. When I was in my 50s I finally had the oppportunity. I saw many, many fossils. I did not see one single fossil which was an intermediate "species" between ape and human. That missing link is still missing.

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#937
Oct 6, 2012
 
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
When I was a child I always wanted to visit the LaBrea tar pits. When I was in my 50s I finally had the oppportunity. I saw many, many fossils. I did not see one single fossil which was an intermediate "species" between ape and human. That missing link is still missing.
How Christianity was the catalyst of the Holocaust:

Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book,“On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.
Job

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#938
Oct 6, 2012
 
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Maybe Malachi the annoying one-leg'd traveling preacher and miracle worker rose from the dead too, but didnt have a following to promote his gig like Jesus. No women came to his tomb...only his pet goat and only friend sat there waiting...
All the lost secrets of the past, who knows what we missed out on, huh?
I think you mean 'pretend' to rise from the dead. Just like a bad singer or musician cannot produce a quality voice, musicianship.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

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#939
Oct 6, 2012
 
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah! And I bet you my bottom dollar...or 5, 10, 20...whichever is at the bottom (no 50's), that so and so deserves to be at the top because of their superior music skill. And so and so deserves to be playing small dives because of their 'lack' of skill. Or, in some cases the opposite.

Or do you support every musician, simply because they are a musician?

But I guess us Christians should look at every proclaimed messiah equally. Those poor struggling messiah's deserve our support. Forget about 'authenticity'(equivalent to forgetting about musical talent).

*On a side-note...I think the war between who's a superior musician is a far 'heated' one....and far more annoying....
As a frustrated musician - I seem only able to copy and not create music - I do support them all as long as they are giving it their all and its organic. The wife and I are avid "concert", music show goers, we spend a lot of time and $$$ in small clubs and big halls seeing the struggling to the achieved famous acts. I totally cant stand Yoko Ono's form of music, but it seems to come from her heart...so I cant deny her anything.

I totally disagree (surprise!) with your, the Top is on top because of skill train of thought. I can name a half dozen female artists I have seen in only the last few months who are better across the board than any one plucked from a Reality Talent show in the last decade.

And I think that applies to almost every profession. Its not always What you know and/or your skill/proficiency that gets people to the top, but who you might know, or get to notice you, or suck up to. I'm sure you know those folks...

I know very talented musicians who wont do a reality show because they dont want some dopey judge telling them to change X to win - instead of pursue some innovative "sound" they are "feeling" that is more true to being an artist.

But like you say, these can be annoying arguments. My band is better than your band!:)

By no means do Xtians have to accept any messiah that comes along, that would be silly and negate the basis of your Religion. You had your Messiah moment already if I read the story correctly. All I ever expect..correct that - wish for from Xtians, or any Religious believers is an open-mind to at least listen and not scoff, and to face the reality that they (you) do not OWN the path to personal spiritual fulfillment (if such a thing is even a reality, fulfillment) and that while you may deem the Zig your way, someone else might have to Zag, and zag and zag...and neither is better or worse (except in some extreme cases)

The "wars" that Religions have unleashed that were either true wars, or more social-cultural ones like we see now in the US, all have to do with Dogma. All have to do with people/groups trying to OWN the way people fit faith into their lives. Its never about we're more nice, more charitable, more spiritual at devotion - but about Dogma, and Owning the beliefs.

“God Loves Ilks!”

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#940
Oct 6, 2012
 
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
When I was a child I always wanted to visit the LaBrea tar pits. When I was in my 50s I finally had the oppportunity. I saw many, many fossils. I did not see one single fossil which was an intermediate "species" between ape and human. That missing link is still missing.
You and your little friend forget that 'in His image' does not mean our physical body.

geez

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#941
Oct 6, 2012
 
swerty wrote:
<quoted text>How Christianity was the catalyst of the Holocaust:
Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book,“On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.
Yes, that really responds to my post.

"When I was a child I always wanted to visit the LaBrea tar pits. When I was in my 50s I finally had the oppportunity. I saw many, many fossils. I did not see one single fossil which was an intermediate "species" between ape and human. That missing link is still missing."
Job

Cupertino, CA

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#942
Oct 6, 2012
 
swerty wrote:
<quoted text>How Christianity was the catalyst of the Holocaust:
Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book,“On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.
I don't know any Christians who hate Jews. But if you want to get into past history, secular science/Darwinists do not exactly have a clean record when it comes to racism:

http://www.understandingrace.org/history/scie...
Job

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#943
Oct 6, 2012
 
Nettiebelle wrote:
<quoted text>Actually, it is very easy to get, from your posts, what you are saying.
I don't see any connection to your comment whatsoever. Not remotely.

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#944
Oct 6, 2012
 
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know any Christians who hate Jews. But if you want to get into past history, secular science/Darwinists do not exactly have a clean record when it comes to racism:
http://www.understandingrace.org/history/scie...
The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

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#945
Oct 6, 2012
 
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't see any connection to your comment whatsoever. Not remotely.
That's what I said and it was blown off.
Punisher

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#946
Oct 6, 2012
 
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah! And I bet you my bottom dollar...or 5, 10, 20...whichever is at the bottom (no 50's), that so and so deserves to be at the top because of their superior music skill. And so and so deserves to be playing small dives because of their 'lack' of skill. Or, in some cases the opposite.
Or do you support every musician, simply because they are a musician?
But I guess us Christians should look at every proclaimed messiah equally. Those poor struggling messiah's deserve our support. Forget about 'authenticity'(equivalent to forgetting about musical talent).
*On a side-note...I think the war between who's a superior musician is a far 'heated' one....and far more annoying....
And its this Who you know, who knows you, and who "sees" you that was my only point re; the Jesus Myth winning out over his fellow apocalyptic preachers of the day.(there were many of them from what we can glean from the history)

The Jesus Myth won. That's simply the reality of the facts, but certainly not a proof of my/others opinion that its all a myth, but neither is it proof (the Win) that the stories told are true.

The winning team isn't necessarily the truly Better team, they're just the better team that day, that game. And thats how I see the Win of the Jesus Myth. Like so many cultural moments, one guy, one woman, one group comes out and wins the Recognition award. There were others like Martin Luther King Jr - or on the other extreme a Hitler - they just won by some luck and applicable oratory skill of course, but that didnt make them the BEST, nor did it prove them fully right by the simple act of winning.

Xtianity won out over Paganism...as to why, thats an enormously hard question to truly and adequately answer.(outside of the naive Believer simply saying because my Story is true and those others were not mode of thinking.)

I maintain its a very naive POV for any Xtian to take the "We Won because our story is true!" argument - because it ignores so much reality to make the speaker of such words look very small and ignorant, and willfully so.
Punisher

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#947
Oct 6, 2012
 
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know any Christians who hate Jews. But if you want to get into past history, secular science/Darwinists do not exactly have a clean record when it comes to racism:
http://www.understandingrace.org/history/scie...
This is another specious line of defense. "I don't KNOW any..."

Well you might not, but they're out there, they have always been out there and we have a very easy way to locate them. Look at Historical reality and not the 3 foot of space surrounding you.

The Pogroms that preceded the Holocaust, all Xtian in origin. Nothing else but a deep hatred - taught in the very pulpits of European Xtian Churches - caused those acts which hit a zenith in the Holocaust.

You're correct, social Darwinists were/are racist - but were they racists due to Darwin's theory, or were they already racists who co-opted and misused the science to justify their hatred and continued desires to kill the Jews, the Jesus killers...? Its all about that line of Dogma, Jews killed Jesus, Jews must die, Jews are the incarnation of Satan who prey upon Xtians, so they must die, or be marginalized, vilified...

These Xtian racists now had science on their side, or so they thought - and that's how science is abused. Usually by zealot ideologues who co-opt it for their already twisted POV's.

Xtianity taught the Northern, Eastern, Western Europeans, these mostly Proty Europeans, with the RCC dominating in the south, by the time of WW2 - to hate the Jews. It was NOT Darwin's TOE.

Xtianity is allegedly against everything these European Xtians believed about the Jews - but as history proves that reality has never stood in the way of Xtians making their own set rules as to when to Be like Jesus, and when not to...and still make the Not To be as he would wish people to act. Xtianity is the master of smoke and mirrors when it comes to How we're supposed to act, and How we will and Do act and making them equal when they run counter.
Punisher

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#948
Oct 6, 2012
 
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, that really responds to my post.
"When I was a child I always wanted to visit the LaBrea tar pits. When I was in my 50s I finally had the oppportunity. I saw many, many fossils. I did not see one single fossil which was an intermediate "species" between ape and human. That missing link is still missing."
So in all those years "lying in wait" - did you become a fossil expert, and learn how to recognize such things, should you have seen it?

I cant think of a more stupid claim to make. It would be like I went to visit an old coal mine and didnt see any reasons to support the rampant accusations that coal mining is an industry rife with labor abuse, and one where the dignity of life is woefully lacking, and where the health of the workers and surrounding communities are no more important than the life of a fly.

Plus the la Brea tar pits are so not the place to be looking for your link. Which ONLY shows how little you understand about such matters and why we leave the search of such things to the EXPERTS. They know where to look. I suggest a book, to help you with this understanding... "Your Inner Fish", Neil Shubin. IThe Intro and opening chapters give a good explanation of the principles behind Where to Look vs. not to look, and why.

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

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#949
Oct 6, 2012
 
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
So in all those years "lying in wait" - did you become a fossil expert, and learn how to recognize such things, should you have seen it?
I cant think of a more stupid claim to make. It would be like I went to visit an old coal mine and didnt see any reasons to support the rampant accusations that coal mining is an industry rife with labor abuse, and one where the dignity of life is woefully lacking, and where the health of the workers and surrounding communities are no more important than the life of a fly.
Plus the la Brea tar pits are so not the place to be looking for your link. Which ONLY shows how little you understand about such matters and why we leave the search of such things to the EXPERTS. They know where to look. I suggest a book, to help you with this understanding... "Your Inner Fish", Neil Shubin. IThe Intro and opening chapters give a good explanation of the principles behind Where to Look vs. not to look, and why.
Does not take an expert to read the signs identifying the fossils and the information in the free brochures.

So now you are an expert trying to tell me where to look and not to look including your favorite book from your pet writer.

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