Will Gay Marriage Pit Church Against Church?

Apr 27, 2009 Full story: news.yahoo.com 16,104

The trouble they see is not just an America where general support for gay marriage will have driven a wedge between churches and the world, but between churches themselves.

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Since: May 13

Location hidden

#15798 May 26, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>
How can you know something which is unknowable?
Because it isn't.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#15799 May 26, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
What do YOU think rational means?
You first oh question king.

“No Headline available”

Since: Jan 08

Defiance, Ohio

#15800 May 26, 2013
Stan53 wrote:
Acknowledging what God says is WRONG, is NOT judging but of course you don't like God telling you, but you can't tell Him off because you don't accept or believe Him so you do the next best thing. It is meaningless to me as I know I'm NOT judging you, ONLY God judges.
If I see you go through a red light, I can say you are guilty of breaking the law and that doesn't have ANY impact on you until an ACTUAL judge find you guilty. You can deny all you want what I KNOW but you won't be able to deny God. Ultimately He will confirm His Word and laws.
It is obvious you have NO idea what a hypocrite actually is, until you look in a mirror.
You are judging, you are merely rationalizing away your sin in doing so. As for your proof that God says homosexuality is wrong, its tenuous at best, based upon mistranslations of the original text.

You ARE a hypocrite. You claim to be Christian, but you cherry pick what portions of God's instruction that you will follow. You are almost the definition of a hypocrite.

Regardless, I don't care, because I don't believe your beliefs are correct, and you cannot provide positive proof that they are, just as you cannot answer the simple "what if" question, what if you are wrong?

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#15801 May 26, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
That's a meaningless response. You might as well say that you know hydrogen is one proton and one electron because of the stuff you've observed. Well, that's fine. Without an account of what that consists of, it's just an assertion. Evidence is only evidence when it's able to be shared. If you're going to assert something and expect someone to take it seriously, you have to share that evidence. Otherwise, you're demanding gullibility and wild credulity, and no thinking person ought to do so or exhibit such.
<quoted text>
Again, just like YOU know that bigfoot is real, right? Every time you say I know God exists, it's just as valid as me saying that you know bigfoot exists. It's just you making shit up.
I know only what evidence demonstrates. No evidence of God's existence means I don't know God exists, just like you don't know that Thor exists (outside of your presuppositional apologetics).
<quoted text>
Oh, I have. Notice how even KiMare had to concede that I know what I'm talking about regarding the Bible.
<quoted text>
If she were, though, would the morally superior response be to marry her off to her attacker in exchange for some money or to report the rape to the police and have the attacker prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law? God's way or the secular way? Which is morally superior?
<quoted text>
I thought you said that I already know that, remember?
If there were evidence that God exists (of which there has ever been presented none), and that Jesus (of whom there has ever been presented only flimsy evidence) was the incarnation of said God character, I'd be even more saddened by believers, because they're worshiping a capricious and vengeful being who actually DID accept human sacrifice as payment for a favor, allowed dozens of children to be kidnapped and killed before finally deciding something had to be done about it, commanded multiple genocidal conquests, condoned slavery (and NEVER condemned it), condoned incest, said that rape is rightly punishable by marrying the victim, and assigns infinite punishment for finite transgressions.
No being, mortal or otherwise, is to be worshipped. Notice that every human being who demands worship at gunpoint is considered a tyrant and a monster. But, change finite power to infinite power and then it's somehow cool? No...might does not make right. Right makes right.
But, if you think having the biggest muscles or the biggest dick makes someone right about everything, then Christianity really is right up your alley.
Denial must be your middle name. That's all you do. Your gross lack of understanding WHO God is and WHAT He does in our lives once we commit to Him is very evident. That you are totally full of your own opinions is also very evident.

Since: Aug 11

Santa Cruz, CA

#15802 May 26, 2013
Stan53 wrote:
<quoted text>
Because it isn't.
Can you prove the existence of God using readily verifiable, non-ontological evidence?

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#15803 May 26, 2013
Stan53 wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey boooots.
I am new on Topix...still not sure if I'll stay here. Too many trolls IMHO.
Sorry to hear about your apostasy and I will offer a prayer for your spiritual sight.
I was born again in 1971 and have been a BIBLE believing Spirit filled Christian for over 42 years. I retired a few years ago and have been making a tour of Christian forums.
Yes, I can HONESTLY say I believe 100% in what I post.
I confirm as Paul did in 2 Timothy 1:12; [i][/b]I am not ashamed, for I know in whom I have trusted and I am fully convinced that he is able to guard my deposit until that day.[/b][/i]
Good to know you, Herb. I have no problem with anyone being a believer, or a non-believer, if they are decent people and treat others decently. I go by the Golden Rule, because I think it pretty well covers everything we need to do, to live a good life. Obviously life is more complicated than that, but with that as a guideline, if all followed it we could have a much better world.

My objections, on this site, are to those who claim a certain belief, and the rules of that belief, but conduct themselves here contrary to that, which has been prevalent on Topix. I also have a lot of problems, intellectually, with someone insisting that a proved untruth is true. As far as whether or not a god or God exists, not any person knows, and I certainly cannot prove that there is or are no gods. That is an absolutely impossible task. I have never yet heard of anyone that has proved God exists though.

When someone can show the proof and it is accepted, I will change that opinion willingly.

Since: Aug 11

Santa Cruz, CA

#15804 May 26, 2013
boooots wrote:
<quoted text>
Good to know you, Herb. I have no problem with anyone being a believer, or a non-believer, if they are decent people and treat others decently. I go by the Golden Rule, because I think it pretty well covers everything we need to do, to live a good life. Obviously life is more complicated than that, but with that as a guideline, if all followed it we could have a much better world.
My objections, on this site, are to those who claim a certain belief, and the rules of that belief, but conduct themselves here contrary to that, which has been prevalent on Topix. I also have a lot of problems, intellectually, with someone insisting that a proved untruth is true. As far as whether or not a god or God exists, not any person knows, and I certainly cannot prove that there is or are no gods. That is an absolutely impossible task. I have never yet heard of anyone that has proved God exists though.
When someone can show the proof and it is accepted, I will change that opinion willingly.
I agree. You know, Matthew 7:1 is just another way of stating the Golden Rule.

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#15805 May 26, 2013
Stan53 wrote:
Actually I did sweetie and I commented. You obviously are too busy trolling to read responses. What makes you think I care one iota about a religious tolerance group based out of Ontario? They are probably ALL humanists, and further more their opinion is WRONG.
Furthermore, as you don't live by Biblical principles or by God's principles then trying to use them is not just hypocritical but meaningless as far as I'm concerned.
Ah yes, you did say, "This is NOT proof and id deliberately biased...", it wasn't one of your brighter moments. It's probably why your lame response slipped my mind, it was devoid of substance. You offered nothing which anyone might confuse with proof that anything they said was wrong, inaccurate or false. Oh and hon, taking pathetic potshots at the source shouldn't be confused by you as proof of anything except you being unable to come up with any sort of proof that they were actually wrong. One last point dear, despite your unbridled hubris to the contrary, you are not God and do not speak for him.
Concerned Expat

UK

#15806 May 26, 2013
Stan53 wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't need to prove He exists, I KNOW. You on the other hand DON'T, therefore you demand proof. Sorry but as I said He doesn't need to PROVE Himself to you or anyone. You KNOW He exists but just won't admit it. Your quandary, NOT mine.

Behave yourself you silly Jesus freak.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#15807 May 26, 2013
Stan53 wrote:
<quoted text>
I say it because I KNOW it. You however DON'T know God exists so yes it is invalid to say he does.
Again when you start answering questions of mine I will endeavor to answers yours.
So, now you say I DON'T know God exists, but earlier you said that I DO know God exists. Were you lying then or are you lying now?

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#15808 May 26, 2013
Stan53 wrote:
<quoted text>
Denial must be your middle name. That's all you do. Your gross lack of understanding WHO God is and WHAT He does in our lives once we commit to Him is very evident. That you are totally full of your own opinions is also very evident.
Great. Tell me what part I got wrong. Please, be specific, and please provide evidence to support your claims. I'm more than willing to provide Bible quotes to support my low opinion about your God.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#15809 May 26, 2013
Stan53 wrote:
<quoted text>
You first oh question king.
You haven't answered a single question yet. If you answer a single question of mine, I'll answer any question you might ask.

Your daughter is raped. Which is the morally superior response?

A: Accept payment from the attacker and marry her to the rapist.
B: Report the rape to the police and prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law.

One of these is God's command. The other is the secular solution. Which is morally superior?

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#15810 May 28, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you for the rare bit of honesty from the faithful. I appreciate it. I know it can be embarrassing to have non-believers showing up the believers about their own favorite religious text, but it's only those whose faith is strong that can admit they were wrong and the atheist was right.
Now, which of the two responses is morally superior?
My honesty only confirms my adherence to truth. You have never expressed that character.

You are comparing the legal practice of two societies in two different time periods. For it's time, that law was morally superior to any available alternative. Especially if the rape resulted in pregnancy. However, another factor is that sexual activity is morally limited within marriage. Since the female was no longer a virgin, her opportunity for marriage was severely limited, putting her at great risk. It was the best solution available.

You showed up nothing.

The presence of matter is evidence of God.

Everything we know and do is based on the fact that Nature operates by laws. The fact that people deny those laws exist in morality is evidence of evil.

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#15811 May 28, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Man made Israel, not God.
Lightning exists, therefore Zeus.
The fact that a culture exists as long as Judaism, has survived the consistent, concentrated abuse, and has done so distinguishing itself so profoundly, is clear evidence that the Alien who gave the Laws and predicted the result, represents a god in the true sense of the word.

Since: Dec 09

Chicago, IL

#15812 May 28, 2013
Stan53 wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't need to prove He exists, I KNOW. You on the other hand DON'T, therefore you demand proof. Sorry but as I said He doesn't need to PROVE Himself to you or anyone. You KNOW He exists but just won't admit it. Your quandary, NOT mine.
In the same paragraph, you first claim he does NOT know God exists, and then you claim he DOES know God exists but won't admit it.
Both your claims cannot be true.
So which claim is true, and which is a lie?

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#15813 May 28, 2013
KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>
My honesty only confirms my adherence to truth. You have never expressed that character.
You are comparing the legal practice of two societies in two different time periods.
Wrong. One was the legal practices of today's secular society. The other was, according to the Bible, the legal practices handed down to the Hebrews by God himself. Man came up with one, God came up with the other. Which is morally superior? For that matter, if you can't bring yourself to admit that it's morally repugnant to marry one's daughter to her rapist after accepting a few bucks from the guy, at least you can admit that your God should have been capable of giving them laws that weren't morally repugnant. Your God was capable of telling them to do something other than marrying their daughter to her rapist in exchange for money, or telling them not to own other people as property. You must admit that your God was capable of these things, yes?
KiMare wrote:
For it's time, that law was morally superior to any available alternative. Especially if the rape resulted in pregnancy.
Irrelevant. Was your God capable of issuing MORALLY PERFECT laws? Were people too stupid to obey God's laws if they were perfect, and they could only manage to follow morally reprehensible laws? What, exactly, was the point of giving them laws that, at best, would have only been marginally better than the slightly more savage shit the other societies nearby were doing? God couldn't just tell them to do things they REALLY ought to do, and instead saw fit only to give them laws that were incrementally a bit better than those of their neighbors? REALLY? Your God couldn't hold them to a standard any higher than just a little better than the savages next door?
KiMare wrote:
However, another factor is that sexual activity is morally limited within marriage. Since the female was no longer a virgin, her opportunity for marriage was severely limited, putting her at great risk. It was the best solution available.
Right. So, your God didn't bother telling them, "Hey, guys, you've got to stop acting as though a female's only value is between her legs. Women are people, too. For that matter, so are people of other societies, and you should treat them all like equals." No...instead, your God merely perpetuated the morally deficient misogyny and xenophobia and slavery that were already part of that society. Almost as if it wasn't some morally superior source that was giving the laws, but rather a post hoc rationalization and justification for those horrible prejudices and practices.
KiMare wrote:
You showed up nothing.
Wrong. I showed up your ignorance of your own holy book. And, now you don't have the stones to admit it. You admitted error, but you can't admit that I demonstrated any greater degree of knowledge or understanding of it than you have. Your dick won't shrink just because you admit your ignorance. How can you claim to believe everything in a book that you don't even know the contents of?
KiMare wrote:
The presence of matter is evidence of God.
Wrong. The presence of matter is a fact, and our understanding of the laws of physics explains the presence of matter. If you think it's evidence of the existence of God, you have to first define your God, then explain how the presence of matter serves as evidence of God's existence without employing logical fallacies or making shit up. Good luck with that.
KiMare wrote:
Everything we know and do is based on the fact that Nature operates by laws. The fact that people deny those laws exist in morality is evidence of evil.
Nature doesn't operate by laws. Nature is, and the way nature works is described by man in mathematical and scientific terms by laws, and explained by theories. Conflating scientific laws and legal laws is a logical fallacy called equivocation. Please learn how to form a logical argument. PLEASE.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#15814 May 28, 2013
KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>
The fact that a culture exists as long as Judaism, has survived the consistent, concentrated abuse, and has done so distinguishing itself so profoundly, is clear evidence that the Alien who gave the Laws and predicted the result, represents a god in the true sense of the word.
How long did the Greeks have their pantheon of gods? Until their Gods were supplanted by someone else's deity or deities, would that long run have proven that their gods were true? The Greeks were the founders of civilization. Doesn't that prove that their gods were the real deal? They brought about grand and novel concepts, like democracy, and the body politic, and physics, and advanced mathematics, and philosophy to degrees never before known. How can you deny this as proof that their gods were real?

That's your argument. Stuff happened, therefore God. When you have something substantive to offer, let us know. You're too full of logical fallacies to take seriously. Unfortunately, that doesn't disqualify people from being able to vote.

“What Goes Around, Comes Around”

Since: Mar 07

Kansas City, MO.

#15815 May 28, 2013
Troth for Leogere wrote:
They (the churches) reap everything they sow.
Guess it just didn't work the way they wanted it to..
SPOT ON!

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#15816 May 28, 2013
Stan53 wrote:
<quoted text>
Acknowledging what God says is WRONG, is NOT judging but of course you don't like God telling you, but you can't tell Him off because you don't accept or believe Him so you do the next best thing. It is meaningless to me as I know I'm NOT judging you, ONLY God judges.
If I see you go through a red light, I can say you are guilty of breaking the law and that doesn't have ANY impact on you until an ACTUAL judge find you guilty. You can deny all you want what I KNOW but you won't be able to deny God. Ultimately He will confirm His Word and laws.
It is obvious you have NO idea what a hypocrite actually is, until you look in a mirror.
Stan, I am not sure whether I have seen or posted to you before, and I just caught a few words of that post, but if you are making a statement about God, I hope you are assuming that we are reading that is 'what you believe' about God, rather than you are actually stating 'what God is or does', because no human being even knows if God exists. That is a 100% true statement that can't be refuted, or at least has not yet been in the hundreds of thousands or millions of years of human existence.

“praying for you!”

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#15818 May 28, 2013
Troth for Leogere wrote:
They (the churches) reap everything they sow.
Guess it just didn't work the way they wanted it to..
what on earth do you mean? the church is ever growing.
you can't deter the plan of God simply with the passing of immoral man made laws.
God will have the last word.

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