Groups Want Faith Exemption On Same-Sex Marriage Issue

[LuLu Ford]

nkeithf wrote:

<quoted text>
Chief, I back my statements up with four years of seminary study and a Master's of Divinity degree. That's how serious I am about scripture. That's how much I love scripture. But I love it too much to make an idol of it. I am NOT jabbing at Christians...I am one! You see, I am one of your brothers...one of your gay brothers. I too know the Light...but it's a Light that doesn't condemn me, nor does it condemn you, and I hope that you'll come to understand that as you grow in the faith. Don't bind yourself to the Law...bind yourself to the Good News.

Well said!

Peace be with you brother.

[gemelk]

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
I am guilty of a number of sins, but sodomy is not one of them,

1. Your scholarship on the writing of the Gospels is not born out by what evidence exists. They were not written with direct 1st hand knowledge of Jesus.

2. The sin of Sodom is not "anal sex" or "anal rape" or even gay sex. The sin of Sodom by all Jewish texts and midrashim on the subject was inhospitality and violence. That you persist in believing that "sodomy", the sin of Sodom, is related to homosexuals, further diminishes your scholarship.

3. The Roman Governor was 'Pilate' not "Pilot" and we have no Roman documentation as to his view of the particular personage of Jesus of Nazareth.

Eric

[gemelk]

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
Like I said what is natural is not an individual thing, eating is a natural event, sleeping, breathing are all natural. What is natural for all is natural for you as well.
Perhaps I was not real clear, I was saved about a year ago, I have been in the church for several years before.
I am in a position where few are I attend more than one church, so I get perspectives from several different pastors, Traveling as much as I do, I get to attend many churches around the country.

Uranium and the decay of neutrons, gamma, alpha and beta radiation are "natural".

Fusion, the method by which the Sun, our star, emits light and radiation to fuel life and weather on this planet is "natural".

A black hole is "natural".

There are 92 "natural" occurring elements and no matter how you combine them, plastic, rubber, MDF, Dry Wall, cars, planes & trains, they are are still "natural", because the elements that combine to make them are "natural".

Most mammal species, including all primates and most cetacea, have "natural" occuring homosexuality which makes same-sex sex, "natural".

Homosexuality and homosexual sex, is 100% natural. Trying to state or even suggest otherwise diminishes the person arguing it, to absurdity.

Eric

[gemelk]

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
Not since making Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior.
I hate to tell you things are natural not specific to an individual, I am assuming you are homosexual, and have had relations with someone of the same gender, that my friend is unnatual and sodomy.

You are not a "friend" so please, until you actually know me for a time, don't suggest you are. It is untrue.

I've stated two replies on sodomy and what is and is not "natural" which negate what you said and show your misuse of those words. You know not of what you speak, not to any existant definition.

Eric

[Josh in New Orleans]

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
it seems that only homosexuals feel that way what this time honored tradition did for this society is provide the BEST environment to raise our children. It seems that in the last 40+ years we have been getting away from what best for society and whats best for me. I can see absolutely no qualities in homosexual marriage that benefit society or the country. That's not even counting the fact that homosexual behavior is a sin.

Regardless of what your faith thinks is right, Faith, is not the basis upon which to affirm or deny civil rights. Everything you mention about marriage- the stability, responsibilities, rights, and privileges, such provides fundamentally the best environment for people to be together and raise children. You feel like monogamy is a good thing and should be encouraged in society. And well, we all know there is a good reason for this, and yet, instead of encouraging the same for gay and lesbian couples, you would condemn us to permanent single-hood instead? You encourage marriage for all the right reasons inside your own community but cannot clearly see how much you have taken away from our own? Can you not see the double standard in that? If you think we've been getting away from the focus we needed on family, very well then, but how is it that discriminatory definitions of marriage are doing anything to help my family? You do nothing to help my family. The only thing you do is put our rights into legal limbo. It is unfair, and it needs to stop.

[chief22]

nkeithf wrote:

<quoted text>
And your point would be...? According to the Apostle Paul, if you are guilty of one violation of the law, you are guilty of all of it. That's scripture, Chief. You are considering yourself to somehow be a "better class" of sinner. That doesn't wash. We are each both saint and sinner, and your sins are no worse nor no better than mine, in God's sight.
And by the way, if you're going to take scripture's definition of "sodomy" (though that word occurs nowhere in scripture), then you are saying that "sodomites" are those who are guilty of oppressing the poor and living too high on the hog--check out Ezekiel 16:49: "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." Not one word about same-gender sexual relations. So, if ever you have demonstrated a lack of concern for the poor, then you're a sodomite. Wear the title with shame, dear brother.

then we are all murderers as well then. There are no "better Class" of sinner just different sins.

If you are going to use scripture try Romans first chapter.

[chief22]

gemelk wrote:

<quoted text>
Uranium and the decay of neutrons, gamma, alpha and beta radiation are "natural".
Fusion, the method by which the Sun, our star, emits light and radiation to fuel life and weather on this planet is "natural".
A black hole is "natural".
There are 92 "natural" occurring elements and no matter how you combine them, plastic, rubber, MDF, Dry Wall, cars, planes & trains, they are are still "natural", because the elements that combine to make them are "natural".
Most mammal species, including all primates and most cetacea, have "natural" occuring homosexuality which makes same-sex sex, "natural".
Homosexuality and homosexual sex, is 100% natural. Trying to state or even suggest otherwise diminishes the person arguing it, to absurdity.
Eric

Sorry Friend, no matter how you spin it or try to rationalize it, there is nothing natural about homosexual behavior, just because something happens don't means it is natural, its more of a birth defect than anything else.

[chief22]

Josh in New Orleans wrote:

<quoted text>
Regardless of what your faith thinks is right, Faith, is not the basis upon which to affirm or deny civil rights. Everything you mention about marriage- the stability, responsibilities, rights, and privileges, such provides fundamentally the best environment for people to be together and raise children. You feel like monogamy is a good thing and should be encouraged in society. And well, we all know there is a good reason for this, and yet, instead of encouraging the same for gay and lesbian couples, you would condemn us to permanent single-hood instead? You encourage marriage for all the right reasons inside your own community but cannot clearly see how much you have taken away from our own? Can you not see the double standard in that? If you think we've been getting away from the focus we needed on family, very well then, but how is it that discriminatory definitions of marriage are doing anything to help my family? You do nothing to help my family. The only thing you do is put our rights into legal limbo. It is unfair, and it needs to stop.

you can get off that "civil rights" kick you will NEVER be able to rationalize that one to this Chief.

[ILuvLA]

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
it seems that only homosexuals feel that way what this time honored tradition did for this society is provide the BEST environment to raise our children. It seems that in the last 40+ years we have been getting away from what best for society and whats best for me. I can see absolutely no qualities in homosexual marriage that benefit society or the country. That's not even counting the fact that homosexual behavior is a sin.

Um, I hate to tell you this, but you conservative Christians actually divorce more than non Christians and atheists.

Is that also one of your "time honored traditions" that benefit society and breed the best environment that's conducive to the upbringing of children? LAL!!! You must be joking!!!

Don't you know that it's mostly straight people who are f*cking up our society and leaving it morally bankrupt in one way or another?!!!

And divorce and broken homes are the leading culprit. The numerous children born unwanted and out of wedlock to single parent families by you so-called straights, and the high divorce rates among you has virtually opened Pandor's Box as far as social ills are concerned.

Divorces, remarriages, and single parent families are positively correlated to teen pregnancy, child abuse, domestic violence, poverty, drug and alcohol abuse, mental illness, low I.Q.s, and a long list of other social diseases.

And do want to know the benefits of same sex marriage or same sex relationships in general? Well, one of them is the adoption of some your unwanted children.

[gemelk]

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
Sorry Friend, no matter how you spin it or try to rationalize it, there is nothing natural about homosexual behavior, just because something happens don't means it is natural, its more of a birth defect than anything else.

If anyone is "spinning" things here it is you, the same is true of rationalization.

Homosexuality is 100% natural and through all of human recorded history, through all cultures, through all religions, through all races, in every socio-economic class, homosexuality has existed. Some embraced it. Some hated it. Some demi-deified it. Some accepted it.

Gamma ray bursts are 100% natural and they are normal. They would also destroy all organic life on this planet. Random meteor collisions are natural and normal. They too are catastrophic.

Intolerant religion is not natural. It is a CHOICE. It is a belief system based on things that cannot be proven or substantiated. Intolerant religious faith is at best, illogical and without reason.

Birth defects as you put them, are normal, are natural. They simply occur randomly. That does not make them "bad". Those with them, are not "bad".

You equated homosexuality with birth defects? Are you then suggesting that people with birth defects be denied their basic rights and freedoms under the laws and Constitution? That IS what you have suggested for homosexuals and your words clearly condemn you on that account.

So, you are saying those with birth defects, like homosexuals, should be denied the right to marry.

You sound just like those who promoted eugenics. Your statements duplicate those who belief in racial superiority.

If there is evil in this world, to be sure I believe there is, YOU are it. For you would deny humans their basic humanity, for you do it now.

Eric

[The Golem]

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
Sorry Friend, no matter how you spin it or try to rationalize it, there is nothing natural about homosexual behavior, just because something happens don't means it is natural, its more of a birth defect than anything else.

And this is true because you say so? Were you dropped on your head a lot when you were a baby?

[Josh in New Orleans]

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
you can get off that "civil rights" kick you will NEVER be able to rationalize that one to this Chief.

Go ahead, throw up a wall and refuse to answer my comment. I get it, "La la la... I can't hear you!". How f*****g childish! Can't walk a day in someone else's shoes? Can't see the light it is that is in others if those people happen to be gay? Can't do it without passing judgment first? What is apparent is your lack of interest for treating decent people decently.

[nkeithf]

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
then we are all murderers as well then. There are no "better Class" of sinner just different sins.
If you are going to use scripture try Romans first chapter.

Yes, you're exactly right! There IS no "better class" of sin. All sin is equally offensive to God. You are as big a sinner as any of the rest of us, in God's eyes. Ever looked at a woman lustfully, Chief? Adulterer. Ever thought about not returning change in a store that you weren't due? Thief. Ever gotten so angry that you could throttle someone? Murderer. You can't claim any righteousness of your own as merit on your part. None. So you do need to step down from the self-righteousness that you're displaying toward gay and lesbian folks. Even if you consider what we do and are as sin (which I do not), God says you've got no more claim to be righteous than we do.

[nkeithf]

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
you can get off that "civil rights" kick you will NEVER be able to rationalize that one to this Chief.

A "civil rights kick"??? Chief, you know you can't argue on that basis, so you try to eliminate it as a category. This IS a civil rights question, and in spite of our continued religious discussion surrounding it, the simple fact is that religious beliefs are NOT the basis for making laws in America. The fact is, you're un-American, in spite of your flag on your icon there. You simply don't believe in the American way of life and government. And you just proved it with this comment. America rejects religious tyranny. Fundamental premise of our founding. You're un-American. There.

[chief22]

ILuvLA wrote:

<quoted text>
Um, I hate to tell you this, but you conservative Christians actually divorce more than non Christians and atheists.
Is that also one of your "time honored traditions" that benefit society and breed the best environment that's conducive to the upbringing of children? LAL!!! You must be joking!!!
Don't you know that it's mostly straight people who are f*cking up our society and leaving it morally bankrupt in one way or another?!!!
And divorce and broken homes are the leading culprit. The numerous children born unwanted and out of wedlock to single parent families by you so-called straights, and the high divorce rates among you has virtually opened Pandor's Box as far as social ills are concerned.
Divorces, remarriages, and single parent families are positively correlated to teen pregnancy, child abuse, domestic violence, poverty, drug and alcohol abuse, mental illness, low I.Q.s, and a long list of other social diseases.
And do want to know the benefits of same sex marriage or same sex relationships in general? Well, one of them is the adoption of some your unwanted children.

I am talking about the best environment for kids, you are brining up specific problems with individual families, and raising kids in those kind of families is not benificial for that child. I agree there are problems with families today, but instead of a fundamental overhaul, lets address the problems.

[chief22]

nkeithf wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes, you're exactly right! There IS no "better class" of sin. All sin is equally offensive to God. You are as big a sinner as any of the rest of us, in God's eyes. Ever looked at a woman lustfully, Chief? Adulterer. Ever thought about not returning change in a store that you weren't due? Thief. Ever gotten so angry that you could throttle someone? Murderer. You can't claim any righteousness of your own as merit on your part. None. So you do need to step down from the self-righteousness that you're displaying toward gay and lesbian folks. Even if you consider what we do and are as sin (which I do not), God says you've got no more claim to be righteous than we do.

Actually I have returned change that wasn't due me, I buess its the Boy Scout in me.

[chief22]

gemelk wrote:

<quoted text>
If anyone is "spinning" things here it is you, the same is true of rationalization.
Homosexuality is 100% natural and through all of human recorded history, through all cultures, through all religions, through all races, in every socio-economic class, homosexuality has existed. Some embraced it. Some hated it. Some demi-deified it. Some accepted it.
Gamma ray bursts are 100% natural and they are normal. They would also destroy all organic life on this planet. Random meteor collisions are natural and normal. They too are catastrophic.
Intolerant religion is not natural. It is a CHOICE. It is a belief system based on things that cannot be proven or substantiated. Intolerant religious faith is at best, illogical and without reason.
Birth defects as you put them, are normal, are natural. They simply occur randomly. That does not make them "bad". Those with them, are not "bad".
You equated homosexuality with birth defects? Are you then suggesting that people with birth defects be denied their basic rights and freedoms under the laws and Constitution? That IS what you have suggested for homosexuals and your words clearly condemn you on that account.
So, you are saying those with birth defects, like homosexuals, should be denied the right to marry.
You sound just like those who promoted eugenics. Your statements duplicate those who belief in racial superiority.
If there is evil in this world, to be sure I believe there is, YOU are it. For you would deny humans their basic humanity, for you do it now.
Eric

If I understand you then nothing is unnatual not downs syndrom, war global warming etc.

[chief22]

nkeithf wrote:

<quoted text>
A "civil rights kick"??? Chief, you know you can't argue on that basis, so you try to eliminate it as a category. This IS a civil rights question, and in spite of our continued religious discussion surrounding it, the simple fact is that religious beliefs are NOT the basis for making laws in America. The fact is, you're un-American, in spite of your flag on your icon there. You simply don't believe in the American way of life and government. And you just proved it with this comment. America rejects religious tyranny. Fundamental premise of our founding. You're un-American. There.

Yes KICK, marriage is not now, nor has ever been a right anywhere, and no court in this country has the authority to say it is.

[Flair]

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
Actually I have returned change that wasn't due me, I buess its the Boy Scout in me.

Really, you've got a little Boy Scout in you? Pervert.

[Raymond]

chief22 wrote:

<quoted text>
Not since making Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior.
I hate to tell you things are natural not specific to an individual, I am assuming you are homosexual, and have had relations with someone of the same gender, that my friend is unnatual and sodomy.

Not a BJ in over a year -- I guess that's why you are so angry and spend all of your time chatting with homosexuals. So I guess you will be working to have all marriages in which oral sex has been performed annulled right -- I mean if you were being honest.