Female priests risk excommunication t...

Female priests risk excommunication to do what they believe is right

There are 61 comments on the St. Cloud Times story from Jun 16, 2013, titled Female priests risk excommunication to do what they believe is right. In it, St. Cloud Times reports that:

They risk being excommunicated by the Catholic Church but vow they won't be stopped.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at St. Cloud Times.

Dan

Omaha, NE

#41 Jun 19, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
No apology necessary.
OK. And First of all, I am not trying to specifically single out the Roman Church for its systemic, doctrinal and dogmatic errors. But, errors and problems in comprehension and understanding and practice the RCC certainly does have, in plenty, just like every other Christian denomination. This certainly includes the Episcopalians and specifically me, personally, and maybe even you, too.
Let's look at the famous scriptural quote by Jesus.
Above, you say, "We tend to take Christ's direct teachings in Scripture at face value, as presented,..."
OK. Then let's do this together.
In the context of the conversation, as Christ is teaching his listeners, including his personal disciples, Christ is responding to a question from some Pharisees. The text SAYS that they had come to test him.
They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife."
He answered, "... But from the beginning of creation,
'God made them male and female.'
'For this reason...', et cetera.
His answer is a scriptural recitation of the recognition of the bond that develops between two people, which bond he cites and asks us to acknowledge as being fundamental, spiritual, of integrity and a moral asset to human society. It is, after all, like Kimare points out, the primary family unit upon which society and culture, worldwide, has been built. It is the iconic human unit understood to be the "image of God."
Divorce, he answers, is an accommodation to our personal inflexibility. But, it creates adultery. Is it unforgivable?
Reiterating what you said above, "We tend to take Christ's direct teachings in Scripture at face value, as presented,..."
THAT is precisely what people DO NOT DO when they try to take the scriptural passage above and use it for cannon fodder against the idea that a same-sex couple should be recognized in a sacramental ritual of Marriage in the presence of the Holy Spirit.
Christ is never reported to have said anything of the sort.
Likewise, many Christians try to debase any notion of women in the priesthood. The fact is that women are fully capable as priests, in every sacerdotal capacity.
Orthodoxy and Tradition stand in the way of allowing this. But, Orthodoxy and Tradition have roots that served a purpose at one time that may not adequately serve the same needs and purposes later. So, we change and by necessity, commit the dictionary definition of "heresy."
Are there any of us, who are actually intelligent, who would not buy a house via a female Realtor, or submit to the scalpel held in the hand of a female doctor, or purchase groceries at a store with a female owner-manager?
One might say that is a silly question. But, it would not have been silly 100 years ago. In many parts of the world, it is not a silly question, today; even being a sacrilegious question that can lead to extreme punishments.
What has changed? Reality or our perception of reality?
Has thermodynamic law changed or our understanding of thermodynamic law?
Is thermodynamic law truth or is religious dogma truth.
"I am the way, the truth and the life."
How are truth and life anything different from TRUTH and LIFE?
They are One.
RE: the female priesthood matter-

Again, I (personally) have to assume that Christ, being Divine, could operate bereft of the constraints of social mores, etc. respective to selection of the Apostles, so I can't really apply a "correction" to His actions on that basis.

I'd be operating on the basis that His action was random, made with an overriding influence of social custom, or at worst, wrong somehow to the point where I had to remediate it. Either of the three renders Christ less than Divine (IMO).

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#42 Jun 19, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
RE: the female priesthood matter-
Again, I (personally) have to assume that Christ, being Divine, could operate bereft of the constraints of social mores, etc. respective to selection of the Apostles, so I can't really apply a "correction" to His actions on that basis.
I'd be operating on the basis that His action was random, made with an overriding influence of social custom, or at worst, wrong somehow to the point where I had to remediate it. Either of the three renders Christ less than Divine (IMO).
Why?

Put it this way:

Would his ministry be any different today than it was 2000 years ago.

I believe it would be. Context, customs, politics, financial conditions, general systems of belief and practice; all were different then. Discoveries and new knowledge are present and constantly unfolding.

However, much the same objectives would be and are present to be addressed.

We don't apply a "correction." We recognize growth and new expression in the "Tree of Life." We see new understanding and make accommodations. We modify Traditions to improve our ministry and bring the Gospel of Christ to new reaches.

Rev. Ken
Dan

Omaha, NE

#43 Jun 19, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Why?
Put it this way:
Would his ministry be any different today than it was 2000 years ago.
I believe it would be. Context, customs, politics, financial conditions, general systems of belief and practice; all were different then. Discoveries and new knowledge are present and constantly unfolding.
However, much the same objectives would be and are present to be addressed.
We don't apply a "correction." We recognize growth and new expression in the "Tree of Life." We see new understanding and make accommodations. We modify Traditions to improve our ministry and bring the Gospel of Christ to new reaches.
Rev. Ken
All the things you mention (context, customs, politics, et. al) are peripheral. They were to Christ in His time on Earth.

His truth is regarded by Christians as eternal, yes?

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#44 Jun 19, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
All the things you mention (context, customs, politics, et. al) are peripheral. They were to Christ in His time on Earth.
His truth is regarded by Christians as eternal, yes?
Certainly.

But, to deny the value and reality of context is to deny the actual transpiring of his ministry.

Was he or wasn't he crucified under Pontius Pilate?

He was.

Did the people of that time understand that leprosy was a bacterial infection? An effective cure first appeared in the 1940's. In the past 20 years, 15 million people worldwide have been cured of the disease and countless more have not been infected due to sanitary practices that were not understood by many 2000 years ago.

Would you take away the miracles that he performed because, today, you know that a cure is available?
Dan

Omaha, NE

#45 Jun 19, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Certainly.
But, to deny the value and reality of context is to deny the actual transpiring of his ministry.
Was he or wasn't he crucified under Pontius Pilate?
He was.
Did the people of that time understand that leprosy was a bacterial infection? An effective cure first appeared in the 1940's. In the past 20 years, 15 million people worldwide have been cured of the disease and countless more have not been infected due to sanitary practices that were not understood by many 2000 years ago.
Would you take away the miracles that he performed because, today, you know that a cure is available?
Well, there do seem to be a spate of maladies yet to find a cure that He could work a miracle upon.

No offense, but that's kind of thin, Ken.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#46 Jun 19, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Certainly.
But, to deny the value and reality of context is to deny the actual transpiring of his ministry.
Was he or wasn't he crucified under Pontius Pilate?
He was.
Did the people of that time understand that leprosy was a bacterial infection? An effective cure first appeared in the 1940's. In the past 20 years, 15 million people worldwide have been cured of the disease and countless more have not been infected due to sanitary practices that were not understood by many 2000 years ago.
Would you take away the miracles that he performed because, today, you know that a cure is available?
IMO, focusing on the context so intently that one feels compelled to alter the message itself seems a denial of the ministry.

This sounds like where we'll part ways on this.

Appreciate the back and forth.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#47 Jun 20, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
IMO, focusing on the context so intently that one feels compelled to alter the message itself seems a denial of the ministry.
This sounds like where we'll part ways on this.
Appreciate the back and forth.
"... that one feels compelled to alter the message itself ..."

Context is an integral part of the divinity of the message. Context existed then. Context exists now.

That is where you choose to remain in a denial. In every response, you have withheld your agreement, just as above.

But, you are welcome to the back and forth. Anytime.

Since: Mar 10

Location hidden

#48 Jun 20, 2013
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet, despite that these women CAN be ordained in TEC -- a church which openly welcomes anyone and anything -- they won't become Episcopal.
They can join the TEC because the Catholic Church does not accept women's ordination.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#49 Jun 21, 2013
Selene100 wrote:
<quoted text>
They can join the TEC because the Catholic Church does not accept women's ordination.
That would not be their motivation or a solution to the problem they are working to solve.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#50 Jun 21, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
That would not be their motivation or a solution to the problem they are working to solve.
The "problem" they need to "solve" is their misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine.

Their "solution" is incongruent with Catholic doctrine, so they may need to examine whether or not the Church is where they need to be.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#51 Jun 21, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
The "problem" they need to "solve" is their misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine.
Their "solution" is incongruent with Catholic doctrine, so they may need to examine whether or not the Church is where they need to be.
On the contrary!

They understand perfectly well. They are exactly where they are supposed to be, doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing.

You remind me of Martha.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#52 Jun 21, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
On the contrary!
They understand perfectly well. They are exactly where they are supposed to be, doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing.
You remind me of Martha.
......to no real effect, but they can play "priest" if they want.

It's fun to have a "cause", and your name gets in the paper.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#53 Jun 21, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
......to no real effect, but they can play "priest" if they want.
It's fun to have a "cause", and your name gets in the paper.
A condescending dismissal of their calling.

No, they are doing fine right where they are, serving their calling in discipleship to Christ Jesus and working diligently to effectively spread His Gospel. That is exactly what Mary, Martha's sister, was encouraged by the Master to do.

Let them do as they are being guided to do in the Holy Spirit.
Amen.

We do not expect them to apply for admission into The Episcopal Church, where, of course, they would certainly be welcomed.

Our women priests aren't looking for when their "name gets in the paper." Though, if that blows their skirts up, it is certainly something that they can achieve, easily enough.

No. They cannot "play" priest. Either you IS or you AIN'T. The Holy Spirit intelligently and dutifully responds to the commitment.

You are a real trip, Mr. Dan. And you very apparently have a shallow understanding of what the Holy Spirit does and can do.

Rev. Ken
Dan

Omaha, NE

#54 Jun 21, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
A condescending dismissal of their calling.
No, they are doing fine right where they are, serving their calling in discipleship to Christ Jesus and working diligently to effectively spread His Gospel. That is exactly what Mary, Martha's sister, was encouraged by the Master to do.
Let them do as they are being guided to do in the Holy Spirit.
Amen.
We do not expect them to apply for admission into The Episcopal Church, where, of course, they would certainly be welcomed.
Our women priests aren't looking for when their "name gets in the paper." Though, if that blows their skirts up, it is certainly something that they can achieve, easily enough.
No. They cannot "play" priest. Either you IS or you AIN'T. The Holy Spirit intelligently and dutifully responds to the commitment.
You are a real trip, Mr. Dan. And you very apparently have a shallow understanding of what the Holy Spirit does and can do.
Rev. Ken
They 'ain't'.

The Sykora woman's "calling" appears clear enough.

"Bernie really believes in the cause of equality for women; she’s very strong in that way.” said Mary Frances Smith, who was ordained a Roman Catholic Womanpriest in 2009.""

“It’s my hope that one day women will be given rights in the Catholic Church equal to those of the male population,” Sykora said."

She thinks that her faith is a gender-equity exercise. Whoopee. She's wrong.

No fool like an old fool, I suppose.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#55 Jun 21, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
They 'ain't'.
The Sykora woman's "calling" appears clear enough.
"Bernie really believes in the cause of equality for women; she’s very strong in that way.” said Mary Frances Smith, who was ordained a Roman Catholic Womanpriest in 2009.""
“It’s my hope that one day women will be given rights in the Catholic Church equal to those of the male population,” Sykora said."
She thinks that her faith is a gender-equity exercise. Whoopee. She's wrong.
No fool like an old fool, I suppose.
As you say.

The day will come when women, and homosexuals, men and women and transsexuals, are invited to become fully functional ordained priests, able to get married, in the Roman Catholic Church.

Rev. Ken
Dan

Omaha, NE

#56 Jun 21, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
As you say.
The day will come when women, and homosexuals, men and women and transsexuals, are invited to become fully functional ordained priests, able to get married, in the Roman Catholic Church.
Rev. Ken
We should both find a productive way to pass the time until that day.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#57 Jun 21, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
We should both find a productive way to pass the time until that day.
Speak for yourself, Captain.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#58 Jun 24, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
They 'ain't'.
The Sykora woman's "calling" appears clear enough.
"Bernie really believes in the cause of equality for women; she’s very strong in that way.” said Mary Frances Smith, who was ordained a Roman Catholic Womanpriest in 2009.""
“It’s my hope that one day women will be given rights in the Catholic Church equal to those of the male population,” Sykora said."
She thinks that her faith is a gender-equity exercise. Whoopee. She's wrong.
No fool like an old fool, I suppose.
They are if the bishop has ordained them.

Besides, you don't have any say in the matter, anyway.

If you read up regarding women's suffrage in the USA around the 2nd decade of the 20th Century, you will find quotes by men who beleive very similarly to you - which quotes sound very much like yours above:

"... a gender-equity exercise ... She's wrong ... fool ..."
Et cetera.

Yes. It will happen. It is unavoidable. It is meant to be.

Rev. Ken
Dan

Omaha, NE

#59 Jun 25, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
They are if the bishop has ordained them.
Besides, you don't have any say in the matter, anyway.
If you read up regarding women's suffrage in the USA around the 2nd decade of the 20th Century, you will find quotes by men who beleive very similarly to you - which quotes sound very much like yours above:
"... a gender-equity exercise ... She's wrong ... fool ..."
Et cetera.
Yes. It will happen. It is unavoidable. It is meant to be.
Rev. Ken
They aren't validly ordained in the Catholic Church. Thus, they're 'playing priest'.

Thanks

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#60 Jun 25, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
They aren't validly ordained in the Catholic Church. Thus, they're 'playing priest'.
Thanks
That might be how you see things, Dan, as you carefully follow within the bounds of Roman Catholic doctrine.

The calling to ministry and priesthood, on the other hand, comes from within the Spirit. It comes to the person called or chosen wherever they find themselves. For Peter, he was fishing. For Matthew, it was while sitting in a tax booth when Jesus walked by and said, "Follow me." For Mary, the sister of Martha, it was when Jesus came to their home and, over Martha's protests, confirmed Mary's proper acceptance. For Saul, it came as he travelled on the road to Damascus.

Jesus was - is - a priest. We ordain to the priesthood, today, because He ordained to the priesthood then, as had the lines of the Orders and Mystery Schools long past had done and still continue to do.

But, the calling or the choosing comes to the individual in the Spirit. The gift of that connection is not exclusive by nature. It is inclusive; an invitation and a confirmation. It is not reserved only for those of some peculiar line of doctrinal studies or "denomination."

It comes through the Spirit and addresses the individual wherever they may find themselves at the time. For that individual, such a calling imparts a significant drive and charges them to begin a journey from that place of beginning.

I do not doubt that these women are called or chosen to serve as priests. If their calling is to begin to work from within the RCC, I cannot second guess simply on the basis of a temporal tradition.

Validity comes from the Spirit.

Rev. Ken

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Roman Catholic Church Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Roman Catholic church only true church, says Va... (Jul '07) 41 min truth 665,278
News Kaine says Catholic Church might change on gay ... 1 hr Licks8751 75
Bill Maher says that Jesus NEVER existed!... 4 hr Mike from Toronto 1
News Who Is Allah? (Aug '07) 9 hr yehoshooah adam 255,957
WHITE STUFF comes out when I RUB MY WEENIE, WHY??? Sun Philbert 1
News Hillcrest buys St. Mark's School Sun Cops are degenerates 9
News Pope Francis's Visit to Turkey Embroiled in Par... (Dec '14) Dec 3 Azat 2
More from around the web