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Bluebird

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#1
Apr 16, 2007
 
Those who subscribe to Nostra Aetate have proven to be apostates all; the very ones, who Our Lord said in Luke 16: 9, must make of themselves friends of mammon and who will meet the very same fate for they have turned their back on Christ and the Church He established in perpetuity; for He fulfilled the Old Covenant and replaced it with the New and Eternal Testament: The Mystery of Faith. For a Jewish person to be saved, he must be baptized and believe in Christ as the Son of God. In Mark 16: 15-16 Jesus said it, Catholics must believe it.

Since: Dec 06

I love my hometown :)

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#2
Apr 16, 2007
 
Bluebird wrote:
Those who subscribe to Nostra Aetate have proven to be apostates all; the very ones, who Our Lord said in Luke 16: 9, must make of themselves friends of mammon and who will meet the very same fate for they have turned their back on Christ and the Church He established in perpetuity; for He fulfilled the Old Covenant and replaced it with the New and Eternal Testament: The Mystery of Faith. For a Jewish person to be saved, he must be baptized and believe in Christ as the Son of God. In Mark 16: 15-16 Jesus said it, Catholics must believe it.
Bluebird, you're right...Catholics must believe it. But there are millions of non-Catholics who don't have to believe it. Priests don't even teach that any more. It is not my intent to argue with you, just stating a different belief. Good luck to you.
In-His-Service

Hershey, PA

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#3
Apr 16, 2007
 
Sheryl wrote:
<quoted text>
Bluebird, you're right...Catholics must believe it. But there are millions of non-Catholics who don't have to believe it. Priests don't even teach that any more. It is not my intent to argue with you, just stating a different belief. Good luck to you.
Sheryl. Don't teach that anymore? How do you feel about the priests' or popes' ability to simply change teachings and doctrine with time?!? How is that any different from the Jehovah's Witnesses that change their Watchtower whenever they are scripturally challenged and backed into a corner?

How does one go about justifying the constant interpretation and re-interpretation of God's word without ever acknowledging previous mistakes and, all the while, constantly claiming that the Pope (as were his predecessors)is infallible in matters of doctrine (when speaking from "the chair")?

Please do not take this question as an argument or disrespect; but I'm attempting to understand how the dedicated Catholic mind works; and why so many Catholics do not challenge or inquire about non-scriptural doctrine that changes with time.

Since: Dec 06

I love my hometown :)

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#4
Apr 17, 2007
 
In-His-Service wrote:
<quoted text>
Sheryl. Don't teach that anymore? How do you feel about the priests' or popes' ability to simply change teachings and doctrine with time?!? How is that any different from the Jehovah's Witnesses that change their Watchtower whenever they are scripturally challenged and backed into a corner?
How does one go about justifying the constant interpretation and re-interpretation of God's word without ever acknowledging previous mistakes and, all the while, constantly claiming that the Pope (as were his predecessors)is infallible in matters of doctrine (when speaking from "the chair")?
Please do not take this question as an argument or disrespect; but I'm attempting to understand how the dedicated Catholic mind works; and why so many Catholics do not challenge or inquire about non-scriptural doctrine that changes with time.
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking, sorry. My experience has been that the RC church seems to change things to make them "fit" at times. I'm a former Catholic, but had to leave that religion for many reasons, and I feel I'm closer to God for doing so. However, I feel that wherever a person feels closest to God, that's the religion he/she belongs in. Good luck to you :)
In-HIS-Service

Hershey, PA

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#5
Apr 17, 2007
 
Sheryl wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking, sorry. My experience has been that the RC church seems to change things to make them "fit" at times. I'm a former Catholic, but had to leave that religion for many reasons, and I feel I'm closer to God for doing so. However, I feel that wherever a person feels closest to God, that's the religion he/she belongs in. Good luck to you :)
My apologies then. I misjudged from what perspective you were speaking from.
Dan

Omaha, NE

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#6
Apr 17, 2007
 
In-His-Service wrote:
<quoted text>
Sheryl. Don't teach that anymore? How do you feel about the priests' or popes' ability to simply change teachings and doctrine with time?!? How is that any different from the Jehovah's Witnesses that change their Watchtower whenever they are scripturally challenged and backed into a corner?
How does one go about justifying the constant interpretation and re-interpretation of God's word without ever acknowledging previous mistakes and, all the while, constantly claiming that the Pope (as were his predecessors)is infallible in matters of doctrine (when speaking from "the chair")?
Please do not take this question as an argument or disrespect; but I'm attempting to understand how the dedicated Catholic mind works; and why so many Catholics do not challenge or inquire about non-scriptural doctrine that changes with time.
Catholics are not specifically instructed to pray for the conversion of the Jews anymore. That does not mean that the RCC has torn that page out of the Bible.

Respect to doctrine (matters of faith and morals (where the Pope speaks ex cathedra), those do not change; matters of practice or ritual can change and do change, like Mass in the vernacular or kids under 14 not having to abstain from meat on Fridays.

Do you have a specific thing in mind for an example?
Dan

Omaha, NE

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#7
Apr 17, 2007
 
In-His-Service wrote:
<quoted text>
Sheryl. Don't teach that anymore? How do you feel about the priests' or popes' ability to simply change teachings and doctrine with time?!? How is that any different from the Jehovah's Witnesses that change their Watchtower whenever they are scripturally challenged and backed into a corner?
How does one go about justifying the constant interpretation and re-interpretation of God's word without ever acknowledging previous mistakes and, all the while, constantly claiming that the Pope (as were his predecessors)is infallible in matters of doctrine (when speaking from "the chair")?
Please do not take this question as an argument or disrespect; but I'm attempting to understand how the dedicated Catholic mind works; and why so many Catholics do not challenge or inquire about non-scriptural doctrine that changes with time.
As an a side (and not being snotty), Sola Scriptura can hardly be said as having provided a uniform interpretation of the Bible either.
Dan

Omaha, NE

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#8
Apr 17, 2007
 
In-HIS-Service wrote:
<quoted text>
My apologies then. I misjudged from what perspective you were speaking from.
IHS-you are missing the point;

The Pope speaks ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals (and not very often). It is a mtter of practice or ritual respective to whether Mass is in Latin or not, whether kids under 14 have to eat fish on Fridays during Lent, etc.

The Pope didn't tear the page of the bible out; priests simply do not actively instruct to pray for the conversion of the Jewish people.

Is there an example you have in mind respective to Catholic doctrine that has changed?

As an aside (and a respectful aside-honest), Sola Scriptura has hardly provided a uniform interpretation of the Bible.
Dan

Omaha, NE

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#9
Apr 17, 2007
 
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
As an a side (and not being snotty), Sola Scriptura can hardly be said as having provided a uniform interpretation of the Bible either.
Apologies for double-posting same thoughts.
In-HIS-Service

Hershey, PA

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#10
Apr 18, 2007
 
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Catholics are not specifically instructed to pray for the conversion of the Jews anymore. That does not mean that the RCC has torn that page out of the Bible.
Respect to doctrine (matters of faith and morals (where the Pope speaks ex cathedra), those do not change; matters of practice or ritual can change and do change, like Mass in the vernacular or kids under 14 not having to abstain from meat on Fridays.
Do you have a specific thing in mind for an example?
Well, now that you ask. How do you feel about a Pope changing the means of salvation? Catholics say that they do not worship Mary; but are they sure about what their leadership teaches? These declarations are from the Vatican Council II, which reinforced the declarations of Trent. I feel for many God fearing and Christ loving Catholics because it is their belief in a "succession of infallible" Pope's that has led to the doctrinal changes you see below. The Bible absolutely teaches in no way, shape or form that Mary is part of the salvation process. She was a vessel of God (and God bless her for submitting herself to be so, a wife, and a mother of the earthborn Christ and His brothers and Sisters. The Bible tells us all of this; but where did the rest of this come from? Has anyone even thought about this question before worshipping as they do? Please read. These are the words from Catholic Officials. No one else's. If you don't believe it than look it up. If you do know these words are from this council, then please explain how/why Mary was given this status? Trent took place in the mid-1500s and Vatican II took place in 1965. In other words centuries later, a bunch of men calling themselves "Popes" (Holy Fathers) and believing themselves infallible, changed the incorruptible word of God. I seek answers from the Catholic perspective, so please do not consider me overly disrespectful, so much as genuinely curious.

"We believe that the Blessed Mary, who ever enjoys the dignity of virginity, was the Mother of the Incarnate Word, of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ, and that in view of her Son's merits she was redeemed in a more exalted manner and preserved from all stain of sin, outstripping in excellence all other creatures by reason of the grace given her." (Vol. 2, pp. 390 and 391)

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin preserved free from all stain of original sin, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, when her earthly life was over, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things ...." (Vol. 1, pp. 417 and 418)

"She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ, she presented him to the Father in the temple, shared her son's sufferings as he died on the cross. Thus, in a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior in restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace." (Vol. 1, p. 418)

"Taken up to heaven she [Mary] did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us gifts of eternal salvation." (Vol. 1, p. 419)

"Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father." (Vol. 1, pp. 420 and 421)

"From the earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, whose protection the faithful take refuge together in prayer in all their perils and needs." (Vol. 1, p. 421)

"We believe that the multitude of those souls gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Heavenly Church." (Vol. 2, pp. 394 and 395)
In His Service
In-HIS-Service

Hershey, PA

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#11
Apr 18, 2007
 
Sorry for the run-on paragraphs. For some reason, the posting section is not acknowledging my spacing.
In-HIS-Service

Hershey, PA

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#12
Apr 20, 2007
 
In-HIS-Service wrote:
<quoted text>
The Bible absolutely teaches in no way, shape or form that Mary is part of the salvation process. She was a vessel of God (and God bless her for submitting herself to be so, a wife, and a mother of the earthborn Christ and His brothers and Sisters. The Bible tells us all of this; but where did the rest of this come from? Has anyone even thought about this question before worshipping as they do? Please read. These are the words from Catholic Officials. No one else's. If you don't believe it than look it up. If you do know these words are from this council, then please explain how/why Mary was given this status?

"We believe that the Blessed Mary, who ever enjoys the dignity of virginity, was the Mother of the Incarnate Word, of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ, and that in view of her Son's merits she was redeemed in a more exalted manner and preserved from all stain of sin, outstripping in excellence all other creatures by reason of the grace given her." (Vol. 2, pp. 390 and 391)
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin preserved free from all stain of original sin, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, when her earthly life was over, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things ...." (Vol. 1, pp. 417 and 418)
"She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ, she presented him to the Father in the temple, shared her son's sufferings as he died on the cross. Thus, in a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior in restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace." (Vol. 1, p. 418)
"Taken up to heaven she [Mary] did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us gifts of eternal salvation." (Vol. 1, p. 419)
"Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father." (Vol. 1, pp. 420 and 421)
"From the earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, whose protection the faithful take refuge together in prayer in all their perils and needs." (Vol. 1, p. 421)
"We believe that the multitude of those souls gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Heavenly Church." (Vol. 2, pp. 394 and 395)
In His Service
I see there have been no responses yet. I hope that means that people are actually reviewing why they believe what they believe (but that is only wishful thinking).
I just wanted to make sure, that before you respond, to please pay close attention to the paragraph that states, "...and when she is the subject of preaching and worship." Now, I know it that no Catholic wants to admit that they worship Mary; but there is their leadership saying differently. I know that no Catholics want to admit that they view Mary as being given equal devotion and proper respect as they give Christ, but your own Catechism calls her a Mediatrix, and many in your leadership are pushing (if it hasn't succeeded yet) to grant her one more (of many) title(s); which is that of co-redemptrix.
I am just looking for one honest Catholic to admit that either the faith does worship Mary, or that they did not know how much devotion the faith's leadership was truly given to her. If no one can admit this to be so, then please tell me where the true church and body of Christ, which is the church of the Bible, would teach a doctrine or precept that involves giving God's devotion to another.
I ask for these answers in honest sincerity and humility. I hope someone can respond appropriately.
Bluebird

United States

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#13
Apr 20, 2007
 
Catholics do not worship Mary. However she is God's greatest CREATION.

In the bible; Hail full of grace, blessed art thow among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

I would say that she is indeed very special.

That was spoken by an angel.
In-HIS-Service

Hershey, PA

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#14
Apr 20, 2007
 
Bluebird wrote:
Catholics do not worship Mary. However she is God's greatest CREATION.
In the bible; Hail full of grace, blessed art thow among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
I would say that she is indeed very special.
That was spoken by an angel.
I'm not sure about the added "full of grace" part. That might come from a Catholic Bible, but it is not in the KJV or MKJV. But, yes, I would agree that she was indeed special. Mary was a saint whom submitted herself to the will of God. That is much to be commended, and respected; and an example to all whom would faithfully serve the Lord.

But being blessed or highly favored does not make anyone worthy of worship, Bluebird. David was highly favored with God, in fact, he was a "man after God's own heart." But no where does it say He should be worshipped or prayed to. That is a man-made doctrine, and you will find no proof or even remote indication that she is to be worshipped, prayed to, or given any special devotion for.

If that WAS the case, then why was it not so in the 1st Century Church? Why didn't these prayers and devotions start into much, much later? When did Christ say to pray to His mother to honor Him? The answer is that He didn't. And, with all due respect, if I and others are correct, such devotion, reverence, and worship, is fitting only to be called idolatry.

I am leaving for the weekend. May God bless you.

And yes, she definitely was special. And so are you and others whom seek to serve the Lord.

Since: Dec 06

I love my hometown :)

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#15
Apr 21, 2007
 
I'm so surprised, but happy about this -- Benedict actually admitted there CAN be salvation for non-Catholics!
Dan

Omaha, NE

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#16
Apr 23, 2007
 
In-HIS-Service wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, now that you ask. How do you feel about a Pope changing the means of salvation? Catholics say that they do not worship Mary; but are they sure about what their leadership teaches? These declarations are from the Vatican Council II, which reinforced the declarations of Trent. I feel for many God fearing and Christ loving Catholics because it is their belief in a "succession of infallible" Pope's that has led to the doctrinal changes you see below. The Bible absolutely teaches in no way, shape or form that Mary is part of the salvation process. She was a vessel of God (and God bless her for submitting herself to be so, a wife, and a mother of the earthborn Christ and His brothers and Sisters. The Bible tells us all of this; but where did the rest of this come from? Has anyone even thought about this question before worshipping as they do? Please read. These are the words from Catholic Officials. No one else's. If you don't believe it than look it up. If you do know these words are from this council, then please explain how/why Mary was given this status? Trent took place in the mid-1500s and Vatican II took place in 1965. In other words centuries later, a bunch of men calling themselves "Popes" (Holy Fathers) and believing themselves infallible, changed the incorruptible word of God. I seek answers from the Catholic perspective, so please do not consider me overly disrespectful, so much as genuinely curious.
"We believe that the Blessed Mary, who ever enjoys the dignity of virginity, was the Mother of the Incarnate Word, of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ, and that in view of her Son's merits she was redeemed in a more exalted manner and preserved from all stain of sin, outstripping in excellence all other creatures by reason of the grace given her." (Vol. 2, pp. 390 and 391)
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin preserved free from all stain of original sin, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, when her earthly life was over, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things ...." (Vol. 1, pp. 417 and 418)
"She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ, she presented him to the Father in the temple, shared her son's sufferings as he died on the cross. Thus, in a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior in restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace." (Vol. 1, p. 418)
"Taken up to heaven she [Mary] did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us gifts of eternal salvation." (Vol. 1, p. 419)
"Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father." (Vol. 1, pp. 420 and 421)
"From the earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, whose protection the faithful take refuge together in prayer in all their perils and needs." (Vol. 1, p. 421)
"We believe that the multitude of those souls gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Heavenly Church." (Vol. 2, pp. 394 and 395)
In His Service
Again, you are missing this;

For the Roman Catholic, Mary is to be venerated. Mary is not to be worshipped.
Faithful Catholic

AOL

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#17
Apr 23, 2007
 
Maybe the difficulty is that we Catholics "get Mary." I have such a hard time comprehending why others don't.

Do you love your own mother? Want her to be respected? What is so hard in understanding that Mary is the most perfect creation of God the Father? If she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit? That Jesus LOVED His Mother? That we are to imitate Him, which would suggest we do the same?

A friend told me of this message board.....Hi Theresa....... she has more patience than me...

Calling the Mother of God a vessel just seems to put all woman down, let alone the Mother of God.....
Bluebird

United States

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#18
Apr 23, 2007
 
Sheryl wrote:
I'm so surprised, but happy about this -- Benedict actually admitted there CAN be salvation for non-Catholics!
Benedict is an Apostate-heretic. Anything he says is not worth the breath to say it.
Bluebird

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#19
Apr 23, 2007
 
Faithful Catholic wrote:
Maybe the difficulty is that we Catholics "get Mary." I have such a hard time comprehending why others don't.
Do you love your own mother? Want her to be respected? What is so hard in understanding that Mary is the most perfect creation of God the Father? If she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit? That Jesus LOVED His Mother? That we are to imitate Him, which would suggest we do the same?
A friend told me of this message board.....Hi Theresa....... she has more patience than me...
Calling the Mother of God a vessel just seems to put all woman down, let alone the Mother of God.....
Our Lord did His first recorded miracle at the request of His mother.

He knew that this was the beginning of the road to Calvary, but He did it anyway. His mother also knew it, because she knew the plan of salvation.

Since: Dec 06

I love my hometown :)

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#20
Apr 23, 2007
 
Faithful Catholic wrote:
Maybe the difficulty is that we Catholics "get Mary." I have such a hard time comprehending why others don't.
Do you love your own mother? Want her to be respected? What is so hard in understanding that Mary is the most perfect creation of God the Father? If she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit? That Jesus LOVED His Mother? That we are to imitate Him, which would suggest we do the same?
A friend told me of this message board.....Hi Theresa....... she has more patience than me...
Calling the Mother of God a vessel just seems to put all woman down, let alone the Mother of God.....
When did Jesus ever tell anyone to venerate His mother? When did He ever instruct people to make "devotions" to her? When did He ever claim Mary was going to be a powerful intercessor?

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