No Faith In Buddha, No entry in Dharma

No Faith In Buddha, No entry in Dharma

Posted in the Buddhism Forum

Hello

New York, NY

#1 Aug 27, 2013
Here is a wonderful discussion on what happens to so called Buddhists who learn everything about Buddhism but fail to develop faith in The Lord -- Devadutta is an ex. Of a guy who was one of those Buddhists who hated Buddha!

The Lotus Sutra, wherein the Buddha honestly discarded all provisional teachings, says that one may "gain entrance through faith." And the Nirvana Sutra, which the Buddha preached in the grove of sal trees on the last day of his life, states, "Although there are innumerable practices which lead to enlightenment, if one teaches faith, then that includes all those practices."

Thus faith is the basic requirement for entering the way of the Buddha. In the fifty-two stages of bodhisattva practice, the first ten stages, dealing with faith, are basic, and the first of these ten stages is that of arousing pure faith. Though a person has no knowledge of Buddhism, if he has pure faith, then even though he may be dull-witted, he is to be reckoned as a man of correct views. But even though one has some knowledge of Buddhism, if he is without faith, then he is to be considered a slanderer and an icchantika or person of incorrigible disbelief.

The monk Sunakshatra observed the two hundred and fifty precepts, mastered the four stages of meditation, and was versed in all the twelve types of sutras while Devadatta learned the sixty thousand non-Buddhist teachings and the eighty thousand Buddhist teachings and could manifest eighteen miraculous powers with his body. And yet it is said that these men, because they had knowledge but no faith, are now in the great citadel of the Avichi Hell. Mahakashyapa and Shariputra on the other hand lacked knowledge but had faith, and the Buddha accordingly predicted that they would become the Buddhas Light Bright and Flower Light respectively. The Buddha stated, "One who gives way to doubt and does not have faith will surely fall into the evil paths." These words refer to those who have knowledge but are without faith.
Hello

New York, NY

#2 Aug 27, 2013

“bungai terong”

Since: Mar 08

lantang senang belama

#3 Aug 28, 2013
on what grounds do pacceka buddhas attain Nibbana?

there was no samma sambuddha present :)

Dhammapada Verses 190 & 191: One, who takes refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Samgha, sees with Magga Insight the Four Noble Truths, viz., Dukkha, the Cause of Dukkha, the Cessation of Dukkha, and the Noble Path of Eight Constituents which leads to the Cessation of Dukkha.

Buddhas & Arahants attain Nibbana by virtue of conquering the defilements
Hello

New York, NY

#4 Aug 29, 2013
sampuna wrote:
on what grounds do pacceka buddhas attain Nibbana?
there was no samma sambuddha present :)
Dhammapada Verses 190 & 191: One, who takes refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Samgha, sees with Magga Insight the Four Noble Truths, viz., Dukkha, the Cause of Dukkha, the Cessation of Dukkha, and the Noble Path of Eight Constituents which leads to the Cessation of Dukkha.
Buddhas & Arahants attain Nibbana by virtue of conquering the defilements
On the grounds they studied under previous Buddhas. There is no Buddha who became Buddha without having the prerequisite of Faith in other Buddhas.

Your understanding and claim is groundless.

“bungai terong”

Since: Mar 08

lantang senang belama

#5 Aug 29, 2013
Hello wrote:
<quoted text>
On the grounds they studied under previous Buddhas. There is no Buddha who became Buddha without having the prerequisite of Faith in other Buddhas.
Your understanding and claim is groundless.
NOTE :* sees with Magga Insight the Four Noble Truths, viz., Dukkha, the Cause of Dukkha, the Cessation of Dukkha, and the Noble Path of Eight Constituents which leads to the Cessation of Dukkha.

Buddha-Dhamma is not Guruism.

Nibbana is clearly 'letting go', not faith in anything. Care to read a few key suttas?

*a stanza from Ratana Sutta :
...With the old extinct,
nothing new to be repro­duced,
the mind detach­ed from future birth
— they have destroy­ed the seeds of existence.
Their desires do not spring up again and those wise ones go out even as this lamp..."

*Mahasatipathana Sutta :
"This is a way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the extinguishing of suffering and grief, for walking on the path of truth, for the realisation of nibbana: that is to say, the fourfold establishing of awareness

...a monk dwells ardent with awareness and constant thorough understanding of impermanence, observing body in body, having removed craving and aversion towards the world;
he dwells ardent with awareness and constant thorough understanding of impermanence, observing sensations in sensations, having removed craving and aversion towards the world;
he dwells ardent with awareness and constant thorough understanding of impermanence, observing mind in mind, having removed craving and aversion towards the world;
he dwells ardent with awareness and constant thorough understanding of impermanence, observing mental contents in mental contents, having removed craving and aversion towards the world...

*Dhammacakkapavatana Sutta:
"...So long, bhikkhus, as my knowledge, and vision of reality regarding these four noble truths, in three phases and twelve ways, was not fully clear to me, I did not declare to the world with its devas and m&#257;ras, to the mass of beings with its devas and humans, that I understood incomparable, perfect enlightenment.

But when, bhikkhus, as my knowledge, and vision of reality regarding these four noble truths, in three phases and twelve ways, was fully clear to me, I declared to the world with its devas and m&#257;ras, to the mass of beings with its devas and humans that I understood incomparable, perfect enlightenment..."
Hello

New York, NY

#6 Aug 30, 2013
sampuna wrote:
<quoted text>
NOTE :* sees with Magga Insight the Four Noble Truths, viz., Dukkha, the Cause of Dukkha, the Cessation of Dukkha, and the Noble Path of Eight Constituents which leads to the Cessation of Dukkha.
Buddha-Dhamma is not Guruism.
Nibbana is clearly 'letting go', not faith in anything. Care to read a few key suttas?
*a stanza from Ratana Sutta :
...With the old extinct,
nothing new to be repro­duced,
the mind detach­ed from future birth
— they have destroy­ed the seeds of existence.
Their desires do not spring up again and those wise ones go out even as this lamp..."
*Mahasatipathana Sutta :
"This is a way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the extinguishing of suffering and grief, for walking on the path of truth, for the realisation of nibbana: that is to say, the fourfold establishing of awareness
...a monk dwells ardent with awareness and constant thorough understanding of impermanence, observing body in body, having removed craving and aversion towards the world;
he dwells ardent with awareness and constant thorough understanding of impermanence, observing sensations in sensations, having removed craving and aversion towards the world;
he dwells ardent with awareness and constant thorough understanding of impermanence, observing mind in mind, having removed craving and aversion towards the world;
he dwells ardent with awareness and constant thorough understanding of impermanence, observing mental contents in mental contents, having removed craving and aversion towards the world...
*Dhammacakkapavatana Sutta:
"...So long, bhikkhus, as my knowledge, and vision of reality regarding these four noble truths, in three phases and twelve ways, was not fully clear to me, I did not declare to the world with its devas and m&#257;ras, to the mass of beings with its devas and humans, that I understood incomparable, perfect enlightenment.
But when, bhikkhus, as my knowledge, and vision of reality regarding these four noble truths, in three phases and twelve ways, was fully clear to me, I declared to the world with its devas and m&#257;ras, to the mass of beings with its devas and humans that I understood incomparable, perfect enlightenment..."
Yes and reality is Buddha. Buddha is not found in form, feeling, etc.

You are trying to promote false knowledge and forsaking Buddha.

“bungai terong”

Since: Mar 08

lantang senang belama

#7 Sep 1, 2013
Hello wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes and reality is Buddha. Buddha is not found in form, feeling, etc.
You are trying to promote false knowledge and forsaking Buddha.
care to show a few suttas to refute ?
Hello

New York, NY

#8 Sep 2, 2013
sampuna wrote:
<quoted text>
care to show a few suttas to refute ?
Anuradha Sutta- here the question is what happens with the passing away of the Tatagatha?
It delves into the question as to what is a Tatagatha?

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabric ations-consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare,'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

“bungai terong”

Since: Mar 08

lantang senang belama

#9 Sep 5, 2013
Hello wrote:
<quoted text>
Anuradha Sutta- here the question is what happens with the passing away of the Tatagatha?
It delves into the question as to what is a Tatagatha?
"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?"
"No, lord."
"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"
"No, lord."
"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"
"No, lord."
"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"
"No, lord."
"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"
"No, lord."
"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"
"No, lord."
"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabric ations-consciousness?"
"No, lord."
"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"
"No, lord."
"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare,'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"
"No, lord."
how does this connect to your controversial claim of "no faith in the Buddha means no Dhamma"???
Hello

New York, NY

#10 Sep 6, 2013
sampuna wrote:
<quoted text>
how does this connect to your controversial claim of "no faith in the Buddha means no Dhamma"???
This refutes what you were claiming - I was promoting a cult of personality.

This clearly states that Buddha is beyond the 5 skandhas and cannot be defined by the 5 skandhas.

As to faith in the Tathagatha as being essential:

You think you can just practice the Noble Eightfold Path without knowing Buddha is the Supreme Most? NOT! You can meditate, but not obtain the Noble Eightfold Path. BUDDHA GIVES YOU THE LAW, THE PATH!

Verified confidence and faith in the Buddha as "Bhagavan" or God constitutes the "Four Factors of Stream Entry" (AN 10.92 Vera Sutta,Animosity),

"And which are the four factors of stream-entry with which he is endowed?

1)"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with unwavering faith in the Buddha:'Indeed, God is worthy & all knowing, consummate in knowledge & conduct, happy, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, The Lord.'

2) "He is endowed with unwavering faith in the Dhamma...

3) "He is endowed with unwavering faith in the Sangha...

4) "He is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones...

"These are the four factors of stream-entry with which he is endowed.

with the stream being the Noble Eightfold Path (SN 55.5)

So if you don't have confidence in Buddha as Bhagavan or God -- no noble Eightfold Path for you!

"Sariputta,'The stream, the stream': thus it is said. And what, Sariputta, is the stream?"

"This noble eightfold path, lord, is the stream: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."

"Very good, Sariputta! Very good! This noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the stream."

In the Mahaparinibbana sutta the Buddha recollection constitute "The mirror of the Dhamma" and thus constitutes the first step in "right view" of the "Noble Eightfold Path."

TRUE FAITH IN BUDDHA IS BAPTISM!

[Nandaka responded,] "Enough, I say, with this external bath. I am satisfied with this internal bath: confidence in the Blessed One."

— Licchavi Sutta
Hello

New York, NY

#11 Sep 9, 2013
Of course, this is not something which I needed to tell people. Affection for the Buddha comes naturally once the teachings are realized. The more you learn, the more affection you have for him. It's natural. That's why people like Devdatta are unnatural, how can you be so close to Buddha, yet be so far?

“bungai terong”

Since: Mar 08

lantang senang belama

#12 Sep 9, 2013
Hello wrote:
Of course, this is not something which I needed to tell people. Affection for the Buddha comes naturally once the teachings are realized. The more you learn, the more affection you have for him. It's natural. That's why people like Devdatta are unnatural, how can you be so close to Buddha, yet be so far?
~ the main point here is attainment of the Path is through the cutting off of defilements, NOT faith in anyone
Hello

New York, NY

#13 Sep 9, 2013
sampuna wrote:
<quoted text>
~ the main point here is attainment of the Path is through the cutting off of defilements, NOT faith in anyone
Faith in the Triple Gem and unbroken Sila leads to the arising of the Noble Eightfold Path.

One can reduce defilements somewhat even through non Buddhist meditation, yoga, etc. there is testimony to this in the MahaGovinda sutta, where he is able to reduce lust to enter Brahma worlds. Obtaining the Noble Eightfold Path or stream entry is something special and more than just cutting off defilements:

Sole dominion over the earth,
going to heaven,
lordship over all worlds:
the fruit of stream-entry
excels them.

Dhammapada 178

“bungai terong”

Since: Mar 08

lantang senang belama

#14 Sep 10, 2013
Hello wrote:
<quoted text>
Faith in the Triple Gem and unbroken Sila leads to the arising of the Noble Eightfold Path.
One can reduce defilements somewhat even through non Buddhist meditation, yoga, etc. there is testimony to this in the MahaGovinda sutta, where he is able to reduce lust to enter Brahma worlds. Obtaining the Noble Eightfold Path or stream entry is something special and more than just cutting off defilements:
Sole dominion over the earth,
going to heaven,
lordship over all worlds:
the fruit of stream-entry
excels them.
Dhammapada 178
the process of attaining Dhamma -viz. Sotapanna upwards IS the uprooting of defilements - that's the mainpoint.

we cannot equate the Sublime Dhamma to other religions whereby their 'spiritual attainment' is unwavering faith in their 'god'. This is clearly not the case in Buddhism, whereby the starting point is, as pointed out in the first formal discourse (Dhammacakkapavatana Sutta):

"Truly bhikkhus, this middle way understood by the Tathagata produces vision, produces knowledge, and leads to calm, penetration, enlightenment, nibbana."

And later on, Kondanna was declared 'a fully understood' follower:

"Then the Blessed One made the utterance,“Truly Kondanna has understood, Kondanna has understood.”

Thus it was that the Venerable Kondañña got the name Kondañña the wise."

*Dhamma = Understanding
Hello

New York, NY

#15 Sep 10, 2013
sampuna wrote:
<quoted text>
the process of attaining Dhamma -viz. Sotapanna upwards IS the uprooting of defilements - that's the mainpoint.
we cannot equate the Sublime Dhamma to other religions whereby their 'spiritual attainment' is unwavering faith in their 'god'. This is clearly not the case in Buddhism, whereby the starting point is, as pointed out in the first formal discourse (Dhammacakkapavatana Sutta):
"Truly bhikkhus, this middle way understood by the Tathagata produces vision, produces knowledge, and leads to calm, penetration, enlightenment, nibbana."
And later on, Kondanna was declared 'a fully understood' follower:
"Then the Blessed One made the utterance,“Truly Kondanna has understood, Kondanna has understood.”
Thus it was that the Venerable Kondañña got the name Kondañña the wise."
*Dhamma = Understanding
Understanding is Buddha. Without Buddha Kondanna could not see. To understand is to see Buddha! It's because of Buddha that certain understanding is reached. Why? he understands all the connections and reactions for your body to understand.

He knows all the causes and conditions which will make you understand. That is why Buddha is the Hetuh, or root cause. He has the seed of enlightenment, which he plants in his disciples.

Buddha uses the parable of the good field.

The difference between other religions and Buddhism is that we have a chance to become Buddhas ourselves.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Buddhism Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Buddha TV serial a Hit! (Oct '13) Aug 8 Niraj 7
News Inevitable Awakening ~ Dharmavidya Jul '17 True Christian wi... 3
Did Gautama Buddha see a mystical creature? Jun '17 TJa 2
Great Buddhism Podcast May '17 Brian 1
ti amo (Nov '11) Apr '17 1o1o1i 5,558
How To Practice Buddhism? Apr '17 flower9 1
News Dalai Lama says Chinese hardliners have parts o... Apr '17 John 4
More from around the web