" No Surrender of Anything to Those P...

" No Surrender of Anything to Those Powers That Are Evil" - Buddha

Posted in the Buddhism Forum

DDR

Williamsburg, VA

#1 Dec 10, 2012
This is one of several passages from the text showing Buddha does prohibit the protection of others, but he put the blame on the perpetrators:

Simha said: "One doubt still lurks in my mind concerning the doctrine of the Blessed One. Will the Blessed One consent to clear the cloud away so that I may understand the Dharma as the Blessed One teaches it?"

The Tathagata having given his consent, Simha continued: "I am a soldier, O Blessed One, and am appointed by the king to enforce his laws and to wage his wars. Does the Tathagata who teaches kindness without end and compassion with all sufferers, permit the punishment of the criminal? and further, does the Tathagata declare that it is wrong to go to war for the protection of our homes, our wives, our children, and our property? Does the Tathagata teach the doctrine of a complete self-surrender, so that I should suffer the evil-doer to do what he pleases and yield submissively to him who threatens to take by violence what is my own? Does the Tathagata maintain that all strife, including such warfare as is waged for a righteous cause should be forbidden?"

The Buddha replied: "He who deserves punishment must be punished, and he who is worthy of favor must be favored. Yet at the same time he teaches to do no injury to any living being but to be full of love and kindness. These injunctions are not contradictory, for whosoever must be punished for the crimes which he has committed, suffers his injury not through the ill-will of the judge but on account of his evildoing. His own acts have brought upon him the injury that the executer of the law inflicts. When a magistrate punishes, let him not harbor hatred in his breast, yet a murderer, when put to death, should consider that this is the fruit of his own act. As soon as he will understand that the punishment will purify his soul, he will no longer lament his fate but rejoice at it."

The Blessed One continued: "The Tathagata teaches that all warfare in which man tries to slay his brother is lamentable, but HE DOES NOT TEACH THAT THOSE WHO GO TO WAR IN A RIGHTEOUS CAUSE AFTER HAVING EXHAUSTED ALL MEANS TO PRESERVE PEACE ARE BLAMEWORTHY . HE MUST BE BLAMED WHO IS THE CAUSE OF WAR . The Tathagata teaches a complete surrender of self, BUT HE DOES NOT TEACH A SURRENDER OF ANYTHING TO THOSE POWERS THAT ARE EVIL , BE THEY MEN OR GODS, or THE ELEMENTS OF NATURE. Struggle must be, for all life is a struggle of some kind. But he that struggles should look to it lest he struggle in the interest of self against truth and righteousness."
DDR

Williamsburg, VA

#2 Dec 10, 2012
The Buddha does not prohibit in stead of " does prohibit".
sampuna

Malaysia

#3 Dec 13, 2012
Paul Carus : Gospel of the Buddha

so far,no sutta whatsoever was found to contain this doubious quote
DDR

Chesapeake, VA

#4 Dec 14, 2012
Where do you think Paul Carus got it from, the story about Sinha is in the Vinaya Pitaka and you are looking in the Sutta Pitaka.
sampuna

Malaysia

#5 Dec 16, 2012
DDR wrote:
Where do you think Paul Carus got it from, the story about Sinha is in the Vinaya Pitaka and you are looking in the Sutta Pitaka.
show me then.You are now moving into one whole new pitaka which I think you are not even familiar with.
Hello

Westbury, NY

#6 Dec 16, 2012
sampuna wrote:
<quoted text>
show me then.You are now moving into one whole new pitaka which I think you are not even familiar with.
Again what is YOUR point sampunna? That Buddhists are not to defend themselves?

You better state your point. The Dharma should never go in the hands of monkeys who will cost precious Buddhist lives.
sampuna

Malaysia

#7 Dec 16, 2012
Hello wrote:
<quoted text>
Again what is YOUR point sampunna? That Buddhists are not to defend themselves?
You better state your point. The Dharma should never go in the hands of monkeys who will cost precious Buddhist lives.
come on,show me the source. Quit beating around the bush. Vinaya Pitaka you said?
sampuna

Malaysia

#8 Dec 16, 2012
Hello wrote:
<quoted text>
Again what is YOUR point sampunna? That Buddhists are not to defend themselves?
You better state your point. The Dharma should never go in the hands of monkeys who will cost precious Buddhist lives.
the sutta please ;) no sutta, no talk. Paul Carus, you keep it to yourself.
Hello

Westbury, NY

#9 Dec 17, 2012
sampuna wrote:
<quoted text>
the sutta please ;) no sutta, no talk. Paul Carus, you keep it to yourself.
What is your stance monkey? Your family is going to be slaughtered to defend or not?

I have given plenty of Suttas. Your death is starting old man, you keep lying. Death and decay will kill you soon enough.
sampuna

Malaysia

#10 Dec 17, 2012
Hello wrote:
<quoted text>
What is your stance monkey? Your family is going to be slaughtered to defend or not?
I have given plenty of Suttas. Your death is starting old man, you keep lying. Death and decay will kill you soon enough.
you keep on harping on defence,but you're not doing that. You are SHAMING the Buddha Sasana by insulting non-Buddhists and promoting hate upon non-Buddhists. This has to stop.

your talk is empty talk. not based on the Nikayas. Up till now,all you know is just to copy & paste Paul carus's work. When I demanded for the real source,you can't find it.

Too unfortunate for you. You have been duped by hate mongering racist so-called Buddhists.

I have read your racial slurs across the forum. You know your worth, measured against the Dhamma.
Hello

Fairfax, VA

#12 Dec 18, 2012
sampuna wrote:
<quoted text>
you keep on harping on defence,but you're not doing that. You are SHAMING the Buddha Sasana by insulting non-Buddhists and promoting hate upon non-Buddhists. This has to stop.
your talk is empty talk. not based on the Nikayas. Up till now,all you know is just to copy & paste Paul carus's work. When I demanded for the real source,you can't find it.
Too unfortunate for you. You have been duped by hate mongering racist so-called Buddhists.
I have read your racial slurs across the forum. You know your worth, measured against the Dhamma.
This discussion is about defense. All of Dhamma is about protecting oneself and others. However, it also allows Buddhists to protect themselves and their loved ones from assault.

Again, if those of wrong view come to assault Buddhists, Buddhists MUST overcome their lies with truth.
DDR

Williamsburg, VA

#13 Dec 18, 2012
So now you are attacking people with hate speech for following the Buddha's teaching and not conforming to your distorted ideas aren't you! Can't you see the contradiction you are showing. If you want to discuss the text you better know what you are talking about otherwise you have no clue where it is or if it is in there when others brought it up . Then you end up maligning people.

I will repeat another info from the text that you have never come across. Just telling you about it is still not enough because you still can't look it up for yourself and kept on slandering people. Others have also mentioned about the passage else as well:

==========

" 1. There were persons who objected to the doctrine of Ahimsa. They said that it
involved surrender or non-resistance to evil.
2. This is a complete misrepresentation of what the Blessed Lord taught by his
doctrine of Ahimsa.
3. The Blessed Lord has made his position clear on various occasions so as to
leave no room for ambiguity or misunderstanding.
4. The first such occasion to which reference should be made is the occasion
when he made a rule regarding the entry of a soldier in the Sangh.
5. At one time the border provinces of the kingdom of Magadha were agitated.
Then the Magadha king Seniya Bimbisara gave order to the Commander of the army:
' Well now, go and ask your officers to search through the border provinces for
the offenders, punish them and restore peace." The Commander acted accordingly.
6. On hearing the orders of the Commander the officers found themselyes placed
in a dilemma. They knew that the Tathagatha taught that those who go to war and
find delight in fighting, do evil and produce great demerit. On the other hand,
here was the king's order to capture the offenders and to kill them. Now what
shall we do, asked the officers to themselves.
7. Then these officers thought: "If we could enter the order of the Buddha we
would be able to escape from the dilemma."
8. Thus these officers went to the bhikkhus and asked them for ordination; the
bhikkhus conferred on them the pabbajja and upasampada ordinations and the
officers disappeared from the army.
9. The Commander of the army .finding that the officers were not to be seen,
asked the soldiers: "Why, how is it that the officers are nowhere to be seen ?"
" The officers, lord, have embraced religious life of the bhikkhus," replied the
soldiers.
10. Then the Commander of the army was annoyed, and became very angry: "How can
the bhikkhus ordain persons in the royal army ? "
11. The Commander of the army informed the king of what had happened. And the
king asked the officers of justice: "Tell me, my good sirs, what punishment does
he deserve who ordains a person in the royal service ?"
12. "The Upagghaya, Your Majesty, should be beheaded; to him who recites (the
Kammavaka), the tongue should be torn out; to those who form the chapter, half
of their ribs should be broken."
13. Then the king went to the place where the Blessed One was; and after
obeisance informed him of what had happened.
14. " The Lord well knows that there are kings who are against the Dhamma. These
hostile kings are ever ready to harass the bhikkhus even for trifling reasons.
It is impossible to imagine the lengths to which they might go in their
ill-treatment of the bhikkhus if they find that the bhikkhus are seducing the
soldiers to leave the army and join the Sangh. Pray Lord to do the needful to
avert the disaster."
15. The Lord replied: " It was never my intention to allow soldiers undfer the
cloak of Ahimsa or in the name of Ahimsa to abandon their duty to the king or to
their country."
16. Accordingly the Blessed One made a rule against the admission of persons in
royal service to the Sangh and proclaimed it to the bhikkhus, saying: "Let no
one, 0 Bhikkhus, who is in the royal service, receive the Pabbajja ordination.
He who confers the Pabbajja ordination on such a person will be guilty of a
dukkata offence."
DDR

Williamsburg, VA

#14 Dec 18, 2012
Another incident was also mentioned before. Pasenadi is a Buddhist disciple of the Buddha, when another king attacked his kingdom and people the Buddha did not tell him not to protect innocent people. He lost a few battles and suffered , but later won the entire war. The invaders who plundered Pasenadi and his people is now plundered. Did the Buddha told him to stop defending the innocent people of the country? Did he tell Pasenadi to allow his people to be killed in order to be Dharmic? No! You are not familiar with various aspects of the texts and yet abusing people with hate speech and falsely acusing people for being undharmic. Who are you to decide! We only follow the I struction of the Buddha and not anyone else. The Buddha clearly did not forbid Buddhist from self defense on several occasion . Who do you think you are to tell us otherwise! Nobody ask you about the dharma, so you know what to do. In Buddhism The Lord Buddha did not assign anyone to be a dharma police to whip Buddhists 40 times for such and such, but only in Islam. I will repeat, in Buddhism we have dharma as a guide and no one else. Nobody asked you or assigned you to be a dharma police and tell this and that person to be ashame of themselves or attack them with hate speech and labels, why are you shoving your distorted idea into other people's face.

Do you remember what you said earlier, if your practice is annoying others then you should drop it. Whatever it is you are talking about , you should follow it or is this another one of your double standard again?

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