Should Billy Graham's legacy be rescued?

Feb 13, 2013 Full story: Q-Notes 1,638

President Barack Obama with Rev. Billy Graham at his house in Montreat, N.C., April 25, 2010.

Full Story
barry

Rainsville, AL

#164 Feb 23, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
False.
The alleged "first century" stuff is fake.
Silly boyo.
of course you ignore the historical and geographical facts about the location.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#165 Feb 23, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
No, HE didn't you idiot.
The Genuine Christians™ >>certainly<< had one, and THEY are the asses who wrecked Josephus' works.
Look, stupid-- ALL the parts that refer to "Jewsus" use the WRONG LANGUAGE-- it is TOO NEW, to have been written by Josephus.
But, much-much later, your Genuine Christians™, who were quite happy to LIE, were too stupid to know the subtle differences, and added in their shyt-story.
Foolish True Believers™-- they did not recon with the power of modern language analysis.
And their LIES were found out.
Are you really this stupid?
Hmmmmm....
some would make the argument that the Bible has been tampered with and they would point to "older" if not at least different copies of manuscripts.
is there another copy of Josephus's work that would support your argument?
not really is there?

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#166 Feb 23, 2013
TJohn wrote:
<quoted text>Damn old man. Just a little bitter about life ?
You remind me of the old grandpa in the family that everybody hopes he keeps his big mouth shut because you know he is gonna say something stupid and senile.
Really ? 69 k post ? Here is a thought. Get up and wash your shit stained pants or at least change em.
I just saw your post for the first time on this thread and I can only believe that you are a bitter, hateful and unthoughful old man with really no life except this site and God forbid it should ever crash.
Lovely. The seething hate from yet another Genuine Christian™ shines forth once more.

Nice.

You are a credit to your cult of hate (christianity).

Thanks for playing.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#167 Feb 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>you are clueless.
operating expenses and fundraising only account for about 15% of total budget. go find a legitimate charlatan to attack.
Sorry, but I do not believe you for one second.

You are a self-admitted liar after all.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#168 Feb 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>first he'd have to restore your eye sight. we'll wait.
So you freely admit that your god is just a myth then?

We thought as much.

Liar.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#169 Feb 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>first he'd have to restore your eye sight. we'll wait.
As for restoring eyesight?

That is something your feeble little godling appears 100% unable to do.

Pity, you-- sight restoration might have been a nice bit of proof, that your god was real.

But that never--ever happened, did it?

Nope.

Science, however, is on the short-train to making artificial sight a reality.

Proving once again, science triumphs where you godling fails.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#170 Feb 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>barry wrote:
<quoted text>common thought among some Bible scholars. apparently if someone disagrees with your body of thought they do not qualify as a scholar.
your opinion is noted,
LOL!

Seeing as how you are a self-admitted liar?

It is hardly surprising you would side with the other liars.

LOL!

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#171 Feb 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>according to your club of scholars.
No.

According to anyone who has scholarly credibility.

Your Liars For Jewsus are not included, sorry.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172 Feb 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>of course you ignore the historical and geographical facts about the location.
LOL!

There are none such, silly boyo.

More lies from you?

Yep.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#173 Feb 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>some would make the argument that the Bible has been tampered with and they would point to "older" if not at least different copies of manuscripts.
is there another copy of Josephus's work that would support your argument?
not really is there?
Let me review:

For every single part of Josephus' writings that we still have, the language is >>consistent<< with the time-frame that Josephus lived.

Except for >>one<< part-- JUST ONE-- the part that describes your Jewsus.

That is IT: the SINGLE bit that talks about your Jewsus, has DIFFERENT LANGUAGE. Language that is WAY TOO NEW, to have been written by Josephus.

Thus? It is 100% fraud, and obviously so.

You lose.

Again.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#174 Feb 23, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>some would make the argument that the Bible has been tampered with and they would point to "older" if not at least different copies of manuscripts.
Indeed.

The bible >>has<< been tampered with-- A LOT.

Good!

You are making such progress to becoming an actual human being.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#175 Feb 23, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, but I do not believe you for one second.
You are a self-admitted liar after all.
it,s been posted. you have a very selective memory. but that's ok you can't add up years so you exaggerate claims of when scripture was written and you have no clue what a "tax credit" is or how it works different from a tax deduction. probably because you have never really personally taken advantage of either.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#176 Feb 23, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL!
Seeing as how you are a self-admitted liar?
It is hardly surprising you would side with the other liars.
LOL!
generally i ignore foolish insults but you have locked into this one. so, i'm curious where or how did i admit to lying?
barry

Rainsville, AL

#177 Feb 23, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
No.
According to anyone who has scholarly credibility.
Your Liars For Jewsus are not included, sorry.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>common thought among some Bible scholars. apparently if someone disagrees with your body of thought they do not qualify as a scholar.

your agreement is noted.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#178 Feb 23, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL!
There are none such, silly boyo.
More lies from you?
Yep.
well, i posted them and it is very evident that you choose to ignore them.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#179 Feb 23, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me review:
For every single part of Josephus' writings that we still have, the language is >>consistent<< with the time-frame that Josephus lived.
Except for >>one<< part-- JUST ONE-- the part that describes your Jewsus.
That is IT: the SINGLE bit that talks about your Jewsus, has DIFFERENT LANGUAGE. Language that is WAY TOO NEW, to have been written by Josephus.
Thus? It is 100% fraud, and obviously so.
You lose.
Again.
copied;
There is some debate among scholars over the authenticity of paragraph 3. Most scholars believe that the majority of the paragraph is authentic, with a few crucial sentences inserted later by Christian scribes. Some scholars think that the entire paragraph is a later Christian insertion. A few scholars believe that the entire passage is indeed authentic, and that Josephus himself wrote it down in the form seen here, without later revision.

"Jewish Antiquities" was published in Rome in 93 A.D., but the original manuscripts have been lost. The earliest surviving copies of "Jewish Antiquities" all contain the passage as printed above. Eusebius quoted the Testimonium Flavianum (TF) in full in about 324 A.D. Therefore, any revision would have had to occur between 93 and 324 A.D. Beyond that brief observation, I will let you look up and review other scholarly evaluations of the Testimonium Flavianum on your own - you can find several on the Internet from various points of view. An excellent place to start is this web site on Flavius Josephus by independent scholar Gary J. Goldberg:

Despite the importance of the TF, Christians ought to feel more free to investigate its authenticity. The works of Josephus are not the Holy Bible; "Jewish Antiquities" is not the Word of God in the same sense that the Pentateuch and the Gospels are. Fundamentalist Christians can be more objective when evaluating whether the TF was written originally by the hand of Josephus, or by some later Christian hand. Bear in mind that this debate centers on the authenticity of the passage, not on the fundamental truth of the assertions expressed therein.

Two sentences within the TF jump out at me. "He was [the] Christ" sounds like a blunt declaration of faith. Why would Josephus confess Christ and then go on writing about Saturninus, Tiberius, Vitellius, and Aretas? Perhaps the answer is that Josephus did not know exactly who the Messiah was supposed to be.

First, the passage is frustratingly brief. As a Christian in 2001, I would have written "He was the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, and if you believe in Him right now you will have eternal life!" Why does Josephus go on and on about Paulina when I want to hear more about Jesus? Secondly, the TF has a more distant flavor. It seems to rely on second-hand and third-hand information, whereas the horrible story of Paulina sounds like first-hand information. This is no surprise - Josephus was born years after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and he wrote "Jewish Antiquities" in Rome. Josephus is reporting information that he obtained from various sources, like any good historian would. The Paulina story sounds like Josephus heard it on the streets of Rome, even from some of the principals. The TF sounds like a story, an interesting rumor, which he heard from a distant land.

The second sentence that jumps out at me is, "And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." From our perspective this is the understatement of the millennium! But in the first century, this would be a very strange sentiment for a Christian to express. It states the thought negatively, as if to say, "Those Christians are still hanging in there, but in a few more decades they will be gone." Early Christians hoped that their movement would continue and grow, not become extinct. The sentence only makes sense if it is expressed by an interested observer, someone outside the Christian community.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#180 Feb 23, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me review:
For every single part of Josephus' writings that we still have, the language is >>consistent<< with the time-frame that Josephus lived.
Except for >>one<< part-- JUST ONE-- the part that describes your Jewsus.
That is IT: the SINGLE bit that talks about your Jewsus, has DIFFERENT LANGUAGE. Language that is WAY TOO NEW, to have been written by Josephus.
Thus? It is 100% fraud, and obviously so.
You lose.
Again.
There is some debate among scholars over the authenticity of paragraph 3. Most scholars believe that the majority of the paragraph is authentic, with a few crucial sentences inserted later by Christian scribes. Some scholars think that the entire paragraph is a later Christian insertion. A few scholars believe that the entire passage is indeed authentic, and that Josephus himself wrote it down in the form seen here, without later revision.

"Jewish Antiquities" was published in Rome in 93 A.D., but the original manuscripts have been lost. The earliest surviving copies of "Jewish Antiquities" all contain the passage as printed above. Eusebius quoted the Testimonium Flavianum (TF) in full in about 324 A.D. Therefore, any revision would have had to occur between 93 and 324 A.D. Beyond that brief observation, I will let you look up and review other scholarly evaluations of the Testimonium Flavianum on your own - you can find several on the Internet from various points of view. An excellent place to start is this web site on Flavius Josephus by independent scholar Gary J. Goldberg:

Despite the importance of the TF, Christians ought to feel more free to investigate its authenticity. The works of Josephus are not the Holy Bible; "Jewish Antiquities" is not the Word of God in the same sense that the Pentateuch and the Gospels are. Fundamentalist Christians can be more objective when evaluating whether the TF was written originally by the hand of Josephus, or by some later Christian hand. Bear in mind that this debate centers on the authenticity of the passage, not on the fundamental truth of the assertions expressed therein.

Two sentences within the TF jump out at me. "He was [the] Christ" sounds like a blunt declaration of faith. Why would Josephus confess Christ and then go on writing about Saturninus, Tiberius, Vitellius, and Aretas? Perhaps the answer is that Josephus did not know exactly who the Messiah was supposed to be.

First, the passage is frustratingly brief. As a Christian in 2001, I would have written "He was the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, and if you believe in Him right now you will have eternal life!" Why does Josephus go on and on about Paulina when I want to hear more about Jesus? Secondly, the TF has a more distant flavor. It seems to rely on second-hand and third-hand information, whereas the horrible story of Paulina sounds like first-hand information. This is no surprise - Josephus was born years after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and he wrote "Jewish Antiquities" in Rome. Josephus is reporting information that he obtained from various sources, like any good historian would. The Paulina story sounds like Josephus heard it on the streets of Rome, even from some of the principals. The TF sounds like a story, an interesting rumor, which he heard from a distant land.

The second sentence that jumps out at me is, "And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." From our perspective this is the understatement of the millennium! But in the first century, this would be a very strange sentiment for a Christian to express. It states the thought negatively, as if to say, "Those Christians are still hanging in there, but in a few more decades they will be gone." Early Christians hoped that their movement would continue and grow, not become extinct. The sentence only makes sense if it is expressed by an interested observer, someone outside the Christian community.
qaxyax

Pittsburgh, PA

#181 Feb 23, 2013
http://youtube.com/watch...
Bolliy old man is worthless

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#182 Feb 23, 2013
Not all scholars are on board with what you claim.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>common thought among some Bible scholars. apparently if someone disagrees with your body of thought they do not qualify as a scholar.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#183 Feb 23, 2013
Your link less spam is ignored and rightfully so. All your blathering doesn't change the fact that Nazareth didn't exist until the second century. It is not mentioned by Josephus who mapped out the entire area and Nazareth is less than a mile away from where he grew up lol how did he miss it? It doesn't appear in any Jewish documents nor Roman either until the second century. All artifacts and documentation of Nazareth point to the seconds century.

Fact.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>so a mythical city that didn't exist until the second century was written about and referenced in the 1st century.
A town in Galilee, the home of Joseph. and the Virgin Mary, and for about 30 years the scene of .

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Atheism Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Atheism to Defeat Religion by 2038 (Apr '12) 15 min oneear69 22,344
Atheism requires as much faith as religion? (Jul '09) 18 min River Tam 227,738
The problem of evil and hate (Oct '13) 23 min wondering 338
Atheism vs. Theism: Knowns and Unknowns 2 hr BeHereNow 134
An atheist returns to Christ (Jan '09) 3 hr Patrick 4,111
Becoming a parent changed everything. 3 hr Patrick 19
Science Disproves Evolution (Aug '12) 8 hr Patrick 931
•••

Atheism People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE

•••