Should Billy Graham's legacy be rescued?

Feb 13, 2013 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Q-Notes

President Barack Obama with Rev. Billy Graham at his house in Montreat, N.C., April 25, 2010.

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1,501 - 1,520 of 1,638 Comments Last updated May 29, 2013

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1527
May 23, 2013
 
He forced his slave girl into marriage and pregnancy. Then he threw his beloved son who she gave birth to along with her into the harsh deadly wilderness with a bottle of water. He then ties his son to an alter for the purpose of being a human sacrifice.

By today's standards he would be a sociopath regardless of the so called happy ending of these people he abused.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>lol i think i'd take old abraham any day over today's modern humanists. those fellows are so kind and compassionate [not] that their life is really boring. they are so educated that they are stupid. let's see abraham was never on welfare, never collected ss and provided a secure and comfortable life style for a large group of people. he took responsibility for his extended family. defended them from outside aggressors. was respected by his neighbors and was a successful business man. i can see why you don't like him.
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1528
May 23, 2013
 
Givemeliberty wrote:
Your apologetic personal opinion erased and rightfully so as biblical fan fiction. Your son is still your child yes? Yes. And of they are unruly you are to snatch them up, being them to the elders and have them stoned to death.
This is the command of your savage, dark god.
Unruly son? Stone him to death.
<quoted text>
now that we are clear that your implication of it being children as in any little child was at best misleading, now that we are clear that it wasn't for disobedience as you tried to claim, and now that we are clear that it was a charge that had to be proven and accepted by the authorities; let's get down to the facts of the culture. there were no prisons as we have today. a family ruined could lead to a village or a city ruined. if this son was nothing more than a rebellious criminal who would eventually cause the death of innocent people and could destroy the economy of a city, yes, they would take measures to protect themselves. one way or another he would be gone. God was providing a way for them to protect themselves.
i like your choice of calling him an unruly son. once again you try to prejudice the discussion by using an inaccurate word.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1529
May 23, 2013
 
So god does not tell him to do it? God doesn't say for him to sacrifice Isaac?

Try genesis 22:1-2

God says to him sacrifice him as a burnt offering.

Now later does god tell him to stop?

Nope an angel comes Yahweh remains silent.

Genesis 22:11 an angel. God is never described as an angel, indeed angels are beneath him remember?

Sad how an atheist has to school you on your own religion. Perhaps you should study the bible before making a blithering jackass out of yourself.

The Abraham myth is nice though because we see Isaac was to be a burnt offering and the Abraham story lays out clearly how a burnt offering was done.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>you might want to read that passage again and show me where it specifically says that God directly talked to him. now he may have but it doesn't say so. then you can explain to us why the "angel of the Lord" can not possibly be God himself.
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1530
May 23, 2013
 
Givemeliberty wrote:
He forced his slave girl into marriage and pregnancy. Then he threw his beloved son who she gave birth to along with her into the harsh deadly wilderness with a bottle of water. He then ties his son to an alter for the purpose of being a human sacrifice.
By today's standards he would be a sociopath regardless of the so called happy ending of these people he abused.
<quoted text>
see, there you go again. distorting the story so that you can paint the picture you want.
Abraham was a man who trusted God and believed that God truly was God and therefore could and would keep his promise.
God had made a promise to abraham concerning ishmael. abraham knew that God would take care of ishmael. and he did. God had made a promise to abraham concerning isaac so abraham knew that God would do what ever it took to complete that promise. even if isaac had died on that altar God would have had to raise him up.
today's standards are hardly what might be considered the best for us across the board.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1531
May 23, 2013
 
Not changed a thing. If you read in a newspaper today of a man doing to his family what Abraham had done you would dub that man a monster or a lunatic.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>see, there you go again. distorting the story so that you can paint the picture you want.
Abraham was a man who trusted God and believed that God truly was God and therefore could and would keep his promise.
God had made a promise to abraham concerning ishmael. abraham knew that God would take care of ishmael. and he did. God had made a promise to abraham concerning isaac so abraham knew that God would do what ever it took to complete that promise. even if isaac had died on that altar God would have had to raise him up.
today's standards are hardly what might be considered the best for us across the board.
Lincoln

United States

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#1532
May 23, 2013
 

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The troll posting under still another name.
"Th-th-th-th-that's all, folks!"
Givemeliberty wrote:
Not changed a thing. If you read in a newspaper today of a man doing to his family what Abraham had done you would dub that man a monster or a lunatic.
<quoted text>
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1533
May 23, 2013
 
Givemeliberty wrote:
Again I am undecided of you are really this stupid or being purposely obtuse.
Isaac was to die as a human sacrifice as ordered by Yahweh yes? You agree yes? This is what your god commanded Abraham to do yes?
Right as Abraham was going to kill his child as a human sacrifice to you god an angel came to stop him yes? You agree right? That is what happened right?
Jephthah's vow was for a burnt offering for whatever came out of his house first to greet him right? You agree this was his vow yes? He didn't say an approved offering or any other qualifiers yes?
Then it says he kept his vow right? You agree it says he kept his vow yes?
Again I keep waiting for this passage showing his daughter working at the temple. The closest you have is a passage saying the women ( not the men I notice ) go to mourn her sacrifice.
Yes your god ordered his people to stone their unruly acting disobedient children to death and you know it.
<quoted text>
ok, i accept your understanding of the differences between us on this as well as what we agree happened until the conclusion of the jeptha story.
Abraham did not have the levitical law so he had no options nor did he understand that even isaac the son of promise was not an acceptable sacrifice. what he learned was that God did not want isaac as a dead sacrifice but that God would and did provide a substitute. the only human sacrifice that God could accept was the perfect sinless Son of God. isaac was a sinner he could only be sacrificed for himself. however the ram was innocent and died in isaac's place that isaac might go free. that is the picture that forshadows what Christ did for us on calvary's cross. if the "wages of sin is death" and "the soul that sinneth must die" then Christ who "knew no sin" could "become sin for us" and take our place in the condemnation of death "that we might be made the righteousness of God in him".
that would be the foundation of the understanding of sacrifices offered to God.
God's offer of redemption is free and equal to all people. if it actually required the killing of a "spotless [first born male without blemish" lamb every year there would be some people somewhere in some situation that could not do that.
God provided a way even under that system where everyone, rich or poor could participate in the sacrifices. btw, they only applied to the jewish people.
so when we come to jeptha's sacrifice. he had a candidate for the sacrifece that clearly was not going to be acceptable to God. however he had the levitical law and he understood what his options were. so in order to offer a scarifice that was holy and acceptable to God he would have had to take one of the options. otherwise he would have been condemned by God.

now as for your waiting for a passage that says she became a virgin temple servant, i don't claim that that must be what she did. she could have gone and lived alone seperated [holy] from the people as a prophetess, i don't know. however i do know that that word lament in the last verse is translated by some to indicate that the daughters of israel journeyed and talked with her for four days. rehearsing and celebrating her life. this could also be a possibility as there is no formal day on the jewish calendar.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1534
May 23, 2013
 
Yes KJV you post under several screen names as your poor English reveals.
Lincoln wrote:
<quoted text>The troll posting under still another name.
"Th-th-th-th-that's all, folks!"
Lincoln

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#1535
May 23, 2013
 

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Move along home
only the usual troll posting under a third name.
L0L
Givemeliberty wrote:
Yes KJV you post under several screen names as your poor English reveals.
<quoted text>

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1536
May 23, 2013
 

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So long story short, when we remove your apologetic opinion which starts at a conclusion and works backwards, and go only on what the bible says we clearly see what a burnt offering was and how it was done. The same burnt offering Jephthah vowed and was said to fulfill.

Your apologetic could bes maybes and hope to bes are merely you changing the words to make the myth more palatable for you.

Yahweh in the bible murdered several children and ordered several children to be murdered and you know it.

Even Isaac was to be murdered for his amusement.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>ok, i accept your understanding of the differences between us on this as well as what we agree happened until the conclusion of the jeptha story.
Abraham did not have the levitical law so he had no options nor did he understand that even isaac the son of promise was not an acceptable sacrifice. what he learned was that God did not want isaac as a dead sacrifice but that God would and did provide a substitute. the only human sacrifice that God could accept was the perfect sinless Son of God. isaac was a sinner he could only be sacrificed for himself. however the ram was innocent and died in isaac's place that isaac might go free. that is the picture that forshadows what Christ did for us on calvary's cross. if the "wages of sin is death" and "the soul that sinneth must die" then Christ who "knew no sin" could "become sin for us" and take our place in the condemnation of death "that we might be made the righteousness of God in him".
that would be the foundation of the understanding of sacrifices offered to God.
God's offer of redemption is free and equal to all people. if it actually required the killing of a "spotless [first born male without blemish" lamb every year there would be some people somewhere in some situation that could not do that.
God provided a way even under that system where everyone, rich or poor could participate in the sacrifices. btw, they only applied to the jewish people.
so when we come to jeptha's sacrifice. he had a candidate for the sacrifece that clearly was not going to be acceptable to God. however he had the levitical law and he understood what his options were. so in order to offer a scarifice that was holy and acceptable to God he would have had to take one of the options. otherwise he would have been condemned by God.

now as for your waiting for a passage that says she became a virgin temple servant, i don't claim that that must be what she did. she could have gone and lived alone seperated [holy] from the people as a prophetess, i don't know. however i do know that that word lament in the last verse is translated by some to indicate that the daughters of israel journeyed and talked with her for four days. rehearsing and celebrating her life. this could also be a possibility as there is no formal day on the jewish calendar.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1537
May 23, 2013
 
Next time respond in English please.
Lincoln wrote:
<quoted text>Move along home
only the usual troll posting under a third name.
L0L
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1538
May 23, 2013
 

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Givemeliberty wrote:
So god does not tell him to do it? God doesn't say for him to sacrifice Isaac?
Try genesis 22:1-2
God says to him sacrifice him as a burnt offering.
Now later does god tell him to stop?
Nope an angel comes Yahweh remains silent.
Genesis 22:11 an angel. God is never described as an angel, indeed angels are beneath him remember?
Sad how an atheist has to school you on your own religion. Perhaps you should study the bible before making a blithering jackass out of yourself.
The Abraham myth is nice though because we see Isaac was to be a burnt offering and the Abraham story lays out clearly how a burnt offering was done.
<quoted text>
exodus 3
vs 2 "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:
vs 6 ... he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

Genesis 31
vs 11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
12 And he said,...
vs 13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me:

so, two clear examples of the "angel of the Lord" refering to himself as God himself.
so, i think your theory is a little week.

so, who needs the schooling here?
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1539
May 23, 2013
 

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Givemeliberty wrote:
Not changed a thing. If you read in a newspaper today of a man doing to his family what Abraham had done you would dub that man a monster or a lunatic.
<quoted text>
well, in some places a man can go to jail for simply spanking his child.
however your point is valid. but we don't live anymore under levitical law now do we so i doubt that God would require such a thing.
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1540
May 23, 2013
 

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Givemeliberty wrote:
So long story short, when we remove your apologetic opinion which starts at a conclusion and works backwards, and go only on what the bible says we clearly see what a burnt offering was and how it was done. The same burnt offering Jephthah vowed and was said to fulfill.
Your apologetic could bes maybes and hope to bes are merely you changing the words to make the myth more palatable for you.
Yahweh in the bible murdered several children and ordered several children to be murdered and you know it.
Even Isaac was to be murdered for his amusement.
<quoted text>
there you go again throwing out generalities that can't be discussed because who even knows what you are referring to.
my "apologetic" opinion is based on what the Bible says and nothing else. whether i work backwards or forwards, in this case it has to be backwards since we are arguing the conclusion and not the process, it is always comparing scripture with scripture. if i claim that the Bible says something, i can show it.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

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#1541
May 23, 2013
 

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barry wrote:
<quoted text>maybe you can write something more coherent.
Hebrews 10:8-12
Are these the words of your Jesus?

No?

Heresay, then.

You are just another hypocrite. Like all the rest.
Amused

Buzzards Bay, MA

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#1542
May 23, 2013
 

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Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Are these the words of your Jesus?
No?
Heresay, then.
You are just another hypocrite. Like all the rest.
Glad to see you posting. I know you and Madscot are from Oklahoma, and you've both been in my thoughts since the tornado.
barry

Rainsville, AL

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#1543
May 23, 2013
 
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Are these the words of your Jesus?
No?
Heresay, then.
You are just another hypocrite. Like all the rest.
the Bible interprets its self. you do not view the Bible as the complete and completed word of God inspired by God through his Holy Spirit. therefore you think it is nothing more than hearsay. i understand that. or was that supposed to be heresy?... no couldn't be heresy must have meant hearsay.
i do view the Bible as the completed word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit. therefore i give equal weight to all of its words in their proper context and allow the completes book to interpret its self. don't argue about what the Bible says if you don't want to consider everything that the Bible says on a particular subject.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1544
May 23, 2013
 
You think it's the perfect and inspired word of god? In that case why do you not accept what it says and instead change it? It seems your god could see that his perfect book could explain his message, thoughts an feelings perfectly. In that case you shouldn't need to create apologetic arguments.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>the Bible interprets its self. you do not view the Bible as the complete and completed word of God inspired by God through his Holy Spirit. therefore you think it is nothing more than hearsay. i understand that. or was that supposed to be heresy?... no couldn't be heresy must have meant hearsay.
i do view the Bible as the completed word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit. therefore i give equal weight to all of its words in their proper context and allow the completes book to interpret its self. don't argue about what the Bible says if you don't want to consider everything that the Bible says on a particular subject.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1545
May 23, 2013
 
There are several angels yes?
barry wrote:
<quoted text>exodus 3
vs 2 "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:
vs 6 ... he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

Genesis 31
vs 11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
12 And he said,...
vs 13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me:

so, two clear examples of the "angel of the Lord" refering to himself as God himself.
so, i think your theory is a little week.

so, who needs the schooling here?

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

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#1546
May 23, 2013
 
Yes I am right and I accept your apology. Abraham didn't love under Levitical law either so the rest of your post is fail. And how could you possibly know what god would or wouldn't do unless he is a projection of yourself?

:)
barry wrote:
<quoted text>well, in some places a man can go to jail for simply spanking his child.
however your point is valid. but we don't live anymore under levitical law now do we so i doubt that God would require such a thing.

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