Should Billy Graham's legacy be rescued?

Should Billy Graham's legacy be rescued?

There are 1638 comments on the Q-Notes story from Feb 13, 2013, titled Should Billy Graham's legacy be rescued?. In it, Q-Notes reports that:

President Barack Obama with Rev. Billy Graham at his house in Montreat, N.C., April 25, 2010.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Q-Notes.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#1221 May 10, 2013
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>
Ol' Billy did alright for himself peddling the word of God.
There is big money in religion if you have the charisma.
Billy had it in spades and died a rich man and he was free of scandal.
He was ONLY free from the scandal that was DISCOVERED.

I have no doubts at all, that he was as horrid as the current crop of True Believers™ making much-profit from gullible fools.

“I'm out hunting”

Since: Jan 10

For your mind and soul

#1223 May 10, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>fine, but that doesn't show that she was literally burnt.
1st of all a female anything was not to be offered as a burnt offering. it was contrary to the law. his offering would have been meaningless and rejected by God.[Lev. 22]
2nd of all he had options which would fulfill his vow. she could be redeeemed [$] and set aside as holy.[Lev. 27]
as "holy" she would be restricted from all work and would live a separated life as a virgin.
the context of the story would indicate that that is probably what happened.
3rdly jewish tradition celebrated her for four days every year.
hardly the sad story that you are trying to portray.
"And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her [according] to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man." nowhere does it say that he broke jewish law and burned his daughter. but it does say that that the vow was completed and she never new a man.
You are clearly lying.The text clearly implies that her father was going to offer the first person he saw as a burnt offering. There is no mention of God rejecting that offer.as for the virginity thing, that was a reference to the fact that she was going to die a virgin. She went away for two months to mourn the fact that she was going to die.

“I'm out hunting”

Since: Jan 10

For your mind and soul

#1224 May 10, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>so you wish to isolate the story from the rest of the Bible and then add your understanding to the content of the story as if you were some kind of expert on the keeping or fulfilling of vows.
#1 he made the vow to God. he could not fulfill the vow in any way that would be displeasing to God. [Deut. 12:31;18:10]
human sacrifice was not acceptable to God because there was only one person who would be acceptable in a sacrifice to God.
#2 a burnt offering had to be a male animal.[Lev. 22:19]
#3 a vow could be redeemed but apparently he chose not to because she was fit for the vow only she could not be sacrificed physically in death so she could be set aside and become "holy" to God's service.[Lev. 27]
now as for your claim that There is no evidence of women serving in the temple as virgins you might be correct. but there is evidence that women who separated their lives [became holy] to temple service,
there are the "daughters of shiloh" [Judges 21],
Anna in Luke 2 was set aside or set herself aside to serve in the temple
in exodus 38 women played a role in the tabernacle assembly.
and women again are mentioned in the tabernacle in 1Samuel 2
Your bible contradicts itself all the time. The bible makes it clear that he intended to make a burnt offering. "9 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah… 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD:“If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” 32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands… 34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was his only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried,“Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break.”

The bible then says he did what he vowed to do.
38 So he said,“Go.” Then he sent her away for two months, and she departed, she and her companions, and wept for her virginity on the mountains. 39 And at the end of two months, she returned to her father, who did with her according to his vow that he had made.(Judges 11:29-39)
Since his vow had nothing to do with her virginity, it makes your claim irrelevant.
Imhotep

Riverview, FL

#1225 May 11, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>come on bob admit it, you missed me.
Were you gone?

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#1226 May 11, 2013
Just wanted to ad that his apologetic passages are dealing with separate subjects. His, do not let your child pass through the fire passage is edited, when you read it in it's entirety you see it is talking about sacrificing your child for divination. Jephthah was fulfilling a vow to god which would be the opposite of divination. The women of Israel did not visit her but rather met once a year to lament and mourn retelling the story of her sacrifice.

Funny how apologetics edit parts of their passages away and completely change what others say.
emperorjohn wrote:
<quoted text>Your bible contradicts itself all the time. The bible makes it clear that he intended to make a burnt offering. "9 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah… 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD:“If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” 32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands… 34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was his only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried,“Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break.”

The bible then says he did what he vowed to do.
38 So he said,“Go.” Then he sent her away for two months, and she departed, she and her companions, and wept for her virginity on the mountains. 39 And at the end of two months, she returned to her father, who did with her according to his vow that he had made.(Judges 11:29-39)
Since his vow had nothing to do with her virginity, it makes your claim irrelevant.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#1227 May 11, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
H...
Worse for your claim to work would be saying Jesus was from the same city as Josephus which is insane because if they were from the same city he would have certainly mentioned that fact.
Instead he never mentions Jesus or Nazareth, how do you explain Josephus missing an entire city when it was his job to map out and document the area?
<quoted text>
how do you come to this conclusion? i always understood the josephus was from jeruselm.
http://www.infoplease.com/biography/var/flavi...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus
http://www.nndb.com/people/631/000101328/
barry

Rainsville, AL

#1228 May 11, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Just wanted to ad that his apologetic passages are dealing with separate subjects. His, do not let your child pass through the fire passage is edited, when you read it in it's entirety you see it is talking about sacrificing your child for divination. Jephthah was fulfilling a vow to god which would be the opposite of divination. The women of Israel did not visit her but rather met once a year to lament and mourn retelling the story of her sacrifice.
Funny how apologetics edit parts of their passages away and completely change what others say.
<quoted text>
nice try but wrong. you can't find one passage where God wanted or demanded a human offering sacrificed by fire.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#1229 May 11, 2013
emperorjohn wrote:
<quoted text>You are clearly lying.The text clearly implies that her father was going to offer the first person he saw as a burnt offering. There is no mention of God rejecting that offer.as for the virginity thing, that was a reference to the fact that she was going to die a virgin. She went away for two months to mourn the fact that she was going to die.
you do not understand nor do you accept the parameters concerning burnt offerings. a burnt offering had specific requirements and if a person could not meet those specific requirements then he had options to fulfill the obligation of the offering. all of which did not require any fire or death at all.
that you can and will not accept because it destroys your misconception and any self applied justification for your hatred of God.
you want to argue about the Bible but then you want to reject the Biblical explanations the pertain to the discussion.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#1230 May 11, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
I already answered it-- you are incapable of LEARNING.
A very basic human function, you have ruined by your religious disease.
Sad.
no, you did not answer it. you have not shown where her sacrifice had to be physical death and burning.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#1231 May 11, 2013
Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
Were you gone?
yes, working out of town in another state. i missed a day and it upset them.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#1232 May 11, 2013
emperorjohn wrote:
<quoted text>
Your bible contradicts itself all the time. The bible makes it clear that he intended to make a burnt offering. "9 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah… 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD:“If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” 32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands… 34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was his only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried,“Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break.”
The bible then says he did what he vowed to do.
38 So he said,“Go.” Then he sent her away for two months, and she departed, she and her companions, and wept for her virginity on the mountains. 39 And at the end of two months, she returned to her father, who did with her according to his vow that he had made.(Judges 11:29-39)
Since his vow had nothing to do with her virginity, it makes your claim irrelevant.
you're right it really had nothing to do with her virginity apart from the fact that jepthah who had no heritage now was not going to have any lineage to carry on his legacy.
and doing what he vowed to do would simply mean that he fulfilled the requirements of how she could be offered. he could have bought out of it and it would not have been counted against him but he chose to fulfill the vow of the offering. however the offering would have been no good and would have been condemned by God if he actually slew her and burnt her.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#1233 May 11, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
He was ONLY free from the scandal that was DISCOVERED.
I have no doubts at all, that he was as horrid as the current crop of True Believers™ making much-profit from gullible fools.
no doubts and no proof either. but then you have difficulty proving a lot of things that you say.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#1234 May 11, 2013
See this is why you need to go take a class a real class and not the apologetic church version. Josephus home town was Japhia which he wrote about extensively.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>how do you come to this conclusion? i always understood the josephus was from jeruselm.
http://www.infoplease.com/biography/var/flavi...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus
http://www.nndb.com/people/631/000101328/

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#1235 May 11, 2013
Isaac.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>nice try but wrong. you can't find one passage where God wanted or demanded a human offering sacrificed by fire.
harpocrates

Williamsburg, KY

#1236 May 11, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Isaac.
<quoted text>
actually, many culture pass their animals and family through the fire.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10... regarding the first instance of passing/sacrificing something by passing it through fire

the following shows the reference made to leviticus 18:21

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/transla...

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/l...

sacrifices don't have to be literal killings of something.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#1237 May 11, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Where did I say she couldn't be one because of his grief? Now you are writing GML fan fiction!
What was his vow barely? Was it a burnt offering? Pretty sure it was a burnt offering. Wanna go double check that it was a burnt offering? Go ahead. Right so his vow was for a burnt offering. Glad we got that firmly established.
Now yes or no does the bible day he kept his vow? Does the the bible say he kept his vow? Hmmm yes why right there! It says he kept his vow and wait, what was the vow that he kept?
Burnt offering.
Your fan fiction about where this burnt offering went to work might be fun for avid readers of fan fiction but I'll stick with what the bible actually says. He promised a burnt offering, tore his clothes when he saw it would be his daughter, have her two months to mourn and then kept his vow.
1: Your personal opinion, Yahweh would have been more interested in him keeping his vow after receiving help in war.
2: She was the proper subject for the vow made. Jephthah didn't say the first proper subject for sacrifice that comes out of my house, again your fan fiction means nothing.
3: Burnt offerings were done by all Hebrews not just priests and his vow in a desperate time of war would have superseded any such etiquette anyways.
4: what law was that? The main law was for them to reproduce and grow the population. Even if there was some obscure law it never says he took that route anyways. It says he made a vow for a burnt offering and later he fulfilled that vow even as painful as it was. You admitted yourself there is not a single passage saying virgin girls were given the honor of living out their lives working at the temple. Even if there were that isn't much of a price to pay for Yahweh's help in war is it?
5: Jephthah was honored for his painful sacrifice of a burnt offering to Yahweh. No religious historian or artist ever suggested his daughter wasn't a burnt offering until the 18th century.
Oh and the daughters of Israel mourned her sacrifice lamented it you idiot! There was no celebration are you a sociopath?
<quoted text>
where? Givemeliberty wrote:
"All I am doing is showing what the bible clearly illustrates. You are tap dancing around what it clearly says, trying to mix in unrelated passages and even making up your own passages saying she went to work in the most glorious beautiful building in the land!( some sacrifice eh? After that all the dads would be doing the same thing at the begging of their daughters!)"

seems to me you are saying that the dads of israel would be enlisting their daughters for such an honor so there would be no grief involved.

your understanding of the word lament is limited to your understanding of today's english.
it is translated from the hebrew word "tanah" which by definition is to "attribute honor" "to ascribe praise" that is "celebrate and commemorate"
it is also translated rehearse as in;
Judges 5:11
They that are delivered from the noise of archers in the places of drawing water, there shall they rehearse the righteous acts of the Lord, even the righteous acts toward the inhabitants of his villages in Israel: then shall the people of the Lord go down to the gates.
"Strong's Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary"

as far as i can tell "tanah" is only used these two times in the Bible and it really has little to do with mourning but more of remembering and celebrating.
so until you understand the word that produced the translated word "lament" then in context there really is not a lot of sorrow but rather a celebration of her faithfulness.
barry

Rainsville, AL

#1238 May 11, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Isaac.
<quoted text>
good, did God accept the offering or did he provide a substitute an alternative?
barry

Rainsville, AL

#1239 May 11, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
See this is why you need to go take a class a real class and not the apologetic church version. Josephus home town was Japhia which he wrote about extensively.
<quoted text>
you might be right, i was just trusting sources non of which were apologetic. maybe you can help us/me out and post a source that agrees with you. i like being right so if i am wrong i will make the adjustment.
harpocrates

Williamsburg, KY

#1240 May 11, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>you might be right, i was just trusting sources non of which were apologetic. maybe you can help us/me out and post a source that agrees with you. i like being right so if i am wrong i will make the adjustment.
all defense responses, pertaining to any subject, are apologetic.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#1241 May 11, 2013
Abraham was to kill his son Isaac as ordered by Yahweh.
harpocrates wrote:
<quoted text>actually, many culture pass their animals and family through the fire.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10... regarding the first instance of passing/sacrificing something by passing it through fire

the following shows the reference made to leviticus 18:21

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/transla...

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/l...

sacrifices don't have to be literal killings of something.

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