Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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Since: Sep 10

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#183491
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Buck Crick wrote:
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Your source has succumbed to revisionism. That is not the accepted academic meaning of the term.
Atheism, from the Greek a-theos ("no-god"), is the philosophical position that God doesn't exist. It is distinguished from agnosticism, the argument that it is impossible to know whether God exists or not (Academic American Encyclopedia).
Atheism, system of thought developed around the denial of God's existence. Atheism, so defined, first appeared during the Enlightenment, the age of reason (Random House Encyclopedia-1977).
Atheism is the doctrine that there is no God.(Oxford Companion to Philosophy-1995).
Atheism (Greek, a-[private prefix]+ theos, god) is the view that there is no divine being, no God (Dictionary of Philosophy, Thomas Mautner, Editor-1996).
Atheism is the belief that God doesn't exist (The World Book Encyclopedia-1991).
Atheism, commonly speaking, is the denial of God. Theism (from the Greek theos, God) is belief in or conceptualization of God, atheism is the rejection of such belief or conceptualization.In the ancient world atheism was rarely a clearly formulated position (Encyclopedia Americana-1990).
Atheism, the critique and denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or spiritual beings. Atheism is to be distinguished from agnosticism, which leaves open whether there is a god or not, professing to find the question unanswerable, for the atheist, the non-existence of god is a certainty (The New Encyclopedia Britannia-1993).
According to the most usual definition, an atheist is a person who maintains that there is no godÖ(rejects eccentric definitions of the word)(The Encyclopedia of Philosophy-1967).
Atheism is the doctrine that God does not exist, that belief in the existence of God is a false belief. The word God here refers to a divine being regarded as the independent creator of the world, a being superlatively powerful, wise and good (Encyclopedia of Religion-1987).
Atheism (Greek and Roman): Atheism is a dogmatic creed, consisting in the denial of every kind of supernatural power. Atheism has not often been seriously maintained at any period of civilized thought (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics-Vol II).
Atheism denies the existence of deity (Funk and Wagnall's New Encyclopedia-Vol I).
You made your point.

It doesn't sell.

Let's move on, OK?
Eagle 12

Troy, IL

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#183492
Nov 11, 2013
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Agree again.
The entire Sermon on the Mount is slave ethics - a set of instructions from the ruling class to the peasant class on how to think and behave as they are being exploited and discriminated against. Let's look:
Blessed, supposedly, are the poor in spirit, those who mourn, the meek, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, the merciful, the pure in heart and the peacemakers. I find nothing wise or comforting in admonitions to be poor of spirit or meek. Be robust of spirit and as assertive as the situation requires. Meekness is not a virtue. Humility, perhaps, but not meekness. That's just a poverty of spirit.
Who wants you to accept being dispirited, tolerating grief, not asserting yourself, honest to them, forgiving of them and pacifistic with them? Who benefits if, when I punch you, you don't retaliate, defend yourself or even walk away? The bosses, who don't want you tolerating injustice rather than seeking justice. Put that cheek right out there again, will ya? No, not quite like that - turn it a little more. Great. Thanks ...[Whack!]
Let's look at that cheek business a little closer. What kind of bad advice is this? The kind masters give slaves. Obviously, Christian morality is really all about being made docile and compliant - submissive. Doesn't sticking your face out there really incite further violence as I suggested? Even if you weren't going to use them, putting up your fists says, "don't hit me again." Jutting your cheek out there says the opposite.
People who care about you, like you father and mother, teach you how to defend yourself when necessary, to try to negotiate an understanding when possible, or walk away. Who else but the rich and powerful would teach people who have been hit in the cheek to show the other cheek and take a second blow?
In the early days of American History conflicts were routinely resolved by killing your opponent. It looks like we as a nation have gone back to our roots. When the safest and appropriate action to take is walk away from a potential violent conflict.

That advice can even be applied in abusive relationships. Get out of the violence situation at all cost and donít add to it. Itís not easy to do but itís the most wisest course one can make.

Often times people donít take into account the cost of what theyíre going to do. And that cost can be very high. Conflict resolution should be taught in every school in America. Thereís wisdom in turning the other cheek.

Of course a man or woman has the right to defend themselves. But that defense can turn deadly so avoidance is always the best choice.
Eagle 12

Troy, IL

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#183493
Nov 11, 2013
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Agree again.
The entire Sermon on the Mount is slave ethics - a set of instructions from the ruling class to the peasant class on how to think and behave as they are being exploited and discriminated against. Let's look:
Blessed, supposedly, are the poor in spirit, those who mourn, the meek, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, the merciful, the pure in heart and the peacemakers. I find nothing wise or comforting in admonitions to be poor of spirit or meek. Be robust of spirit and as assertive as the situation requires. Meekness is not a virtue. Humility, perhaps, but not meekness. That's just a poverty of spirit.
Who wants you to accept being dispirited, tolerating grief, not asserting yourself, honest to them, forgiving of them and pacifistic with them? Who benefits if, when I punch you, you don't retaliate, defend yourself or even walk away? The bosses, who don't want you tolerating injustice rather than seeking justice. Put that cheek right out there again, will ya? No, not quite like that - turn it a little more. Great. Thanks ...[Whack!]
Let's look at that cheek business a little closer. What kind of bad advice is this? The kind masters give slaves. Obviously, Christian morality is really all about being made docile and compliant - submissive. Doesn't sticking your face out there really incite further violence as I suggested? Even if you weren't going to use them, putting up your fists says, "don't hit me again." Jutting your cheek out there says the opposite.
People who care about you, like you father and mother, teach you how to defend yourself when necessary, to try to negotiate an understanding when possible, or walk away. Who else but the rich and powerful would teach people who have been hit in the cheek to show the other cheek and take a second blow?
Take a extended tour in some our worst prisons. Youíll see the opposite of the sermon on the Mount.

Since: Sep 10

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#183494
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
More Than 9 in 10 Americans Continue to Believe in God
by Frank Newport
PRINCETON, NJ -- "More than 9 in 10 Americans still say "yes" when asked the basic question "Do you believe in God?"; this is down only slightly from the 1940s, when Gallup first asked this question."
They also believe there's a devil.

Please tell me you're not one of them.

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#183495
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Eagle 12 wrote:
<quoted text>
I also believe there has been an exodus from faith in Europe. I donít have a lot of nice things to say about European Churches or Europe in general. It would be the last place in earth I would go and visit. If I did I would make the focal point of my trip visiting our war graves.
They can have their cold dark dingy castles and their godlessness. I must admit France was nice enough to give us lady liberty.
Where does it matter the geographical place one is born, or one lives. are we not all of the same human species, living on the only planet to sustain the diversity of life as we know it. Is it not time mankind get over our piety differences and understand we have more in common than different. My friend, I would like to travel around the world on my bike, to experience the beauty and diversity of the life on our planet and other cultures , without fear of being hated, and despised for what I look like or where I'm from, how I think.I could not even travel the USA freely,and I am native American.I see no difference from the teacher,in north America, Europe, Africa, Asia,India,south America the middle east. I see no difference in the way we express our love for family and community.Yet we still live in fear of each other.Why ?

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Nov 11, 2013
 

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ďLook again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.Ē
&#8213; Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot
:http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=2pfwY2TNehw
EdSed

Hamilton, UK

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#183497
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
More Than 9 in 10 Americans Continue to Believe in God
by Frank Newport
PRINCETON, NJ -- "More than 9 in 10 Americans still say "yes" when asked the basic question "Do you believe in God?"; this is down only slightly from the 1940s, when Gallup first asked this question."
Yes, but Pew figures generally seem to suggest greater levels of superstition than the Gallop ones and even the Pew survey found 'decreasing religiosity'. I'd say that means decreasing levels of superstitious beliefs in gods. Generally, I think there are signs of improvement in the USA.

Many of those who still profess belief in god(s) now seem to subscribe to an amorphous, vague, initial 'creator'. Some of these 'nones' and agnostics don't even believe in an interventionist entity, much less one that is Abrahamic. Even LCNLin doesn't claim to be religious anymore.

I think that is the way it often goes. First, obviously silly Abrahamic gods and these ones...
godchecker.com
are rejected. Then increasing numbers realise there's no evidence of an interventionist god of any description or definition. Then, it is a small step to reality.

It took many years to overcome the acceptability of slavery in parts of the USA. Women's rights, anti-gay prejudice, etc, it all took time to overcome. I think religion is the last major bastion of superstition and we're looking at a gradual process of abandonment of it, not an event.

Established deities like the Abrahamic god(s) and its associated religions seem to be the ones losing out to the 'nones' and rationalists.

Religion = superstition

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#183498
Nov 11, 2013
 

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EdSed wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, but Pew figures generally seem to suggest greater levels of superstition than the Gallop ones and even the Pew survey found 'decreasing religiosity'. I'd say that means decreasing levels of superstitious beliefs in gods. Generally, I think there are signs of improvement in the USA.
Many of those who still profess belief in god(s) now seem to subscribe to an amorphous, vague, initial 'creator'. Some of these 'nones' and agnostics don't even believe in an interventionist entity, much less one that is Abrahamic. Even LCNLin doesn't claim to be religious anymore.
I think that is the way it often goes. First, obviously silly Abrahamic gods and these ones...
godchecker.com
are rejected. Then increasing numbers realise there's no evidence of an interventionist god of any description or definition. Then, it is a small step to reality.
It took many years to overcome the acceptability of slavery in parts of the USA. Women's rights, anti-gay prejudice, etc, it all took time to overcome. I think religion is the last major bastion of superstition and we're looking at a gradual process of abandonment of it, not an event.
Established deities like the Abrahamic god(s) and its associated religions seem to be the ones losing out to the 'nones' and rationalists.
Religion = superstition
The Romans regarded Christianity as superstitious. But they believed in gods.

Don't confuse religiousness with belief in the supernatural. The first is just an organized and orthodox belief.

If you knock on wood or "just know" you are going to win the lottery, or even a poker hand, then you believe in the supernatural.
blacklagoon

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#183499
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Eagle 12 wrote:
<quoted text>
These polls only sample .02% of the US population. Accuracy is in question.
That is great news thanks. If only .02% of the population was sampled and registered a 15% increase in one year, then extrapolating that percentage means that a larger number have turned against your demon God. Pew research polls are known for there accuracy.
EdSed

Hamilton, UK

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#183500
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
The Romans regarded Christianity as superstitious. But they believed in gods.
Don't confuse religiousness with belief in the supernatural. The first is just an organized and orthodox belief.
If you knock on wood or "just know" you are going to win the lottery, or even a poker hand, then you believe in the supernatural.
Religionists confuse 'religiousness' with all sorts of things, but the fact is that mainstream religions associate themeselves with belief in god(s). There's no confusion in my post.

And believing that a god sent a prophet to Earth or that we know 'what Jesus said' isn't as orthodox as it is ignorant -(or superstitious :-)

Religion = superstition
LCNLin

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#183501
Nov 11, 2013
 

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blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>That is great news thanks. If only .02% of the population was sampled and registered a 15% increase in one year, then extrapolating that percentage means that a larger number have turned against your demon God. Pew research polls are known for there accuracy.
...soon we may have a half-time score
;-)
he thinks it is "a mumbo jumbo" atheistic sporting event?

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#183502
Nov 11, 2013
 

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ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
You still seem to have the wrong idea of atheism, you are falling for the usual of relating it to your personal experience of theism, however whereas theism is a belief, atheism is a non belief. Note that modifier Ė non.
Perhaps a stance that you are unable to comprehend, who knows? That of course would explain why you argue that atheism is a belief
As I have said before atheism is as much belief as not collecting stamps is a hobby
The claim that no gods exist can only be rebutted by providing evidence to the contrary. Up to now, in several thousand years of god worship, no such evidence has been forthcoming. But there are people still waiting so donít give up hope just yet.
Buck doesn't recognize the concept of weak atheism.
Anon

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Nov 11, 2013
 

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This really has my blood boiling. Atheist mega-churches? Who are these idiots, and more importantly, why is this catching on? They're playing the same game as organized religion, right down to the collection plate. I shouldn't really be surprised, given enough time humans eventually screw everything up. I haven't been this pissed in years...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/201...
EdSed

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#183504
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Anon wrote:
This really has my blood boiling. Atheist mega-churches? Who are these idiots, and more importantly, why is this catching on? They're playing the same game as organized religion, right down to the collection plate. I shouldn't really be surprised, given enough time humans eventually screw everything up. I haven't been this pissed in years...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/201...
You misunderstand.

From:
http://news.discovery.com/human/life/atheist-...
"Officially named The Sunday Assembly, the church was the brainchild of Pippa Evans and Sanderson Jones, two comedians who suspected there might be an appetite for atheist gatherings that borrowed a few aspects of religious worship".

It is partly a joke (Atheist Church - get it?) and partly an opportunity for the non-religious to meet like-minded people. It is as innocent and irreligious as a British Humanist Association meeting.(Some non-believers aren't attracted by current humanist meetings).
LCNLin

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#183505
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Atheist "church" seems a positive idea for atheists to meet and enjoy each others fellowship !

An "atheist church" in North London is proving a big hit with non-believers. Does it feel a bit like a new religion?

Not many sermons include the message that we are all going to die and there is no afterlife.

But the Sunday Assembly is no ordinary church service.

Launched last month, as a gathering for non-believers, it is, in the words of master of ceremonies Sanderson Jones, "part foot-stomping show, part atheist church, all celebration of life".

A congregation of more than 300 crowded into the shell of a deconsecrated church to join the celebration on Sunday morning.

Instead of hymns, the non-faithful get to their feet to sing along to Stevie Wonder and Queen songs.

There is a reading from Alice in Wonderland and a power-point presentation from a particle physicist, Dr Harry Cliff, who explains the origins of antimatter theory.

It feels like a stand-up comedy show. Jones and co-founder Pippa Evans trade banter and whip the crowd up like the veterans of the stand-up circuit that they are.

But there are more serious moments.

The theme of the morning is "wonder" - a reaction, explains Jones, to criticism that atheists lack a sense of it.

So we bow our heads for two minutes of contemplation about the miracle of life and, in his closing sermon, Jones speaks about how the death of his mother influenced his own spiritual journey and determination to get the most out of every second, aware that life is all too brief and nothing comes after it.

The audience - overwhelmingly young, white and middle class - appear excited to be part of something new and speak of the void they felt on a Sunday morning when they decided to abandon their Christian faith. Few actively identify themselves as atheists.

"It's a nice excuse to get together and have a bit of a community spirit but without the religion aspect," says Jess Bonham, a photographer.

"It's not a church, it's a congregation of unreligious people."

Another attendee, Gintare Karalyte, says: "I think people need that sense of connectedness because everyone is so singular right now, and to be part of something, and to feel like you are part of something. That's what people are craving in the world."

The number of people declaring themselves to be of "no religion" in England and Wales has increased by more than six million since 2001 to 14.1 million, according to the latest census. That makes England and Wales two of the most unreligious nations in the Western world.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21319945
EdSed

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#183506
Nov 11, 2013
 

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LCNLin wrote:
....The audience - overwhelmingly young, white and middle class - appear excited to be part of something new and speak of the void they felt on a Sunday morning when they decided to abandon their Christian faith. Few actively identify themselves as atheists....
I don't 'actively identify as atheist'.'Atheist' tends to be what the religous call non-believers.

And the white middle-class bit might be partly due to the nature of the organiser's comedy and the location of the first meeting(s).

I think the Atheist Assemblies need to be seen in the context of such groups. In the UK there are Atheist Associations, Rationalist ones, Skeptics-in-the-Pub, Freethinkers, Student groups (like the AHS), Secularists,(e.g the quite irreligious National Secular Soctiety), Humanist groups, etc,- horses for courses.

All good fun and quite godless. As I've said before, I think Jonny Eve sums up the approach of many Brits nicely...
http://www.atheismuk.com/2012/03/31/atheism/y...
(if a bit coursely :-)
Anon

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#183507
Nov 11, 2013
 

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EdSed wrote:
<quoted text>You misunderstand.
From:
http://news.discovery.com/human/life/atheist-...
"Officially named The Sunday Assembly, the church was the brainchild of Pippa Evans and Sanderson Jones, two comedians who suspected there might be an appetite for atheist gatherings that borrowed a few aspects of religious worship".
It is partly a joke (Atheist Church - get it?) and partly an opportunity for the non-religious to meet like-minded people. It is as innocent and irreligious as a British Humanist Association meeting.(Some non-believers aren't attracted by current humanist meetings).
Wish I could agree with you, but I can't. A door has been thrown open that should have remained nailed shut. We categorize Christian followers as "sheeple". What clever name will we apply to the atheist wannabees as they attend "classes" and sing "awesome songs" as the article states. Oh my, what fun! Losers...
EdSed

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#183508
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coarsely - (I know :-)

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

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#183509
Nov 11, 2013
 

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LCNLin wrote:
<quoted text>
...As Richard Dawkins discovered when he left atheism for agnostic beliefs ...
What?
Eagle 12

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#183510
Nov 11, 2013
 

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Anon wrote:
This really has my blood boiling. Atheist mega-churches? Who are these idiots, and more importantly, why is this catching on? They're playing the same game as organized religion, right down to the collection plate. I shouldn't really be surprised, given enough time humans eventually screw everything up. I haven't been this pissed in years...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/201...
Alright, the religion of Atheism. Make sure you give a hearty offering so the church leader can drive a nice expensive Bentley, have a mansion, plush vacations six months of the year, and a private jet.

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