Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#182146 Oct 31, 2013
THE PRICE OF CHRISTIANITY – THE HARM
http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/T0N0LOR...

Religious zealotry over the centuries has been directly responsible for countless deaths, imprisonments, needless suffering, torturings, and the oppression of people on grounds of sex, race, colour, sexuality or belief. A few obvious examples :

• The Crusades.

• The Inquisition.

• Witch trials in Europe and America.

• The Divine right of Kings (valid until killed by another Divinely-appointed King).

• Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, "heathen" religions and cultures.

• The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans ("They're devil-worshippers!"), the Romans demonizing Christians ("They're atheists and cannibals!").

• Persecution of Heretics - e.g. Galileo for daring to suggest that the Earth orbits the Sun.

• Children dying because their parents refused them medical treatment on religious grounds; relying
instead on faith-healers and prayer.

• Slavery, supposedly supported by scripture ("Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, just as you would obey Christ.", St.Paul, Ephesians 6:5)

• Holy wars - followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.

• The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.

• Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought.

• Persecution/punishment of blasphemers (Salman Rushdie still has a death sentence on him), and blasphemy laws in general.

• The requirement of theism in order to stand for public office or to testify in court.

• Serial killers believing they are doing the work of Satan (or sometimes Jesus).

• Often-fatal exorcisms by priests believing they are destroying the work of Satan.

• People suffering dreadful injury or death in the belief that their faith has made them invulnerable (e.g. people climbing into lion enclosures at zoos, with a Bible as protection).

• Whole societies divided by minor differences in belief or doctrine, often resulting in violence.

• Mass suicides of cult-members following a charismatic leader who believes the world is about to End (most recently, the Heaven's Gate and Solar Temple cults - there will be more as we approach the year 2000).

• The attempted genocide of followers of a particular faith (e.g. the Jewish Holocaust, "ethnic cleansing" in former Yugoslavia).

• Blood sacrifices to appease the Gods, or to ensure a good harvest.(The Aztecs made daily human sacrifices to ensure that the Sun would rise. Or did they?)

• The practice of "female circumcision" (more accurately termed genital mutilation).

• The discouragement of rational, critical thought (resulting in young-earth creationists, for example).

• Uncontrolled population growth caused (or at least helped) by churches prohibiting birth-control and abortion.(You can also add : unwanted pregnancies, ill-fated forced marriages, and pregnant teenagers condemned to a life in mental institutions to avoid embarrassing their families.)

• The spread of sexually transmitted diseases (e.g. AIDS) due to churches prohibiting the use of condoms.

• Believers whipping, impaling, poisoning or crucifying themselves during religious festivals as a demonstration of their faith and piety.

• Suicide bombers taught to believe that martyrs go straight to Paradise.

• The indoctrination of children into the religion of their parents, giving them an arbitrary, life-long belief that is almost entirely dependent on their place of birth.

• Women treated as second-class citizens or even slaves (article : Islam's Shame).

• Pentecostal snake-handlers (Augusta Chronicle news article)

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“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#182147 Oct 31, 2013
• Persecution of homosexuals (Genocide of gay and lesbian youth)

• Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children).

• Vilification of homosexuality, resulting in discrimination, parents disowning their children, murder, and suicide.

• People and animals sacrificed as an offering to gods.

• Food destroyed because it doesn't comply with specific religious beliefs.

• Women treated like second class citizens, or even slaves, based on religious teachings.

• Children growing up without music.

• Children growing up to hate and fear science and scientists, because science disproves their parents' religion - leading to appalling scientific illiteracy.

• Tens of thousands tortured and killed as witches (a practice which still continues today).

• Millions of cats killed in the belief that witches use them as familiars, leaving rats free to spread the black death throughout Europe, killing millions of people in turn.

• People bothered and sometimes woken up by door-to-door religion salespeople.

• People dying because they believe their faith makes them immune to snake venom, or other lethal aspects of reality.

• People dying - and letting their children die - because their religion forbids accepting medical help.

• People choked, starved, poisoned, or beaten to death during exorcisms.

• Female genital mutilation endorsed by religious texts.

• Psychological and physiological conditions blamed on demons, preventing believers from seeking medical care.

• People disowning family members for leaving their religion, in some cases symbolized by mock funerals.

• Friendships and romances severed or never started over religious differences.

• "Abstinence-only" sex education, resulting in five times the amount sexually transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies - often leading to ill-fated "emergency" marriages.

• Campaigns against safe sex, with similar results - responsible for much of the AIDS epidemic in Africa.

• Women having septic abortions -- or being forced to have unwanted children they resent -- because religious organizations have gotten laws passed making abortion illegal or inaccessible.

• Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought.

• The discouragement of rational, critical thought.

• Believers whipping, impaling, poisoning or crucifying themselves during religious festivals as a demonstration of their faith and piety.

• Children spending the period of their lives when the brain is most receptive to learning new information reading, rereading, and even memorizing religious texts.

• People who believe the world is about to end neglect their education, are not financially responsible, and in extreme cases take part in mass suicides.

• Environmental issues ignored because of beliefs that God will magically fix everything.

• Wives told they will be tortured forever if they leave their abusive husbands.

• People in times of trouble relying on advice from religious leaders without any sort of training in counseling or therapy.

• Holy wars - followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.

• The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.

• Persecution/punishment of blasphemers (Salman Rushdie still has a death sentence on him), and blasphemy laws in general.

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“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#182148 Oct 31, 2013
• Slavery condoned by religious texts.

• Children traumatized by vivid stories of eternal burning and torture to ensure that they'll be too frightened to even question religion.

• Terminal patients in constant agony who would end their lives if they didn't believe it would result in eternal torture.

• School boards having to spend time and money and resources on the fight to have evolution taught in the schools.

• Persecution of Heretics/scientists, like Giordano Bruno (burned at the stake) and Galileo Galilei.

• Blue laws forcing other businesses to stay closed so churches can generate more revenue.

• Mayors, senators, and presidents voted into office not because they're right for the job, but because of their religious beliefs.

• Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children)- but hey, atheists are the immoral ones.

• People accepting visual and auditory hallucinations unquestioningly as divine, sometimes with fatal results.

• Suicide bombers, who are certain they will be rewarded in heaven.

• Discrimination against atheists, such as laws stating they may not hold public office or testify in court.

• Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, "heathen" religions and cultures.

• Hardship compounded by the guilt required to reconcile the idea of a fair god with reality ("why is God punishing me? What have I done wrong? Don't I have enough faith?").

• Human achievements - from skillful surgery to to emergency landings - attributed to gods instead of to the people actually responsible.

• Mother Teresa, prolonging the agony of terminal patients and denying them pain relief, so she can offer their suffering as a gift to her god.

• Suppression of logical and critical thought.

• Billions spent to build, maintain, and staff houses of worship.

• Grief and horror caused by the belief that dead friends and family members are tortured as punishment for disbelief.

• Opposition to scientific (especially medical) progress on religious grounds.

• Whole societies divided by minor differences in belief or doctrine, often resulting in violence.

• Natural disasters and other tragedies used to claim God is displeased and present demands to avoid similar events (it's like terrorism, but without having to plan or do anything).

• The attempted genocide of followers of a particular faith (e.g. the Jewish Holocaust, "ethnic cleansing" in former Yugoslavia).

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UIdiotRACEMAKEWO RLDPEACE

United States

#182149 Oct 31, 2013
post from
this poster: "wordofme

“Darwin was right”

Since: Jun 11

5,960



|
#669203
40 min ago

Really scary article about Tea Party darling, Senator Ted Cruz.

“In a sermon last year at an Irving, Texas, megachurch that helped elect Ted Cruz to the U.S. Senate, Cruz’ father Rafael Cruz indicated that his son was among the evangelical Christians who are anointed as “kings” to take control of all sectors of society, an agenda commonly referred to as the “Seven Mountains” mandate, and “bring the spoils of war to the priests”, thus helping to bring about a prophesied “great transfer of wealth”, from the “wicked” to righteous gentile believers.” Read more at:
http://disinfo.com/2013/10/ted-cruzs-father-p ...

They are Christian Dominionist and they also believe that their sect of Christianity should rule the United States (and probably the world) and the Old Testament should be the basis of all laws.

These evangelical fundamentalist crackpot Christians are really dangerous and will not stop trying to launch their evil agenda on society.

“Cruz spoke of “Kings who are anointed to go to war, win the war, and bring the spoils of war to the priests.” Discussion of the now-notorious speech by Rafael Cruz has missed the fact that Ted Cruz was subsequently blessed and anointed by prominent dominionist pastors, in effect as a “king” in the political/governmental sphere, at a special blessing ceremony at the Marriott Hotel in Des Moines, Iowa, at a July 19th-20th 2013 rally designed to draw pastors into politics.“

Watch out for this guy

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#182150 Oct 31, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
He can't make a distinction between water and snow, do you really think he has ANY shot at making a distinction between selfsame, identical, equivalent, and equal? Try hot and cold, he just might have a shot at that.
LOL.

Cold and hot must be the same thing, since one can be converted to the other like snow and water, and in exactly the same way: by warming.

You seafaring sorts - you, Macumazahn and Aura have been doing a bang up job on the nautical stuff. I've learned from you all, and have even been motivated to learn a little more on my own: masts, yards, spars, gaffs and booms, for starters. And square rigging vs. fore-and-aft (windjammers vs. schooners, bermuda rigged vs. gaff rigged) as well as a few types of sails (spankers, spinnakers, jibs and lateen). It began with somebody's comments about the difference between boat and a ship.

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“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#182151 Oct 31, 2013
Oops! I left all of this out from explainingthose three lengthy pasts detailing some of the harm of religion:
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>Good points. When someone ask's what harm does religion do, just site these examples. "Religion poisons everything."
Here's some material I collected from various resources, much from the link provided. It's a useful list, so I've reposted all of it for those that care to copy it to their files.

THE PRICE OF CHRISTIANITY – THE HARM
http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/T0N0LOR...

Religious zealotry over the centuries has been ...

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“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#182152 Oct 31, 2013
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>
We have the same rights to express our thoughts freely, too. It's not a one way street.
Not according to many of the faithful. People like Dave Nelson despise unbelievers for the audacity of expressing that opinion.

Robert Stevens informed us here a few days ago that it's rude to challenge faith, although he had no problem lambasitng skepticism.

A Christian says Merry Christmas and considers it an act of good cheer. A non-Christian says Happy Holidays and is accused of waging a war on Christmas.

I have been posting on Why Should Jesus Love Me for most of a year as one of an infusion of skeptics that got bored with Prove There Is A God and last winter and transitioned over. We have been repeatedly referred to as invaders who are there just to disrupt the Christian goodness, as if the thread belonged to them, or that what they were doing there was better than what we do.

I call it Christian exceptionalism - the sense of self-goodness and other-badness that justifies the double standard.

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“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#182153 Oct 31, 2013
Eagle 12 wrote:
<quoted text>
This was taken from a children’s learning web page.
Water: liquid, solid and gas
Water is a liquid.
When it freezes it is ice.
Ice is solid water.
When water gets hot it turns into vapour.
We call it steam, and it is a gas.
We can see water in three different ways: liquid, solid, gas.
http://www.kidcyber.com.au/topics/waterstates...
http://www.kidcyber.com.au/topics/waterstates...


Is there a point here worth quibbling over. I think we all know the physics. You're arguing nomenclature - whether the word water can apply to H2O in all of its phases or needs qualifying in the solid and gaseous states. These are sterile discussions.

The obvious fact is that floods and snow accumulation are very different things, and trying to defend a biblical account of the submerging of mountains by referring to snowfall on them is what you do when you have an impossible story that you have embraced by faith and are trying to justify to people that require reason.

We call it apologetics, and it accounts for some of the most creative and entertaining material to come from believers dealing. Just witnessing the intellectual gymnastics involved in stretching the truth, twisting meanings, straining credulity, and jumping to conclusions is exhausting.

"When the philosopher's argument becomes tedious, complicated, and opaque, it is usually a sign that he is attempting to prove as true to the intellect what is plainly false to common sense”- Edward Abbey

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Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#182154 Oct 31, 2013
BenAdam wrote:
<quoted text>
<part two>
The errors and contradictions show far more than that. That is why IMHO people who take "The Bible" as the "Perfect Word of God" miss the entire (inspired) point of the various texts it contains.
That is a view shared by many Christians, probably most. Christianity has become an ethos more than the religion these fundamentalist minded Topix atheists who have been infused with that same ethos shriek at. I've pointed out many times how they are more like dissidents trying to form their own sect.

They need to mellow out and get their own issues worked out.

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Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#182155 Oct 31, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
I have never had any power except over my own life, and even that is partial as you note. I was never a player or a god. Power and influence don't interest me beyond control over my own life, and to be respected by the people I respect.
Thanks for your interest in our "energy source" and "reserves," by which I presume you mean our savings and cash flow, but fortunately, money is not an issue. We have saved, we have no debt, we live humbly, and we are satisfied with what we have.
It's been a good life, and has never been better than it is now. Life is easy, full, and beautiful. We are very happy, and I am very grateful for all of the good luck and help I have had along the way. But you know all of that already. We've discussed our lives before.
Why would you want to hurt me? Because I criticize organized religion and faith based thought? Because I'm happy?
If you were so happy and fulfilled you wouldn't be on here acting like a smarmy college pseudo-intellectual who thinks needling others for their belief is a life's work.

You need something to do. A focus. You need to get back in the traces again, but in something fulfilling. Maybe a seminary.

Getting up everyday with nothing to do but what you want to do can get old. Especially when you really have nothing to do. Called going in circles. Leads to Topix addiction.

You were a palliative care specialist? That is getting comfortably numb and staying that way? Perhaps you should not have taken a dose of your own medicine.:-)

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#182156 Oct 31, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
If you were so happy and fulfilled you wouldn't be on here acting like a smarmy college pseudo-intellectual who thinks needling others for their belief is a life's work.
You need something to do. A focus. You need to get back in the traces again, but in something fulfilling. Maybe a seminary.
Getting up everyday with nothing to do but what you want to do can get old. Especially when you really have nothing to do. Called going in circles. Leads to Topix addiction.
<The Dave Nelson> "....!?...I just described myself..."

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#182157 Oct 31, 2013
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
<The Dave Nelson> "....!?...I just described myself..."
I won't argue with you on that. I have experience in the matter.

Glad to see you don't spend TOO much time on here. You must have something to do.

Go do it. Please.

:-)

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#182158 Oct 31, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
If you were so happy and fulfilled you wouldn't be on here acting like a smarmy college pseudo-intellectual who thinks needling others for their belief is a life's work.
Don't be bitter, Dave.
Dave Nelson wrote:
Getting up everyday with nothing to do but what you want to do can get old. Especially when you really have nothing to do. Called going in circles. Leads to Topix addiction.
Sorry to hear that.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#182159 Oct 31, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't be bitter, Dave.
<quoted text>
Sorry to hear that.
:-)

You really need something else to do, IANS. Some new inspiration. Your creativity is suffering.

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#182160 Oct 31, 2013
Eagle 12 wrote:
<quoted text>
I think what you are wanting to know more specifically what level of prejudice I have for Gays.
Gays have been around all the way back to Noah’s day. One of Noah’s sons was a homosexual or bisexual.
I have said many times before I don’t understand homosexuality. I don’t believe we as a society will ever see unbiased research on the matter. I personally believe some homosexuals are indeed born that way. But this percentage is small in my view.
I think the majority of gays have been shaped that way by environmental factors. I had a friend for example named Robert. Robert’s Dad divorced his Mother when Robert was a small child. He was raised by his sweet Mom and three sisters.
Robert was greatly influenced by his environment and turned Gay. He was one of the first people to die of Aids in Houston back in the 80’s.
Gays have the right to live and work in our society. They have the right not to be harassed, beaten, and killed. We all as have those same rights.
I don’t participate Gay Pride Parades and I don’t support Gay marriage. I think ones sexual preference is a personal choice and not anyone’s business. I don’t want it made my business. And I prefer not to be told. I liked the military’s don’t ask don’t tell policy. I just believe it should be kept personal. Not in the closet but keep it in the bedroom with the doors locked and the shades pulled.
Do I hate Gays?
Not at all although I will be accused of hate just because I disagree with Gay marriage. I think the world has enough hate already. No one should be hated because of their sexual orientation.
You brought up the gay parade thing as a way to ridicule a poster.

That, in my view, is unacceptable and shameful.
blacklagoon

Boston, MA

#182161 Oct 31, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL.
Cold and hot must be the same thing, since one can be converted to the other like snow and water, and in exactly the same way: by warming.
You seafaring sorts - you, Macumazahn and Aura have been doing a bang up job on the nautical stuff. I've learned from you all, and have even been motivated to learn a little more on my own: masts, yards, spars, gaffs and booms, for starters. And square rigging vs. fore-and-aft (windjammers vs. schooners, bermuda rigged vs. gaff rigged) as well as a few types of sails (spankers, spinnakers, jibs and lateen). It began with somebody's comments about the difference between boat and a ship.
The connection you feel with the ocean, especially in a sail boat is pretty incredible. I make regular trips from just north of Boston up the coats to Gloucester if the wind currents and tides are favorable. It's an overnighter even with good wind.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#182162 Oct 31, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
You brought up the gay parade thing as a way to ridicule a poster.
That, in my view, is unacceptable and shameful.
Your 1/7000000000th of humanity's view carries a lot of weight, catheter.

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“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#182163 Oct 31, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Indeed... the whole tale is quite ugly, in light of modern understanding of both animals (as in extinction events) and human DNA.
But it's a cute tale, if you are simple minded and shallow too.
Being simple minded lets you ignore the many scientific problems with the story.
And being shallow lets you ignore the fact that all the kittens, all the puppies-- pretty much all the animals in the world had to die to make the story work.
And that is beyond ugly. That is obscene.
Food and drink to a good christian.

And they wonder why they are viewed with such regret

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#182164 Oct 31, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Your 1/7000000000th of humanity's view carries a lot of weight, catheter.
Where do you make up your numbers- did you go on a special course or what?

If you use the Kinsey scale, 10% of the population is 100% gay, 10% of the population is 100% heterosexual and the other 80% fall somewhere in between, ie: some level of bisexuality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_...

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#182166 Oct 31, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
The ark was designed to be a sea floating craft, not a sea "going" craft.
Propulsion through the water adds the stress. Bow pressure and the twisting, etc.
A really big wooden bucket filled with stuff can float in the ocean.
The ark was in passive mode.
Sea anchors for stability riding waves, and those weights like I posted a picture of extending from the stern to keep it headed into the waves. Structure to spread the load over the maximum length on the crests. A combo of displacement, structure, and cargo loading. Intelligent design.
Don't say it couldn't be done. Look at that stretch DC-8 I posted the link about. And that thing had to fly.
Four elephants, you twit. That's about 15 tons. Add in food for a year, that and another 150 lbs of food a day, each. Several tons of feed each. That would have taken up most of the Ark.

Now add in rhinos and hippos, and you have a broken boat.

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