Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.
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Since: Sep 08

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#182010
Oct 29, 2013
 

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http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/stats....

Was going to post this earlier re bracing and cargo loading, etc and arks in general

Who here has ever flown on a DC-8 stretch jet? That was the series 60.

That is one spindly airplane. Kind of scary the first time you get in it and see how long and skinny it was and those wings just a flopping as you taxied. You kept expecting something to fall off, like a wing. But it was a very good airplane.

Same skin and other components, just very well braced and balanced to take all that flexing. The standard DC-8 fully fueled and loaded used to weigh about 255,000 pounds. That is near 130 tons. These may have carried more. Those things bounced in turbulent air, they could fall a long ways before catching again with that weight, and usually survived it. Those were some serious thumps.

Design and assembly. Noah's Ark was nothing that couldn't be done at the time for what it was designed to do. Which was to just float on the water as upright and leakproof as possible.

Shit, you should see some of the rafts those Haitian and Cubans rode to Florida across some rough water.

Topix atheists really have to stretch and make ridiculous comparisons to say it couldn't be done. That aircraft proves it could.
blacklagoon

Brookline, MA

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#182011
Oct 29, 2013
 

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Just Think wrote:
<quoted text>
No, no, no…according to DaveNelson and Eagle12, this news spread all over the entire world! By word of mouth!
After all…forget about the rise and fall of empires…everyone in the world had to know about the guy, um, building the really big boat!
And since they all knew, their god was perfectly justified in killing them all. And their children. And the little babies.
Such an odd religion...
I think I'd be more inclined to call their religion, totally insane. No one with a stable mind could even begin to believe in such nonsense, which means......
blacklagoon

Brookline, MA

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#182012
Oct 29, 2013
 

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Just Think wrote:
<quoted text>
Man alive, this just keeps getting better and better!
If the world wasn't, um, "a massive ball rotating in space on it's axis as we see it today"…the what was it?
PleaseAnswerPleaseAnswerPlease AnswerPleaseAnswer….
holyfuckingshit, Isn't that just totally amazing? How is it possible for someone in this day of abundant information to be so incredible stupid? How, How HOW!!!!!!!!!
John K

Litchfield, OH

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#182013
Oct 29, 2013
 

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Freshly cut wood does not float. Lumber requires at least one year of air drying per inch of thickness. So if a timber is 10 inches thick it requires 10 years of air drying. Most modern mills don't like to mill wood thicker than 2 inches due to the drying time. Modern kilns can speed up the process but they require modern control systems to do this. Noah had to build this boat in a month with a handful of people. He did not have 10 years forwarning so he could put in his order at the mill. How many million board feet of wood would be needed? How many of you have ever built a boat? Even a small one! It is a pain in the butt to build a boat. To build a boat 300 feet long would take months of planing and at least 30 or so extremely strong and talented people. You would have to build 10 feet of boat a day. Of course they could work on Saturday because the ten Comandments proabition had not been in place yet. Plus someone would have to round up a years worth of food for all of the animals. And the starting weight of the boat plus cargo would be different than the weight at the end of the journey due to the animals eating the food and the dumping of their waste overboard. Of course having some gung Beatles on board would be helpful.

This is so much fun - making this crap up! I could keep going and going.

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

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#182014
Oct 29, 2013
 

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John K wrote:
Freshly cut wood does not float. Lumber requires at least one year of air drying per inch of thickness. So if a timber is 10 inches thick it requires 10 years of air drying. Most modern mills don't like to mill wood thicker than 2 inches due to the drying time. Modern kilns can speed up the process but they require modern control systems to do this. Noah had to build this boat in a month with a handful of people. He did not have 10 years forwarning so he could put in his order at the mill. How many million board feet of wood would be needed? How many of you have ever built a boat? Even a small one! It is a pain in the butt to build a boat. To build a boat 300 feet long would take months of planing and at least 30 or so extremely strong and talented people. You would have to build 10 feet of boat a day. Of course they could work on Saturday because the ten Comandments proabition had not been in place yet. Plus someone would have to round up a years worth of food for all of the animals. And the starting weight of the boat plus cargo would be different than the weight at the end of the journey due to the animals eating the food and the dumping of their waste overboard. Of course having some gung Beatles on board would be helpful.
This is so much fun - making this crap up! I could keep going and going.
You had me fooled, John.

I thought your debunking was for real.

But what about balsa wood?

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

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#182016
Oct 29, 2013
 

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Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope. You are lying. As per your habits.
More to the point: WHY DID NOT THE BIBLE EXPLAIN THAT WATER IS TWO HYDROGEN AND ONE OXYGEN?
Hmmm?
Was your god ... stupid or something?
Yeah... among other things...




<*SKYGOD*> "Oh, and make sure you give an accurate representation of the planetary motion of the immediate solar system so my words won't look like the ignorant ramblings of nomadic desert dwellers to future generations"

<<*current god prophet-scribe*>> " Got it, and on the first page of every chapter you want me and all others to come to ensure that E=mc2 is included?"

<*SKYGOD*> "Yep, that about covers it till I come back as my human self so I can sacrifice myself to myself to save my creations from the wrath of myself... Later, Mo..." **POOF**



<<*current god prophet-scribe*>> {emerging from behind burning bush} "OKAY!...listen up everyone...WE ARE NOT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE AND THE SUN DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND US!... You may want to sit down for the rest of the communique...."

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

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#182017
Oct 29, 2013
 

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Doctor REALITY wrote:
Atheism is NOT a 'faith'. It's a mindset that an unbeliever CHOOSES TO EMBRACE when they are determined to ignore the REALITY of the Glory of the Lord Christ Almighty....Just keepin' it...R-E-A-L.
How about LEVIATHAN?

What a hoot.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

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#182018
Oct 29, 2013
 

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Eagle 12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Long enough to be saved.
I see, much like your biblical myth, you're just saying anything that comes to mind as it pertains to your claims and ramblings and don't think too much about it, because your belief must survive within your mind at all costs.

It isn't about evidence, proof or even trying to apply logic.

It's all about preserving the belief.

Cognitive dissonance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_disson...

Confirmation bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bia...

Belief perserverance
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-belief-persev...

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#182019
Oct 30, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
I believe the extant of the ice sheets did not go further than the Ohio River area in all of the glaciations. There were glaciers local to mountains, but the big sheets were limited in their range.
That is incorrect as my links that I think you ignored attest. You didn't look at them, did you Dave? Your comment here contradicts them

"The snowball Earth hypothesis was originally devised to explain the apparent presence of glaciers at tropical latitudes"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth#E...

"Paleomagnetic evidence indicates that much glacial debris was deposited in low-latitude settings (Harland, 1964; Evans, 2000; Hoffman
and Schrag, 2000, 2002; Kilner et al., 2005)."
http://www.utdallas.edu/~rjstern/pdfs/Snowbal...
Dave Nelson wrote:
If you have evidence there were huge sheets, such as on Antarctica now, in the Equatorial regions,then you are looking at evidence of axial tilt. Refer to my slightly earlier posts.
Your opinions are duly noted. They happen to be incorrect.

The evidence for axial tilt is the seasons.

The evidence for tropical glaciers is a combination of the evidence for glaciers having once been present over a tract of land (scouring, erratics, drumlins, eskers, moraines, u-shaped valleys, cirques, aretes, horns, etc.) combined with paleomagnetic evidence for its tropical latitude at the time.

You are probably thinking of something relating to the variation in the obliquity of the earth's axial tilt, not the tilt itself. This phenomenon does not lead to equatorial glaciation. It is a gentle bobbing of the degree of the earth's axial tilt relative to the plane of its solar orbit that occurs over a 41,000 year cycle in which the tilt of earth's rotational axis varies from a minimum of 22.1 degrees to a maximum of 24.5 degrees at the maximum and then back again. The axis is presently 23.44 degrees - about halfway between the extremes - and presently moving toward the more upright direction. It will reach its minimum value around the year 10,000 AD. At no point in this cycle do we expect equatorial ice sheets.

You might like to read about the effect that the moon has on the stability of that axial tilt. Without the moon, earth would be expected to bob much more, with its poles at times facing almost directly toward and away from the sun. This would cause extreme weather variations including tropical glaciation as you alluded, and would wreak havoc on life. But because of the moon, happily, this doesn't happen.

Here's a brief video on the subject at http://www.youtube.com/watch... . I believe that it contains an error when it says that "The moon does more than merely produce this tilt. It also maintains it." The first sentence is incorrect. The tilt is thought to have been caused by bombardment of the earth by large planetoids in its early days of growth by accretion.

Regarding your admonition to "Refer to my slightly earlier posts," why would I? When you post like this, you undermine your scientific credibility. If you'd like others to think that the things that you post that are unfamiliar or that seem wrong or counterintuitive might be correct because you thought they were, you need to be right most of the time when your opinions are checked.

Also, being so incurious as to not look at the material provided for your edification, and immediately repeating your errors that it would have corrected, makes it appear that you don't really value scientific accuracy much as most of your intended audience does.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#182020
Oct 30, 2013
 

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Eagle 12 wrote:
Snow = Water
Snow is made of the same substance as water, and one can be converted to the other, but they are not the same thing. A snowstorm is not the same as a flood. The bible says flood and water, not snow.

More science, you say? Sure. My pleasure.

The word "water" in the scientific sense refers to the liquid form of (di)hydrogen (mon)oxide, or H2O. The solid form is called water ice, or just ice, and the gaseous form water vapor, or just vapor, although these unqualified terms are a little imprecise. For example, we also speak of things like dry ice and methane ice.

Since: Jun 13

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#182021
Oct 30, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>How cute. Anon and peekaboo are floating along in a bubble built for two.

Hmmm, there's a song there somewhere.
Awww... Are you feeling left out Davey poo... I hope it's not one of those sappy Disney songs... Oh and kudos for the creative twist on my username ;-)

Since: Jun 13

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#182022
Oct 30, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>How cute. Anon and peekaboo are floating along in a bubble built for two.

Hmmm, there's a song there somewhere.
You however did not make me chuckle so boo to you Davey poo

“Life may be sweeter for this”

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Fennario

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#182023
Oct 30, 2013
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
Would you agree that if it is true, you should be able to find the source that the Christians are using, and that if you can't, a skeptic is justified in assuming that the claim was made up until somebody can?
I'll take your silence as a "yes."
It aint necessarily so wrote:
I found secular references to KRISO aka MOERI, but when I added the word "ark" to search, all I got was Christians making the claim. Do you have a source for that that isn't a Christian apologetics site or page?
Eagle 12 wrote:
Doctor, I do not have the study on my desk.
A study on your desk would be of no value to me. I was expecting you to link to one on the Internet. Is there any reason you didn't apart from the possibility that no supporting data exists?

You also overlooked my question to you about the significance of the absence of expected evidence at http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/atheism/T... This is an excellent demonstration of the validity of that. Some of us - Christine and me that I recall - have tried unsuccessfully to find your source. That is strong evidence - albeit not proof - that it doesn't exist.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#182024
Oct 30, 2013
 

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Eagle 12 wrote:
At the same time I can’t find a study that says a wooden barge the size of the Ark wouldn’t be seaworthy for at least one year.
Is that your standard for evidence? Something is true because you haven't located a disproof?

I don't think we need a study involving an actual ark. Recall that the craft would have been of rather large dimension unsupported with metal, and it would have had to withstand a brutal downpour closer to a waterfall than rainfall. Does that not enter into your calculations at all? It does with experts.

I would accept the conclusions of engineers, as well as reasoned arguments from people like blacklagoon and this gentleman that agree with them: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4279

Why would I trust their opinions more than say yours or Dave Nelson's? With all due respect, it is because of the errors you both make. Your standards for making a pronouncement as if it were true are not as high as they should be.

Also, I have learned to be suspicious of people arguing on behalf of their faith. They have different goals and values that significantly affect the quality of their scholarship.
Eagle 12 wrote:
You don’t have to be a marine engineer to believe that wood floats, right?
You just need to be a Monty Python fan. You can learn about wood floating at about 2:20 in this very educational clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Eagle 12 wrote:
Cut timber weight thousands of pounds each. Timber was floated down rivers for over a hundred years. That method is still in use today.
Yes, wood floats, just as well if not better when dashed to pieces than when assembled into an ark. Was that the issue?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#182025
Oct 30, 2013
 

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Eagle 12 wrote:
You just have a closed mind thats all.
Is openmindedness to you the willingness to accept claims without sufficient evidence - the definition of religious faith - and closemindedness the unwillingness to do that? It would seem so.

We don't call a mind closed because it doesn't agree with us. A closed mind is one that won't consider evidence fairly - that won't allow itself to be convinced by compelling evidence and argument. By contrast, an open mind is one willing to admit ideas into its consideration chamber and give them a fair and thoughtful evaluation. It need not accept them to be called open.

Would you agree with that?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#182026
Oct 30, 2013
 

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blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>By your definition someone has a "closed mind" if they refuse to believe anything without evidence. Also, if all reason and logic coupled with science, dictates that an event could not possibly have happened, you would call that "close minded?" You believe that being completely gullible gives you an OPEN mind? Believing in something without supporting evidence means to have an OPEN MIND? Really now!!! What is your definition of the word Skeptic? What does skepticism mean to you?
I guess you covered it already. Good post.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#182027
Oct 30, 2013
 

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Eagle 12 wrote:
The typical Atheist likes to hold Christianity to the old 1940’s interpretation. Nearly all arguments are to these old interpretations. That 1940’s generation is nearly all gone. A few remain but we are losing them everyday. So Atheist are stuck in the past with their outdated arguments. And we are not buying it. This is 2013 and soon to be 2014. It’s time that Atheist update themselves with how modern Christianity believes.
Actually, we let you tell us what you believe. We don't believe any of it. Go ahead and give us your latest positions, and we'll be happy to address those, just as we are doing with you here now. Nobody is fighting with you about the ark that you wish to discuss. Nobody is invoking the 1940s.

But it is interesting and instructive to see how things are updated. What is the basis for your decision to throw out older interpretations and adopt new ones? Can you say? Would you agree that it has to be an extra-biblical standard - something happening in the world since the bible was written is determining how you understand your bible?

If so, what would that be? New scriptures? New prophets?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#182028
Oct 30, 2013
 

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Eagle 12 wrote:
if you trying to tell me that there couldn’t have been a massive flood in Noah’s day. I’m not accepting that as being true. Floods happen today on a massive scale. Rain happens today on a massive scale. What science and evidence is there that says a massive flood couldn’t have happened in biblical times?
A. None
Massive flooding definitely did occur in biblical times, before and since. But that is irrelevant to a discussion of the Christian bible story. If you shrink your claim enough, we'll likely eventually agree with you, but not your bible.

"Massive" sounds like a 2013 interpretation of what was described millennia ago as a nearly life extinguishing event, meaning a global phenomenon, which is what they were calling it in the 1940s. I don't think anybody present is arguing against massive flooding having occurred.

From the trailer for the 1928 film Noah's Ark: "See the flood that destroyed the world"
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/28970/Noah...

What is the 2013 version? The massive flood that damaged a region?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#182029
Oct 30, 2013
 

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Eagle 12 wrote:
The Bible describes Noah as a “Preacher of Righteousness.” Everyone in the world community knew Noah was building a Ark. This was not some super secret stealth project built in Area 51.
It was common knowledge and you can’t hide the fact you’re building a huge vessel. Unlike anything that was ever built. I’m sure he got it all, laughter, ridicule, jokes. The people of the time knew. They refused to believe. That is until it was too late. They had plenty of warning. They just chose to ignore it.

Noah's best friend Larry was the one who ridiculed him the most. Bill Cosby covered it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
John K

Litchfield, OH

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#182030
Oct 30, 2013
 

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Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
You had me fooled, John.
I thought your debunking was for real.
But what about balsa wood?
My point is that anyone can ramble on about Noah's ark and sound like they are making a well reasoned description of events. But sprinkling actual facts into a fabricated story doesn't make it true. I personally am on the side of the ark story being folklore. But it is amazing how much everyone on both sides of the question will go on and on about nothing. It just seems like a bunch of mental masterbaition .

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