Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.
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Oct 13, 2013
 

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timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>Of course dave, of course an infinite, universe spanning being of unfathomable intelligence is obviously going to be a petty asshole. Of course it would care deeply about whether each individual believed in it, and become deeply offended to the point of instituting a system of eternal torture for those creations that slight it.
It's funny - you always try to portray yourself as a "rebel," as someone who thinks for himself and doesn't follow the herd; and yet you cling to the most baffling piece of christian dogma. But, I assume you inferred this little "rule" on your own, correct? Perhaps while communing with this great being one on one?
I see you have been busy on this and the PTAG forum that last few hours. And apparently reactive and embittered more than usual? Are you on the rag?

Does your scientific enlightenment, the knowledge that you really aren't anything more than a glorified piece of insignificant stellar doo doo going through more aggravation than you desire, and having to put up with it cause you pain? The thought that is there is ultimately no meaning or purpose to this existence may be rubbing you a bit raw? Gee, even the learning gets old, especially when the scientific "facts" keep changing. Or the social ones. One can run out of reasons to live after a while when the thrill is gone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Even the dancing and having a ball gets old as you do, too.

Very difficult, being trapped here, especially if it is the only existence you think you will have, and the only reality you think you will ever know.

I have spent a lot of time experiencing life and understanding why things happen. Timmy, you can't really comprehend my perception of what the Supreme Being really is. It is not based upon what I read in a book. You will go through the same thing. The quest for understanding can give you a detachment from your physical thinking, and the attendant disappointments. Your conscious thinking truly looks upon itself as just another statistic.

Look at life as a trip to the zoo, but the animals aren't in cages.

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#179878
Oct 13, 2013
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-11/mach...

Tsk..

Humans are nothing more than machines to other humans.

Ain't science grand?

Really enhances your living experience, eh? Adds some depth to it.

Topix atheists have the right idea. Follow that fellow machine that is cranking the organ for you to dance to.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

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#179879
Oct 13, 2013
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
You think you know my political agenda after a half dozen posts over 24 hours, none political? I didn't know I had a political agenda. What do you think it is?
< crickets >
It aint necessarily so wrote:
What's your political agenda, and how does it differ from mine?
< sound of a pin dropping >
Robert Stevens wrote:
The answers to your questions will vary in accordance to the ambitious person that gains control.
That's the sound of evasion.
Robert Stevens wrote:
Without the moral reflections religions offer, there will be no controlling the corruption of the wealthy abusing the less fortunate.
The moral reflections of the religions? Like shooting people in the face? Like burning witches at the stake? Like slavery and forcing rape victims to marry their rapists? Like the Klan and the Taliban? Like flying airplanes into buildings? Like suicide bombers and abortion clinic bombers?

What moral values are you ascribing to Christianity? Scapegoating gays and atheists?

What moral example has the Christian church set? The Crusades? The Inquisitions? Televangelists? The Catholic pedophilia conspiracy?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

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#179880
Oct 13, 2013
 

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Robert Stevens wrote:
Atheist as anti-religion would have safe guards that would control the media, as it does in China.
You seem out of touch with reality when you post like this. It's the church that tries to control thought. The free flow of information is another humanist value. It's critical to a healthy democracy. We support free speech, open debate, an informed electorate, public education, and uncensored news.

The church is always badly damaged by those things. The latest nail in its coffin has been satellite telecommunications and the Internet. They have exposed religion to the world.

How do you think we learned about the Catholics? They paid off their victims and made them swear an oath of secrecy lest they lose the money paid them. In this way, boys that grew up on the same block in the same parish and that were molested by the same priest were unaware of one another - until they could communicate anonymously on the Internet. Then it was bam bam bam and that ugly rock was lifted and exposed to thelight of day.
Robert Stevens wrote:
To answer your question or statement, no I did not like George Bush, either one, but I would unquestionable vote for either of them over any atheist.
I'm not surprised:

“No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.”– George H. W. Bush

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#179881
Oct 13, 2013
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/ 2013-10-11/machines-gauging-yo ur-star-potential-automate-hr- hiring.html
Tsk..
Humans are nothing more than machines to other humans.
Ain't science grand?
Really enhances your living experience, eh? Adds some depth to it.
Topix atheists have the right idea. Follow that fellow machine that is cranking the organ for you to dance to.
We can be compared as a organic machine, but no machine can be compared to to us.
Bongo

Westbury, NY

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#179882
Oct 13, 2013
 
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
Formally?
How are you formally a Christian?
What does it take? Knee pads? A furtive glance? Snakes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Ah, the old furtive glance!

“Life may be sweeter for this”

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#179883
Oct 13, 2013
 

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Bongo wrote:
a dangerous atheist is one who was once religious. They know the scripture better than most and certainly have an agenda ,
What you are saying is that non-Christians that understand Christianity first hand tend to be more anti-Christian and a greater threat to the church than those who know little about it.

I can't argue with that.

You seem to be overlooking the significance of that. You're talking about an awful lot of bright, reflective, independent thinking, well educated, and morally upright people like many of the unbelievers posting in these threads. Are they all dangerous? Is there no merit to their opinions?
Bongo

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#179884
Oct 13, 2013
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Thanks for your frankness. I rarely get that answer.
I'm pretty sure that if a man did that, you would consider him evil and an enemy of his fellow man. If an alien did that, you would not consider it good or loving. Yet I'd bet you say just that about the Christian god.
Here's another tough one: Do you expect to have free will in heaven?
I ask because I am frequently told when I suggest that everybody would have been better off if we were created to love God that he gave us free will because he didn't want robots, but rather he wanted us to love him freely and by choice.
The problem is that nobody can last in heaven without eventually rebelling like the angels did unless they are stripped of free will and the ability to make that choice. You might go a billion years or even a billion billion years before you slip, but eventually, everybody will.
Or maybe you think that God wants robots after all, but not until most of them have had free will on earth and used it to wind up in hell.
Incidentally, these are the kinds of issues that help me to realize that Christian doctrine was created by men, not a god. When you write fiction, you're bound to make mistakes and wind up with contradictions that don't occur when you accurately describe reality.
I respect Gods sovereignty. Hes not a man so there is a vast difference . Even an alien,does not compare. Love trumps free will. concerning heaven Isiah said...
There shall be no more there an infant of days, nor an old man that has not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

seems like you can screw up again with free will.

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#179885
Oct 13, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
I see you have been busy on this and the PTAG forum that last few hours. And apparently reactive and embittered more than usual? Are you on the rag?
Does your scientific enlightenment, the knowledge that you really aren't anything more than a glorified piece of insignificant stellar doo doo going through more aggravation than you desire, and having to put up with it cause you pain? The thought that is there is ultimately no meaning or purpose to this existence may be rubbing you a bit raw? Gee, even the learning gets old, especially when the scientific "facts" keep changing. Or the social ones. One can run out of reasons to live after a while when the thrill is gone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Even the dancing and having a ball gets old as you do, too.
Very difficult, being trapped here, especially if it is the only existence you think you will have, and the only reality you think you will ever know.
I have spent a lot of time experiencing life and understanding why things happen. Timmy, you can't really comprehend my perception of what the Supreme Being really is. It is not based upon what I read in a book. You will go through the same thing. The quest for understanding can give you a detachment from your physical thinking, and the attendant disappointments. Your conscious thinking truly looks upon itself as just another statistic.
Look at life as a trip to the zoo, but the animals aren't in cages.
What was bitter about my post? I thought it was an amusing little observation. You're a self styled "self taught intellectual rebel," and you claim as immutable the most ludicrous piece of dogma about god. An infinite being who gets jealous? Lol.

I don't have the same crippling fear of death as you, so all of the nonsense about "interstellar doo doo" and "being trapped here until death" is meaningless to me. Your fixation on the idea that life is meaningless if there's no afterlife/god/ultimate meaning/etc is very illuminating however.

I do commend you for the last bit of your post though. Unbridled hubris is always good for a laugh. You know the mind of god well enough to speak for him because you just kinda figured out the secrets of the universe/physics by tinkering around. Of course, it's only a coincidence that your glorious intellectual journey led you straight to a very typical conception of the christian god.
Bongo

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#179886
Oct 13, 2013
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
What you are saying is that non-Christians that understand Christianity first hand tend to be more anti-Christian and a greater threat to the church than those who know little about it.
I can't argue with that.
You seem to be overlooking the significance of that. You're talking about an awful lot of bright, reflective, independent thinking, well educated, and morally upright people like many of the unbelievers posting in these threads. Are they all dangerous? Is there no merit to their opinions?
I was speaking with respect to the wounded , and scorned ones. Disbelief is ok if its not coupled with a vehement revenge like attitude, i.e rev alan, bob of quantum . Like satan. The bright etc are probably not malevolent.
Imhotep

Knoxville, TN

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#179887
Oct 13, 2013
 

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Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Well... I cannot really find a counter to your points that is not without some assumptions.
:)
When it comes to a good argument you can't beat politics Bob!

Religion is also a good argument.
Facts always trump fantasy.
So it is with religion - facts being the Achilles' heel.

Politics expose the common man and all his faults namely... greed.

I 'elected' none of these cretins that are in office.

I merely accepted what they presented and worked my way through their mistakes whenever possible.

Having Krugerrands made a big difference when the stock market tanked in 2008.

Life in Amsterdam is nice - Europe is a refreshing culture change but I shall never get used to the weather! Florida it ain't ! ;(

And when they send me back - it's always to the mountains in Appalachia.

Unfortunately this time around they got me booked solid I have a little time except to work and sleep.

And now one of my favorites...

October 12, 2013
POLL: AMERICANS DIVIDED OVER WHAT WILD ANIMAL THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE CONGRESS MAULED BY

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—As the partial government shutdown grinds on into its twelfth day, Americans remain deeply divided over what kind of wild animal they would most like to see Congress mauled by, according to a new poll released today.

While a majority of Americans say they would enjoy seeing Congress torn limb from limb by a ferocious bear, there is disagreement over which species of bear would be best suited for that assignment.

When asked,“What kind of bear would do the best job of savaging Congress with its fearsome paws?,” Americans gave grizzly bears the highest job-approval rating, followed by polar bears, and by black bears in a distant third.

But the poll showed that there was also strong support for the idea of Congress being set upon by a pack of rapacious animals, with rabid hyenas the first choice of many respondents, followed by feral dogs and cats.

While insatiable, bloodthirsty mammals were most often cited as the animals Americans would like to see eviscerate Congress, there was significant support for another scenario, involving Congress being consumed by a swarm of predatory insects.

Fifteen per cent of those surveyed “strongly agreed” with the statement,“Being torn limb from limb by a grizzly bear or devoured by a pack of rabid hyenas is too good for these people. They should be eaten, very slowly, by a colony of hungry fire ants. Yes, that’s it—fire ants. That would be amazing.”

--

~~~~~\\\||
~~~~(@@)~~
~~oOo--O--oOo~~
HOSTAGE-TAKERS CALL COMPARISONS TO TEA PARTY “HURTFUL”

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—A group representing America’s hostage-takers today blasted President Obama for his repeated comparisons between them and the Tea Party Republicans, calling his remarks “degrading and hurtful.”

The complaint came from the National Alliance of Hostage-Takers and Blackmailers, a watchdog group that monitors negative images of extortionists in the media.

“As professional hostage-takers, we never take hostages unless we have a well-thought-out plan, realistic demands, and a clear exit strategy,” read the group’s official statement.“Any comparison between what we do and these inane Tea Party antics are derogatory and unacceptable.”

The statement continued,“For years, our members have been subjected to offensive Hollywood stereotypes of hostage-takers as crazed madmen, cackling evildoers, and worse. The President’s hurtful remarks only reinforce those negative images.”

Later in the day, White House press spokesman Jay Carney offered an apology to the group:“As you can imagine, in the heat of a crisis we often say things we don’t mean. The President regrets any hurt his remarks may have caused.”

Mr. Carney said that in order to avoid offending other groups in the future, the President would resist the temptation to call the Tea Party Republicans terrorists, lunatics, or babies.

Snort! ;)

“The eye has it...”

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#179888
Oct 13, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
Really enhances your living experience, eh? Adds some depth to it.
<The Dave Nelson> "Sweet Lord Jesus, I'm not wearing any pannnntiesss....mmmmmm... "

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#179889
Oct 13, 2013
 

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Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
We can be compared as a organic machine, but no machine can be compared to to us.
I have read a few times where they expect to develop computers to surpass us. Quantum computers. Just add devices for it to control. Even organic based materials.

Cold hard analytical logic of a machine that can process faster and hold more memory than a human. And it doesn't have the emotions, dreams and illusions humans suffer from that clouds logic and reality.

Some think that is an evolutionary advancement.

Organic computers are just more efficient in transferring energy, however, the lower voltages they work at make them more susceptible to spurious signals. 20 volts can blow semiconductors. This miniaturization of circuitry can be quite awesome in what it can do. I've worked on the old electromechanical stuff and the new. The circuitry that took a two story building occupying a city block could be duplicated on something the size of a thumbnail. And that was years ago. Was the interfacing with it by humans that required larger components.

Your life is already being run by computers. No one thinks anything out anymore. They just enter data and use algorithms and go by what is spit back out. This includes governments and social programs.

Had an interesting experience with that sort of thing years ago. Installed a brand new digital telephone switching system. The manufacturerer, which was a large international outfit, introduced this elegantly architectured system for sale. I put in one of the two first installations in a warehouse distributor while one went in simultaneously in an airport. The manual was mostly blank pages. The factory tech support didn't even have one to work on. The manufacturer sent a team of engineers to the airport install. I had a woman who was my customer relations rep and her brother as a grunt worker. That was it.

Did the cutover. And did the bugs in the design ever start coming out. Nightmare. The thing wasn't tap dancing while whistling Dixie like the manufacturer and salesmen said it would. We didn't get paid unless the customer was satisfied. We had already paid for it. About 30 grand worth.

Calls of desperation to the factory resulted in assurances that the problems would be fixed in future patch levels. Some months in the future. I was invited to a meeting at their HQ to relay the issues, which they used to beat up on each other. They weren't helping us get paid. So a younger old Dave got desperate and started digging into digital innards of this machine. Fortunately there was a program to directly access the digital coding in it and make changes. Dave spent a couple of weeks, day and night, and several boxes of thermal printing paper on a 300 dpi interface seeing how this was put together and the effects those changes made. I managed to do some tweaking that way to put some fires out and us to get paid. The factory didn't do a thing.

I went up to visit the big boss of their software section. We had been talking for a while and got to know each other a bit. I was asking him about the patches that were due. Then I started telling him about how I put some of those fires out after seeing how the coding worked and tweaking them a bit. I was talking to him in 0's and 1's. He got a blank look on his face and said he didn't know how they were coded as they programmed everything through a HP5000. Then he said they couldn't support me if I did such things.

But that is how things are done with computers. They started out with directly changing machine language, but as they got more elegant and larger they relied more on programming languages to make the changes, losing the vision of what happens on the most basic levels. That is where the bugs come from. But that is the nature of the beast.

It did turn into a most excellent system, though.

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#179890
Oct 13, 2013
 

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timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>What was bitter about my post? I thought it was an amusing little observation. You're a self styled "self taught intellectual rebel," and you claim as immutable the most ludicrous piece of dogma about god. An infinite being who gets jealous? Lol.
I don't have the same crippling fear of death as you, so all of the nonsense about "interstellar doo doo" and "being trapped here until death" is meaningless to me. Your fixation on the idea that life is meaningless if there's no afterlife/god/ultimate meaning/etc is very illuminating however.
I do commend you for the last bit of your post though. Unbridled hubris is always good for a laugh. You know the mind of god well enough to speak for him because you just kinda figured out the secrets of the universe/physics by tinkering around. Of course, it's only a coincidence that your glorious intellectual journey led you straight to a very typical conception of the christian god.
:-)

You are scared of death, Timmy. It is an unknown to you. I did experience that check out line. This consciousness writing this post completely walked off the job. I was no longer Dave Nelson, but I was something else. Total wipeout of this existence on a conscious level. I woke up in a darkness far removed from here, and something I was hiding from. I had no religious belief. The closest I ever came prior to a spiritual or religious frame of mind was several years earlier when out of the blue while driving at work. I got the conscious idea an atomic bomb could explode 10 foot above my head and I would survive it. I survived over 20 tons at 40 mph in my very lap later.

My supreme being doesn't get jealous. It has no reason to. Nor does it have the sense of morality you wish to impose upon it. You see, you are the one stuck on the Christianity as written in a book. I see the stories as metaphorical, not as the absolutes you do.

As I said, you can't comprehend my perception of what it is. I can't tell you what it is, but I can tell you what it ain't. And that is whatever you think it is.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

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#179892
Oct 13, 2013
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
I have read a few times where they expect to develop computers to surpass us. Quantum computers. Just add devices for it to control. Even organic based materials.
Cold hard analytical logic of a machine that can process faster and hold more memory than a human. And it doesn't have the emotions, dreams and illusions humans suffer from that clouds logic and reality.
Some think that is an evolutionary advancement.
Organic computers are just more efficient in transferring energy, however, the lower voltages they work at make them more susceptible to spurious signals. 20 volts can blow semiconductors. This miniaturization of circuitry can be quite awesome in what it can do. I've worked on the old electromechanical stuff and the new. The circuitry that took a two story building occupying a city block could be duplicated on something the size of a thumbnail. And that was years ago. Was the interfacing with it by humans that required larger components.
Your life is already being run by computers. No one thinks anything out anymore. They just enter data and use algorithms and go by what is spit back out. This includes governments and social programs.
Had an interesting experience with that sort of thing years ago. Installed a brand new digital telephone switching system. The manufacturerer, which was a large international outfit, introduced this elegantly architectured system for sale. I put in one of the two first installations in a warehouse distributor while one went in simultaneously in an airport. The manual was mostly blank pages. The factory tech support didn't even have one to work on. The manufacturer sent a team of engineers to the airport install. I had a woman who was my customer relations rep and her brother as a grunt worker. That was it.
Did the cutover. And did the bugs in the design ever start coming out. Nightmare. The thing wasn't tap dancing while whistling Dixie like the manufacturer and salesmen said it would. We didn't get paid unless the customer was satisfied. We had already paid for it. About 30 grand worth.
Calls of desperation to the factory resulted in assurances that the problems would be fixed in future patch levels. Some months in the future. I was invited to a meeting at their HQ to relay the issues, which they used to beat up on each other. They weren't helping us get paid. So a younger old Dave got desperate and started digging into digital innards of this machine. Fortunately there was a program to directly access the digital coding in it and make changes. Dave spent a couple of weeks, day and night, and several boxes of thermal printing paper on a 300 dpi interface seeing how this was put together and the effects those changes made. I managed to do some tweaking that way to put some fires out and us to get paid. The factory didn't do a thing.
I went up to visit the big boss of their software section. We had been talking for a while and got to know each other a bit. I was asking him about the patches that were due. Then I started telling him about how I put some of those fires out after seeing how the coding worked and tweaking them a bit. I was talking to him in 0's and 1's. He got a blank look on his face and said he didn't know how they were coded as they programmed everything through a HP5000. Then he said they couldn't support me if I did such things.
But that is how things are done with computers. They started out with directly changing machine language, but as they got more elegant and larger they relied more on programming languages to make the changes, losing the vision of what happens on the most basic levels. That is where the bugs come from. But that is the nature of the beast.
It did turn into a most excellent system, though.
Are you ready for your human to digital interface installation, it comes with a free 64 gig SD card?

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#179893
Oct 13, 2013
 

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scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
<The Dave Nelson> "Sweet Lord Jesus, I'm not wearing any pannnntiesss....mmmmmm... "
You have some interesting fantasies, scar.

Some deep seated wishes and desires in you?

Go to a gay bar, someone there would be sure to help you with them.

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#179894
Oct 13, 2013
 

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Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> Are you ready for your human to digital interface installation, it comes with a free 64 gig SD card?
Already have it.

Remote control airplane I've mentioned before?

Tuned circuits swimming in a sea of signals.

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#179895
Oct 13, 2013
 

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit

Human beings, and all living creatures are made of these principles. They are also responsible for your thought, although you have a hellaceously complex feedback network modifying the environment you are in, resulting in less than uniform response to those external stimuli, both on th eindividual and collective scales.

Inductance, capacitance, and resistance are not something designed in our electrical technology. They are intrinsic principles of physics we learned to harness and affect our environment.

Don't let me get into how that technology has changed the environment we now live in. It has. It has overridden the natural flow Momma Earth developed leading up to and after we became part of the larger circuitry. May be a good thing, may be a bad one. We won't know until we get there.

Topix atheists, we are not separate from the universe. You just like to think so, even though you may pay lip service to evolution.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#179896
Oct 13, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L C_circuit
Human beings, and all living creatures are made of these principles. They are also responsible for your thought, although you have a hellaceously complex feedback network modifying the environment you are in, resulting in less than uniform response to those external stimuli, both on th eindividual and collective scales.
Inductance, capacitance, and resistance are not something designed in our electrical technology. They are intrinsic principles of physics we learned to harness and affect our environment.
Don't let me get into how that technology has changed the environment we now live in. It has. It has overridden the natural flow Momma Earth developed leading up to and after we became part of the larger circuitry. May be a good thing, may be a bad one. We won't know until we get there.
Topix atheists, we are not separate from the universe. You just like to think so, even though you may pay lip service to evolution.
DNA is the canvas, evolution is the paint.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

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#179897
Oct 13, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
You have some interesting fantasies, scar.
Some deep seated wishes and desires in you?
Go to a gay bar, someone there would be sure to help you with them.
The voice of experience speaks.

The only problem is I'm not gay and I don't drink, Dave.

NTTAWWT

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