Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

“It's all about the struggle”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#175612 Aug 26, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>...
Atheism is not a cause.
...
Then why do you sell "atheist" t-shirts if it's not a "cause", Bob?
blacklagoon

Revere, MA

#175613 Aug 26, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>well said troll some great copy and paste... very pitiful
Ever notice that when children write its usually one of two paragraphs. More evidence that you are simply a child, and a simple minded one at that. Now.....Off to bed. If you like I'll read you a story. It's about a horrible thing that lives way up in the sky and can peer into your most private thoughts. This thing is always watching you, just waiting for you to do bad things. If this thing doesn't like what it see's it can sent you to a place where you will be burned, and we know how horrid that is right.......Now..Now...don't be scared little one, I didn't mean to frighten you. Please stop crying......the story I just told you is not real. There is no horrible thing that lives in he sky, its just a story. They used in in the olden days to frighten little children like you into being good, so stop crying. Only really stupid people still believe in children's stories. Now go to sleep, think good thoughts like being an Atheist..........Shhhhh, I think he's asleep now..........yep, he's dreaming about how wonderful it is to be an Atheist.....such a good little boy!!!!!!!

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#175614 Aug 26, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
I think atheist are turds! YUP YUP that's how I feel...
Huh. Well, I guess we're breaking up then, T-T. You take care. Maybe read some books or something.

“There is no god!”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#175615 Aug 26, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>get off the Kool-Aid canoe Mikko you don't know that!!! you can't go by that time you prayed to GOD to change your looks!!!
You are like Jim Jones!

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#175616 Aug 27, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's a rational response:
What can be said of atheism?
Well Karl Marx wrote that religion is the opium of the masses. And what did Marxism spawn? The atheistic states of communism. The Soviet Union with good old Joseph Stalin at the helm produced a genocidal legacy of 20 million people across Asia and Eastern Europe and that's not counting the casualties incurred by the Soviet Army in World War II.
http://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-jo...
Then we can look at Mao Tse Tung who surpassed genocide and made it to democide by being responsible for the deaths of nearly 45 million people. Mao was a deeply committed follower of Marxism.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainme...
Oh yeah then there's also Pol Pot. He was also a Marxist and killed 2 million.
Adolf Hitler was born of a Roman Catholic mother and an alcoholic abusive father. Hitler killed 11 million, some of whom were Christian. Hitler actually wanted to replace worship of Jesus Christ with Nazism. And his extermination of Jews was based upon race, not religion, although he did try to use religion as a propaganda tool.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/H...
And because I know you'll bring up the Crusades and Inquisition and Salem Witch trials as a rebuttal, I'll sweep the legs out from underneath that right now, with pleasure of course.:)
The Salem witch trials killed 19 people and was actually brought to a stop by a Christian who recognized the wrongful deeds of others, and held them accountable for their actions.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials...
The Inquisitions killed between 800-20,000 people over 400 years.
http://www.medievality.com/spanish-inquisitio...
And the Crusades killed many thousands but was largely a battle for control within Christianity. In all of these cases there was tremendous and inexcusable loss of life, and no one can claim their side was innocent. But let's not get carried away and claim atheism is as intelligent and cultured as you make it out to be. Far from it.
You are showing the destructive power of a certain *polical, economic* system: Communism. What interests me is the way that Communism has many of the characteristics of religion (while obviously not being a religion). It regarded anyone who *didn't* believe as evil. It regarded the spread of their ideas as of hgih importance. It often made claims about the real world that were diametrically opposed to the conclusions of science (Lysenko anyone?). It felt that anyone who was heretical deserved death.

So how about the massive numbers of deaths from the slave trade: done by Christians. How about the genocide of the native american peoples: done by Christians. How about the religion-based ways in the former Yugoslavia?

The point is that both atheists and Christians can *also* be power hungry mad men. Both can kill because they are interested in control and will kill any who stand in their way.

But now let's refine this search a bit. How many mass killings have been done by Secular Humanists? You know, those who support a rational and scientific enquiry to decide morality? How many killings have been done by people who are open to new ideas rather than holding domatically on to some prescribed beliefs in either religion or politics? How many poeple have been killed in the *name* of atheism as opposed to the *name* of Christianity?

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#175617 Aug 27, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Huh. Well, I guess we're breaking up then, T-T. You take care. Maybe read some books or something.
The bible is my book

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#175618 Aug 27, 2013
Mikko wrote:
<quoted text>
You are like Jim Jones!
you are like Richard Simmons

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#175619 Aug 27, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
You are showing the destructive power of a certain *polical, economic* system: Communism. What interests me is the way that Communism has many of the characteristics of religion (while obviously not being a religion). It regarded anyone who *didn't* believe as evil. It regarded the spread of their ideas as of hgih importance. It often made claims about the real world that were diametrically opposed to the conclusions of science (Lysenko anyone?). It felt that anyone who was heretical deserved death.
So how about the massive numbers of deaths from the slave trade: done by Christians. How about the genocide of the native american peoples: done by Christians. How about the religion-based ways in the former Yugoslavia?
The point is that both atheists and Christians can *also* be power hungry mad men. Both can kill because they are interested in control and will kill any who stand in their way.
But now let's refine this search a bit. How many mass killings have been done by Secular Humanists? You know, those who support a rational and scientific enquiry to decide morality? How many killings have been done by people who are open to new ideas rather than holding domatically on to some prescribed beliefs in either religion or politics? How many poeple have been killed in the *name* of atheism as opposed to the *name* of Christianity?
Christianity can be abused because there is an objective basis to do a comparison. Under atheism or Darwinism there is no real objective basis. Slave trade was opposed by Christians based on the Bible. You are selective as usual.

1.Under what objective basis does an atheist oppose slavery? It appears non believers only speak out against slavery as depicted in their warped understanding of Scripture. They ignore the fact slavery depicted is the result of man abandoning God which is exactly what the non believer does! In Scripture context slavery is a result of unbelief!

2.Under atheism is it objectively wrong for one person to own another in all circumstances?

3. Are you saying mass killings is objectively wrong? Under what objective basis?

4. Would not the laws of nature render obsolete the arbitrary laws of man? Survival of the fittest?

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#175620 Aug 27, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>The bible is my book
It is a good idea to read more than one book. For that matter, it is a good idea to read more than one book at a time.

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#175621 Aug 27, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
It is a good idea to read more than one book. For that matter, it is a good idea to read more than one book at a time.
there are sixty six books in one bible.. So I agree with you.. start out in John then hit Proverbs...

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#175622 Aug 27, 2013
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Christianity can be abused because there is an objective basis to do a comparison.
1. That's a nonsensical sentence. How can the objective be abused?

2. Christianity has no access to objectivity or objective truth. It's entirely subjective, interpreted subjectively and changes throughout history to suit contemporary culture(s).
Under atheism or Darwinism there is no real objective basis.
1. Atheism is disbelief in deities, based on available evidence and subjective reasoning.

2. What you label Darwinism is the framework theory for all biological sciences. You cannot get more objective than science, despite science being unable to be completely objective.
Slave trade was opposed by Christians based on the Bible. You are selective as usual.
Throughout Western history, the vast, vast majority of slave owners were Christian and used the Bible to support their slavery.

You are being selective, as usual.
1.Under what objective basis does an atheist oppose slavery?
1. The argument from analogy. It goes like this "I'm human. I feel. I enjoy freedom and would not want to be a slave. Other people are human, they are like me. So it is immoral to make them slaves."

2. The belief that, as social and thinking beings, we should seek to minimize suffering and maximize happiness. Slavery is suffering, therefore it is immoral.

2a. The belief that, as social and thinking beings, we should seek to maximize human potential. Slavery destroys human potential and therefore it is immoral.

3. Societally agreed upon declarations of human rights. These prohibit slavery - again, for the betterment of humankind.
It appears non believers only speak out against slavery as depicted in their warped understanding of Scripture.
That's senseless. Your Bible supports slavery just as easily as it can be interpreted otherwise. In fact, the OT deity forces people into slavery.
They ignore the fact slavery depicted is the result of man abandoning God which is exactly what the non believer does! In Scripture context slavery is a result of unbelief!
Comparing real slavery to atheism is utter trash thinking. Slavery has nothing to do with atheism. The greatest slavers in Western history were Christians.
2.Under atheism is it objectively wrong for one person to own another in all circumstances?
Same as I presented above. You don't seem to understand where morality comes from. It comes from the social. The basis for all human morality is preservation of civil society - allowing people to get along in larger than kin groups. Religion pretends otherwise, but you simply place imagined fictions overtop of normal human morality - and often twist human morality when it suits your religious leaders.
3. Are you saying mass killings is objectively wrong? Under what objective basis?
4. Would not the laws of nature render obsolete the arbitrary laws of man? Survival of the fittest?
No. You are here failing to understand what "fit" means. You seem to be using it as "strong" or "might over weak" etc. That's false. Fit specifically refers to successful alleles (genes). Any gene that enjoys many copies in a genome is fit.

Morality, in social animals, especially intelligent ones with extremely high populations, is the "fittest." Our largest struggle right now is getting along with other cultures and accepting difference - that's something religions do very poorly at.

You believers constantly express that you have the "one, true reality" and that everyone who doesn't share your views is wrong. That won't work in our current time - there's too many people with so many different ways of understanding reality. You're going to have to change and accept others for who they are.

They're not trying to be like you.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#175623 Aug 27, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>The bible is my book
You need more than one book. Get out of the fiction section.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#175624 Aug 27, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>there are sixty six books in one bible.. So I agree with you.. start out in John then hit Proverbs...
The different books should be *actually* different books: different covers, different topics, different points of view, different basic assumptions, etc.

You are creating a closed world with no contact with reality.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#175625 Aug 27, 2013
actually, it is closer to being a cause than to being a faith or a religion. promoting rational thinking is a sort of cause, I think. but of course, to be rational, it would need to clearly be agnostic atheism. a rational thinker is most likely not to believe in a God that is like any that are generally promoted, but is also more likely not to assert that he/or she has proof or knowledge that there is no such being.
nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>Then why do you sell "atheist" t-shirts if it's not a "cause", Bob?
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#175626 Aug 27, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
The different books should be *actually* different books: different covers, different topics, different points of view, different basic assumptions, etc.
You are creating a closed world with no contact with reality.
begin with book of job, then read play JB by Archibald MacLeish.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#175627 Aug 27, 2013
interesting reply to a true believer type. I think there is a specific passage in the NT - probably from Saul/Paul regarding "wives obey your husbands, slaves obey your masters." I would place more emphasis on kindness to living beings, rather than just on mankind, however. I think some animals are better creatures than some humans, and would consider it more evil to kill a good animal than to kill a bad human being.
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
1. That's a nonsensical sentence. How can the objective be abused?
2. Christianity has no access to objectivity or objective truth. It's entirely subjective, interpreted subjectively and changes throughout history to suit contemporary culture(s).
<quoted text>
1. Atheism is disbelief in deities, based on available evidence and subjective reasoning.
2. What you label Darwinism is the framework theory for all biological sciences. You cannot get more objective than science, despite science being unable to be completely objective.
<quoted text>
Throughout Western history, the vast, vast majority of slave owners were Christian and used the Bible to support their slavery.
You are being selective, as usual.
<quoted text>
1. The argument from analogy. It goes like this "I'm human. I feel. I enjoy freedom and would not want to be a slave. Other people are human, they are like me. So it is immoral to make them slaves."
2. The belief that, as social and thinking beings, we should seek to minimize suffering and maximize happiness. Slavery is suffering, therefore it is immoral.
2a. The belief that, as social and thinking beings, we should seek to maximize human potential. Slavery destroys human potential and therefore it is immoral.
3. Societally agreed upon declarations of human rights. These prohibit slavery - again, for the betterment of humankind.
<quoted text>
That's senseless. Your Bible supports slavery just as easily as it can be interpreted otherwise. In fact, the OT deity forces people into slavery.
<quoted text>
Comparing real slavery to atheism is utter trash thinking. Slavery has nothing to do with atheism. The greatest slavers in Western history were Christians.
<quoted text>
Same as I presented above. You don't seem to understand where morality comes from. It comes from the social. The basis for all human morality is preservation of civil society - allowing people to get along in larger than kin groups. Religion pretends otherwise, but you simply place imagined fictions overtop of normal human morality - and often twist human morality when it suits your religious leaders.
<quoted text>
No. You are here failing to understand what "fit" means. You seem to be using it as "strong" or "might over weak" etc. That's false. Fit specifically refers to successful alleles (genes). Any gene that enjoys many copies in a genome is fit.
Morality, in social animals, especially intelligent ones with extremely high populations, is the "fittest." Our largest struggle right now is getting along with other cultures and accepting difference - that's something religions do very poorly at.
You believers constantly express that you have the "one, true reality" and that everyone who doesn't share your views is wrong. That won't work in our current time - there's too many people with so many different ways of understanding reality. You're going to have to change and accept others for who they are.
They're not trying to be like you.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#175628 Aug 27, 2013
when you use the phrase, in point 2 "under atheism" you completely misunderstand atheism. It is not a set of beliefs about various matters, the way most religions are. It is merely non-belief in the existence of a God. Atheists share that one lack of belief, but beyond that there is no required set of opinions or actions or rules. Atheists are even free to disagree about whether they claim to know that there is no God, or whether they simply do not believe in a God but make no knowledge claim. Generally, the reply you got from the previous responder to your assertions was sensible enough, certainly in comparison with your nonsense.
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Christianity can be abused because there is an objective basis to do a comparison. Under atheism or Darwinism there is no real objective basis. Slave trade was opposed by Christians based on the Bible. You are selective as usual.
1.Under what objective basis does an atheist oppose slavery? It appears non believers only speak out against slavery as depicted in their warped understanding of Scripture. They ignore the fact slavery depicted is the result of man abandoning God which is exactly what the non believer does! In Scripture context slavery is a result of unbelief!
2.Under atheism is it objectively wrong for one person to own another in all circumstances?
3. Are you saying mass killings is objectively wrong? Under what objective basis?
4. Would not the laws of nature render obsolete the arbitrary laws of man? Survival of the fittest?

“There is no god!”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#175629 Aug 27, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>you are like Richard Simmons
Can't be him because I'm taller and younger

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#175630 Aug 27, 2013
Mikko wrote:
<quoted text>
Can't be him because I'm taller and younger
OK then you're a young Fred Mertz LOL

“Robert Stevens”

Since: Dec 08

Jersey City , NJ

#175631 Aug 27, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you drunk? Can you restate that coherently, with some kind of point?
It was answering the statement you made. And I stand by it and most likely would have to repeat it as you repeat the cause of the effect.

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