Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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“Pepsi is better than coke”

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#174880
Aug 18, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
Most radioactive decay is uncaused: nothing different happens just before the decay that makes it happen.
Oh yeah?!? Well, what made the material radioactive in the first place? Huh? Isn't that the cause???

Huh?!?

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#174881
Aug 18, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
What testable effects lead you to infer the existence of a God that have been challenged by other explanations and have won out because of agreement with actual observations? Right, none.
None that you would accept because you rule out God from the get go in spite of the evidence. Your impious claims to truth seeking stops dead cold at the door of God. It is at that point you forfeit truth in favor of bias.
Most radioactive decay is uncaused: nothing different happens just before the decay that makes it happen.
Nobody gives a rats as# about radioactive decay so they don't bother to look into it. That is why they are skeptical when atheists with stated agenda claim it is uncaused. They are looking for uncaused events to rule God out. They are hopelessly biased.
Virtual particles. A well-established effect.
Like we haven't heard that before.
The subatomic level is what produces the ordinary level. At base, the fundamental aspect of our universe is probabilistic, not deterministic. It is acausal, not causal. You get causality at the macroscopic level because the probabilities averaged over an Avogadro's number of particles give regular patterns.
I would say no known cause is different from no cause. You are not a credible source since your bias is obvious. Why should the majority public believe what only a handful of so called experts purport to understand when by their own admission they know only a fraction of what is going on. It all sounds impressive but con jobs usually do.

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#174882
Aug 18, 2013
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> BS. All one has to do is apply rules of logic and math to his results to conclude his conclusions are absurd, his math does not work in reality. Like infinity does not work in reality. Also his inconsistency. He rules God out but his statement implies gravity and by extension physical laws are not time dependent. <quoted text> I only need his results and rules of logic and math.
<quoted text> Magical thinking. I can't believe you actually buy all that. It is nonsense. Big foot has more credibility.
<quoted text> Vacuums are not nothing and it assumes laws of Physics has causal influence then they were there when time was not! That violates his first premise. There is no time for the Laws of Physics to exist! If God is time dependent why is the Laws of Physics not? Can anybody see the inconsistency?
The rules of logic and math do not apply to a singularity
of infinite or near infinite gravity *time does not move,
so causality has no meaning, but quantum effects are not bound by time. So The universe can create itself with gravity alone.

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#174883
Aug 18, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
Once again, in the model Hawking was using, time is eternal: there is a multiverse from which the current universe is produced via a Big Bang internal to the multiverse. In this model, there is no start to time, only a transition of part of the multiverse via the BB.
Wait, wait - wouldn't time be a function of the universe in question in the multiverse hypothesis?

Is there a larger time, too? Like, if you have an infinite...er..."place " that doesn't correspond to the English word equivalent where universes are spawned, does that space have time?

Does outside our universe know that our universe is progressing through its own time? Is that a knowable thing?

Can we know about phenomena outside our universe? If there is no time outside our universe, or time is at a different pace, wouldn't that sort of constrain what is knowable from our point of view?

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I can ask more questions - always lots and lots and lots of questions!

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#174884
Aug 18, 2013
 
niharika wrote:
8439261721
come sex chat with me
Hi Dave!

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#174885
Aug 18, 2013
 
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> Gravity is the result of mass.
thanks :)

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#174886
Aug 18, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Mass, energy, momentum, stresses. In other words, the stress-energy tensor.
What is a stress-energy tensor???

Oh, ok, I'll just google it.

How does energy affect gravity?!?

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#174887
Aug 18, 2013
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> None that you would accept because you rule out God from the get go in spite of the evidence.
Wait, what evidence?

“Think&Care”

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#174888
Aug 18, 2013
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
I would say no known cause is different from no cause.
And you are correct. There is a difference between no cause and no known cause. The results of the Arrow experiment show there is no cause.

“Think&Care”

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#174889
Aug 18, 2013
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> None that you would accept because you rule out God from the get go in spite of the evidence. Your impious claims to truth seeking stops dead cold at the door of God. It is at that point you forfeit truth in favor of bias.
So you refuse to show how the hypothesis that there is a God is testable? How would a system with a God look different than a system with a God? Why is the assumption of an eternal God better than the assumption that the laws of physics are eternal?
Nobody gives a rats as# about radioactive decay so they don't bother to look into it. That is why they are skeptical when atheists with stated agenda claim it is uncaused. They are looking for uncaused events to rule God out. They are hopelessly biased.
Scientists would *love* to find a cause, but that actual evidence shows there is none. YOU are the one that is biased and ignores the actual evidence.

“Think&Care”

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#174890
Aug 18, 2013
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
What is a stress-energy tensor???
Oh, ok, I'll just google it.
How does energy affect gravity?!?
The stress-energy tensor is essentially a description of the distribution of mass, energy, momentum, and 'stress' in a region. On the other hand, the Einstein tensor describes, essentially, the curvature of spacetime. General relativity proposes that the Einstein tensor and the stress energy tensor are equal (up to a constant proportion factor). So, essentially, mass, energy, momentum, and stress produce curvature of spacetime. Curvature means that close by paths will either converge or diverge (depending on the type of curvature). This is gravity.

“Think&Care”

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#174891
Aug 18, 2013
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Wait, wait - wouldn't time be a function of the universe in question in the multiverse hypothesis?
Not necessarily. it depends on which models you use for the multiverse.
Is there a larger time, too? Like, if you have an infinite...er..."place " that doesn't correspond to the English word equivalent where universes are spawned, does that space have time?
Does outside our universe know that our universe is progressing through its own time? Is that a knowable thing?
Can we know about phenomena outside our universe? If there is no time outside our universe, or time is at a different pace, wouldn't that sort of constrain what is knowable from our point of view?
:)
:)
:)
I can ask more questions - always lots and lots and lots of questions!
And these are good questions. The obvious problem is that we do not have any actual evidence for a multiverse. But such always come up when you attempt to merge quantum mechanics and gravity. Since most multiverse models allow gravity to work between the universes, there is a possibility of testing the existence of other universes (there was even a controversial claim of observations that support this).

An analogy might help when discussing the different notions of time in the universe vs with multiverse.

Take a sphere. Imagine the latitude corresponds to time and the longitude corresponds to (one-dimensional) space. On this sphere, time 'begins' at the south pole and 'ends' at the north pole. There is, in essence, a Big Bang at the south pole and a Big Crunch at the north pole.

Now, imagine this sphere embedded in three dimensions (you probably already did that) with the north pole on top. Then, the height above the ground corresponds roughly to the latitude on the sphere. In that sense, the height in three dimensions corresponds to latitude in two dimensions. More accurately, the latitude is a projection of the height onto the sphere.

Now, it is *possible* that the multiverse, which has about 10 dimensions has a time variable (like height) that 'projects' onto time in our particular (four dimensional) universe just like height projects onto latitude. They are not identical, but they certainly are linked. This is, in fact, pretty common in multiverse models.

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#174892
Aug 18, 2013
 

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Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> The rules of logic and math do not apply to a singularity
of infinite or near infinite gravity *time does not move,
so causality has no meaning, but quantum effects are not bound by time. So The universe can create itself with gravity alone.
Lets apply Hawking argument against God.

Causes must precede their effect in time (Except gravity)
There is no time prior to the beginning of time
Therefore the universe cannot have a cause.

If that rules out God then it must also rule out gravity. Atheists rule out God but do not rule out gravity.

“Think&Care”

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#174893
Aug 18, 2013
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh yeah?!? Well, what made the material radioactive in the first place? Huh? Isn't that the cause???
Huh?!?
:)
And this is one of the reasons I requested a definition of the term 'cause'. It is a very slippery concept as applied to many situations.

For example, suppose I push on the accelerator pedal of my car. The car goes faster. There is definitely a sense in which my pushing on the pedal is the 'cause' of the car going faster. But, more precisely, pushing on the pedal made a series of levers open up a valve that lets in more fuel, so there is a bigger explosion against the piston, which produces more torque on the drive shaft, which makes the tires spin faster, which makes the friction on the ground produce a force on the car, which makes it accelerate. If there was not fuel in the line, the car would not go faster. If the piston was not connected to the drive shaft, the car would no go faster. If any of the mechanics was stuck, the car would no go faster, etc. So the *actual* cause of the car going faster is the imbalance of the frictional force and the drag force on the car. My pushing the pedal was only one way among many to produce that imbalance. It isn't guaranteed to produce that imbalance (for example if the road is icy). But, if the conditions are right, and the car is built well, pushing the pedal does cause a sequence of events leading to the imbalance of forces.

Now, for radioactivity, the situation is a bit different. Take an atom of, say, uranium-238. The nucleus is unstable (meaning it will decay) in part because the number of neutrons is too high compared to the number of protons (also because the nucleus as a whole is too large). In one sense, that is a cause for the decay. But, an nucleus of U-238 can remain un-decayed for literally billions of years. And, unlike the car or the triggering mechanism for a bomb, there is NOTHING different about a nucleus that decays right now and another nucleus that decays in 3 billion years. There is no 'triggering mechanism' that determines when that nucleus will decay. The decay of a particular nucleus is *completely* undetermined: it is uncaused. Again, nothing is different 'just before' the decay from any other time. A nucleus of U-238 that decays today is absolutely identical to one that decays in a billion years. That is what I mean when I say the time for the decay is uncaused.

“Think&Care”

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#174894
Aug 18, 2013
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Lets apply Hawking argument against God.
Causes must precede their effect in time (Except gravity)
There is no time prior to the beginning of time
Therefore the universe cannot have a cause.
If that rules out God then it must also rule out gravity. Atheists rule out God but do not rule out gravity.
Since that is NOT Hawking's argument, you are merely showing your ignorance.

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#174895
Aug 18, 2013
 

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Hidingfromyou wrote:
I don't really follow you here.
1+1=2 is abstract and is not time dependent. 1+1=2 would remain true even if there was nothing and not something. It transcends physical reality.

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#174896
Aug 18, 2013
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Lets apply Hawking argument against God.
Causes must precede their effect in time (Except gravity)
There is no time prior to the beginning of time
Therefore the universe cannot have a cause.
If that rules out God then it must also rule out gravity. Atheists rule out God but do not rule out gravity.
First of all I haven't ruled out a creator.
But lets examine this, Can you find gravity now?
Can you find or show evidence of a creator>??
We can find gravity, we can also understand what general relativity
mean to gravity and the space/time continuum.

We can identify how gravity can slow time and contract space into a singularity. These are measurable things, now show me the effects of your creator. Causality only makes sense to things bound in time. We know there are things not bound to time as we are, such as quantum effects and gravity. These effects are demonstrable and testable. Demonstrate the effects a creator has on time and gravity in our world in a testable and measurable way. showing on paper what it is. Then you have an argument, but as it is you have only a belief and no measurement or observation.

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#174897
Aug 18, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Since that is NOT Hawking's argument, you are merely showing your ignorance.
Actually it is an expression of Hawkings core argument in deductive form. Unlike you, i don't know everything.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.asp...
Towards the end of the episode, Hawking asserted that “[t]he role played by time at the beginning of the Universe is, I believe, the final key to removing the need for a Grand Designer and revealing how the Universe created itself”(“Curiosity…”). According to Hawking and other atheists, the initial moments of the Big Bang were supposedly similar to the nature of a black hole (see Miller, 2011a for a response to this idea). Hawking believes that due to the nature of a black hole, time would not have existed before the Big Bang. He asserts:

You can’t get to a time before the Big Bang, because there was no before the Big Bang. We have finally found something that doesn’t have a cause, because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me, this means that there is no possibility for a Creator, because there is no time for a Creator to have existed…. Time didn’t exist before the Big Bang. So, there is no time for God to make the Universe in (“Curiosity…,” emp. added).

So, according to Hawking, there could not have been a cause for the Big Bang since that cause had to temporally precede the effect of the Big Bang, and yet time supposedly did not exist prior to the Big Bang. Setting aside the fact that this theoretical black hole, which is speculated to have been in existence at the time of the alleged Big Bang, had to itself have a cause (according to the Law of Causality even if time did not exist before the bang), Hawking still made a blunder in supposing that a Creator could not exist if time did not exist.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#174898
Aug 18, 2013
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Wait, wait - wouldn't time be a function of the universe in question in the multiverse hypothesis?
Is there a larger time, too? Like, if you have an infinite...er..."place " that doesn't correspond to the English word equivalent where universes are spawned, does that space have time?
Does outside our universe know that our universe is progressing through its own time? Is that a knowable thing?
Can we know about phenomena outside our universe? If there is no time outside our universe, or time is at a different pace, wouldn't that sort of constrain what is knowable from our point of view?
:)
:)
:)
I can ask more questions - always lots and lots and lots of questions!
The universe has a clock that started ticking 13.7 billion years ago. Just about everything within the universe has a clock ticking
these clocks can be made to run at different rates, but the universes clock as far as we know does not vary.
Whether there are clocks ticking outside this universe we can't say. Whether this universe's clock is within another clock, we can't say. But it is entirely possible they are.
Whether the universe is aware of the passage of time , is highly controversial , but that too is possible I guess.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

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#174899
Aug 18, 2013
 

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Covert Stealth Ops wrote:
<quoted text>If Christians go to church on Sunday, then where do atheists go on Sundays.........wait for it......got it.....THE ZOO.
Jetskiing.

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