Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 258038 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Webbunny tumblelog.

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#174006 Aug 9, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh-oh.... that's not good. He was an old guy, and not in the most supreme of health.
I just hope he's on a hiatus or vacation somewhere.
I think I have his FB name somewhere or other-- it'd be hard to figure out, though.
Let me see... dammit, I cannot find a FB entry. I do recall speaking to him via PM in the past, but Topix deletes those after 30 days or so.
I hope he's OK. He practiced medicine in the Hospital I was born in...not necessarily at the same time;0) Does he use his real name on FB?

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#174007 Aug 9, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
I hope so-- I don't have a link to his Topix profile.
... just a sec:
... okay, here's his profile:
" http://www.topix.com/member/profile/itaintnec... ;
He posted 12 hours ago.
*whew*
Double *whew*. Had me worried for a minute there;0)

Since: Mar 11

Henderson, KY

#174008 Aug 9, 2013
I'm just waiting for Dave to humiliate himself with his standard tired old... Topix Atheists are like school on Saturday, no class! Or some such readers digest joke or observation that he attaches to topix atheists!

They always make him look like a clueless old man so I hope we get to see some of those soon :))

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#174009 Aug 9, 2013
SamBee wrote:
<quoted text>
Shalum,
So because you don't know how to read the bible you claim its contradictory. Post what you claim is contradictory and I'll show you the precepts to it.
If you have to **explain** it?

It's not godly.

Period.

NEXT!

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#174010 Aug 9, 2013
Bongo wrote:
<quoted text> Evidence in their heart, you dick!
Do you mean blood?

Or were you talking about fatty cholesterol?

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#174011 Aug 9, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Correct Dave. Anytime we place 'ism' at the end of a word it becomes an ideology. That's what 'ism' means. Advocating that a concept or worldview be adopted by others. It's no different than Catholicism or Protestantism at that point. An 'ism' is simply a way of saying "This is my view and everyone should adhere to it."
An atheist may lack belief in God. That doesn't mean the atheist advocates that his or her view should be the cultural norm.
Atheism however, advocates rejection of evidence that may show God exists, and by extension, advocates rejection of belief in God as a cultural norm. If this wasn't true, then why do they waste their time here arguing against the evidence?
I am an atheist, I don't practice 'atheism' because there is nothing to practice.

Atheists do not advocate rejection of beliefs, they ask for proof of these beliefs, they question the basic reasoning for these beliefs, they do not accept 'goddidit' as empirical proof, etc.

I do not reject your proofs as you have yet to offer one. You give suppositions and beliefs, then attempt to support them with historical and logical premises as if that were proof enough. It is not.

As soon as you have some quantifiable evidence....give a yell. I'd like to see it.....and yes, it MUST be something tangible. I do not accept wishful thinking, indoctrination or what ifs. You and your like minded friends have had a couple of millennia to come up with ONE SINGLE snippet of the supernatural or any cause/effect scenario that can be reliably reproduced by all and prove a link to a supposed deity.

I imagine the millennia will keep on rolling along without that proof. Just saying....as I expect the sun to appear every morning (because it always has) I don't really expect to ever commune with a god (because I never have).

Prove me wrong, it would be nice to have an eternal sugar daddy;0)

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#174012 Aug 9, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe you're sincere Poly, and I admire your honesty in stating your view. However, as I've pointed out before, I think your criteria and expectation for evidence is way too high. It's unreasonable. Such a God who would perform cosmic parlor tricks at our insistence to prove his existence is hardly a god to worship. Such a god that would allow himself to be manipulated according to our whims and demands would not then be all powerful.
Why not? He wants us to worship him, does he not? It would seem, like any human, he wants love and acceptance. He also gets jealous and angry (doesn't seem very godlike to me, but hey, I'll go with it just for fun).

So why doesn't he roll his holy ancient bones down here and reveal himself? Sounds like he needs a little instant gratification.....just like the rest of us mere mortals.

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#174013 Aug 9, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Are vegetarians on the vegetarian topix threads proselytizing or merely posting their opinions on the appropriate forums?
It seems you think that theists should be able to freely express their opinions and thoughts but atheists should not be given the same opportunity. I suppose your preacher man has instilled that in your head.
<quoted text>
I liked C. Hitchen's scenario of theists being freely allowed to roam hospital halls and intrude themselves upon complete strangers to peddle their wares. He then compared that to the supposed horrors of atheists doing the same thing and telling sick and/or dying people that there is no god/ess or eternal life....can you imagine the self righteous indignation of the holy rollers;0) Such hypocrisy, tsk, tsk.

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#174014 Aug 9, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
He supposedly did these tricks for ancient sheep herders when 99% of people couldn't read or write. Why not now when his actions could be properly observed and documented? I guess you think it's more likely he vanished as more people could read and write than he is the creation of ancient people as a method of explaining that which they didn't understand.
It's fine that you live your life on blind faith and superstition but some of us actually ask for evidence to back up a claim.
<quoted text>
I do believe that the Chinese could read and write at the time.....wonder why he didn't go there?

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#174015 Aug 9, 2013
xianity is EVIL wrote:
<quoted text>
a kristain proven wrong always responds with ad hominem insults,
why is that?
Dunno myself. At least he finally deleted the "Jesus is Love" bit below his name.

A troll by any other name is still our Davey boy;0)

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#174016 Aug 9, 2013
albtraum wrote:
I have read that Roman records of a government official of a man named Pontius Pilate have survived 2,000 years....olive oil sales, sure, why not?
Philo wrote about Pilate.
Where there's money to be made, people make sure they know what's where. Are you saying that people's lives were just not that important?
There are no records to be produced of all the crucifixions If the Romans were good record keepers then produce the records.
I suppose the plagues of Egypt were not that important either.
They were. Why would you suppose they were not?

http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/ex...
Josephus quotes Manetho who wrote a history of Egypt. Josephus says, "Manetho has granted us one fact. He has admitted that our race (the Jews) was not of Egyptian origin, but came into Egypt from elsewhere, conquered it, and afterwards left it" (1926, 267; Book 1.252). Manetho identifies Israel with the Hyksos which where expelled by Ahmose from Egypt. Josephus quotes Manetho describing this expulsion by saying:

Then the kings of the Thebaid and of the rest of Egypt rose in revolt against the shepherds (Hyksos), and a great war broke out, which was of long duration. Under a king named Misphragmouthosis, the shepherds, he says, were defeated, driven out of all the rest of Egypt, and confined in a place called Auaris, containing ten thousand arourae. The shepherds, according to Manetho, enclosed the whole area with a great strong wall, in order to secure all their possessions and spoils. Thoummosis, the son of Misphragmouthosis (he continues), invested the walls with an army of 480,000 men, and endeavored to reduce them to submission by siege. Despairing of achieving his object, he concluded a treaty, under which they were all to evacuate Egypt and go whither they would unmolested. Upon these terms no fewer than two hundred and forty thousand, entire households with their possessions, left Egypt, and traversed the desert to Syria. Then, terrified by the might of the Assyrians, who at that time were the masters of Asia, they built a city in the country now called Judaea, capable of accommodating their vast company, and gave it the name of Jerusalem (1926,197-99; Against Apion, Book 1.85-90; Manetho 1940, 86, n.2).

Later Josephus quotes Manetho again saying "After the departure of the pastoral people from Egypt to Jerusalem Tethmosis, the king who expelled them from of Egypt" (1926, 201; Book 1.94). Tethmosis is a corrupt form of Ahmose who expelled the Hyksos (Gardiner 1961, 444). In the other passage quoted above "Misphragmuthosis" who is Thutmose III is said to drive them out along with his son Thummosis (Thutmose IV). This must be a misquote for Africanus, Eusebius, and Tatian all quote Manetho saying Ahmose expelled the Hyksos.

The above quote is called evidence. Historical in nature and non biblical as it relates to Josephus and his Egyptian source. It is recorded evidence.
The ironic thing is, that the only proof for the bible....is the bible.
Not true. Aside from the fact the Bible is compiled accounts there are extra biblical accounts validating persons and places mentioned in the Bible accounts.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#174017 Aug 9, 2013
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>
I liked C. Hitchen's scenario of theists being freely allowed to roam hospital halls and intrude themselves upon complete strangers to peddle their wares. He then compared that to the supposed horrors of atheists doing the same thing and telling sick and/or dying people that there is no god/ess or eternal life....can you imagine the self righteous indignation of the holy rollers;0) Such hypocrisy, tsk, tsk.
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/23/christopher_h...

While a scientist like Richard Dawkins might be forgiven for not having his philosophic/aesthetic house in order, no such tolerance should be allowed for his notorious comrade-in-arms Christopher Hitchens. In spite of the fact that Hitchens regularly invokes the authority of empiricism and reason—he condemns anything that “contradicts science or outrages reason,” and he concedes something that no poet would: that “proteins and acids … constitute our nature”—he was not a scientist but a literary critic, a journalist, and a public intellectual. So, you would think that the perspective of the arts, literature, and philosophy would find a prominent place in his thought. But that is not the case. He proposes to clear away religion in the name of science and reason. Literature’s function in this brave new world is to depose the Bible and provide an opportunity to study the “eternal ethical questions.”

Hitchens’s “God Is Not Great” is an intellectually shameful book. To be intellectually shameful is to be dishonest, to tell less than you know, or ought to know, and to shape what you present in a way that misrepresents the real state of affairs. In this sense, and in Hitchens’s own term, his book lacks “decency.”(You may think that I lack decency for attacking a man so recently deceased, but I do no more than what Hitchens himself did. Speaking of Jerry Falwell, Hitchens pointedly refuses a “compassionate word” for this “departed fraud.”)

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#174018 Aug 9, 2013
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
Irrefutable evidence that prayer works was illustrated to me three times in 2 years. In no way was it a coincidence or by just luck or chance.
Dozens of folks witnessed it and I will never deny the power of prayer again.
You're not worthy of the specifics.
You speak with such love in your heart. I'm learning from you about the morality of Christians such as yourself. Thank you.

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#174019 Aug 9, 2013
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
Look at how hateful this atheist is. Just look !!
Just look at "The Dave" or the Tsar, lol! We've got skeptic and Liberty, so far the lineup looks even on both sides of the coin.

Pray for some composure;0)

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#174020 Aug 10, 2013
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
Your reasoning is failing miserably or else you could walk freely away from this thread and never talk about God again.....but your faith in atheism is just too weak. You know Christians are much happier and at peace than you are.
We have your miserable posts of slander, persecution, bickering, verbal assaults, and mockery to prove that you know full well that you are a liar first to yourself and then to others.
*I can just tell you are steaming mad at me for exposing the truth about what a deceptive liar you are*
Your reasoning is failing miserably or else you could walk freely away from this thread and never talk about Atheism again...but the fact that your "god" is not here to smack that attitude out of that egotistical little body will keep bringing you back to start more hateful conversations. You know Atheists are much happier and more at peace than you are.
We have your miserable posts of slander, persecution, bickering, verbal assaults, and mockery to prove that you know full well that you are a liar in the face of your invisible friend, to yourself, and then to others by claiming that you know just as much or even more than anyone else does about creation, or death.

*and I can just hear the hiss in your fingertips as you typed that last bit out. You really do enjoy calling people liars, even though your claims are also not proven.

Again, I'd like to point out that science does not claim to "have the answer"... it claims that it has the most plausible answer.... and it does. Like it or not.

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#174021 Aug 10, 2013
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Philo wrote about Pilate. <quoted text> There are no records to be produced of all the crucifixions If the Romans were good record keepers then produce the records. <quoted text> They were. Why would you suppose they were not?
http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/ex...
Josephus quotes Manetho who wrote a history of Egypt. Josephus says, "Manetho has granted us one fact. He has admitted that our race (the Jews) was not of Egyptian origin, but came into Egypt from elsewhere, conquered it, and afterwards left it" (1926, 267; Book 1.252). Manetho identifies Israel with the Hyksos which where expelled by Ahmose from Egypt. Josephus quotes Manetho describing this expulsion by saying:
Then the kings of the Thebaid and of the rest of Egypt rose in revolt against the shepherds (Hyksos), and a great war broke out, which was of long duration. Under a king named Misphragmouthosis, the shepherds, he says, were defeated, driven out of all the rest of Egypt, and confined in a place called Auaris, containing ten thousand arourae. The shepherds, according to Manetho, enclosed the whole area with a great strong wall, in order to secure all their possessions and spoils. Thoummosis, the son of Misphragmouthosis (he continues), invested the walls with an army of 480,000 men, and endeavored to reduce them to submission by siege. Despairing of achieving his object, he concluded a treaty, under which they were all to evacuate Egypt and go whither they would unmolested. Upon these terms no fewer than two hundred and forty thousand, entire households with their possessions, left Egypt, and traversed the desert to Syria. Then, terrified by the might of the Assyrians, who at that time were the masters of Asia, they built a city in the country now called Judaea, capable of accommodating their vast company, and gave it the name of Jerusalem (1926,197-99; Against Apion, Book 1.85-90; Manetho 1940, 86, n.2).
Later Josephus quotes Manetho again saying "After the departure of the pastoral people from Egypt to Jerusalem Tethmosis, the king who expelled them from of Egypt" (1926, 201; Book 1.94). Tethmosis is a corrupt form of Ahmose who expelled the Hyksos (Gardiner 1961, 444). In the other passage quoted above "Misphragmuthosis" who is Thutmose III is said to drive them out along with his son Thummosis (Thutmose IV). This must be a misquote for Africanus, Eusebius, and Tatian all quote Manetho saying Ahmose expelled the Hyksos.
The above quote is called evidence. Historical in nature and non biblical as it relates to Josephus and his Egyptian source. It is recorded evidence.
<quoted text> Not true. Aside from the fact the Bible is compiled accounts there are extra biblical accounts validating persons and places mentioned in the Bible accounts.
Your bias is painfully showing. Manetho was another unknown quantity whose writings only partially survived and have been suspected to have been tampered with. Josephus' quotes of Manetho are simply second hand knowledge (the kind that would not be accepted in a court of law) as Josephus was most likely born centuries after this first supposed historian and Josephus' original material was recopied by Christians. Neither one was a first hand observer.

I can see that you've extensively studied this man and Josephus, but even the scholars do not agree although I see you have clearly made up your mind. Opinions vary and it seems everyone has their own. C'est la vie.

Why would I dispute or validate Roman records? They're 2,000 years old and I'm sure many things have not survived. One just has to wonder what was recorded and what was left to oral history as RA is so fond of espousing. That's his standard answer for everything that has gone missing. You also, use suppositions to prop up your conjectures.

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#174022 Aug 10, 2013
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text>
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/23/christopher_h...
While a scientist like Richard Dawkins might be forgiven for not having his philosophic/aesthetic house in order, no such tolerance should be allowed for his notorious comrade-in-arms Christopher Hitchens. In spite of the fact that Hitchens regularly invokes the authority of empiricism and reason—he condemns anything that “contradicts science or outrages reason,” and he concedes something that no poet would: that “proteins and acids … constitute our nature”—he was not a scientist but a literary critic, a journalist, and a public intellectual. So, you would think that the perspective of the arts, literature, and philosophy would find a prominent place in his thought. But that is not the case. He proposes to clear away religion in the name of science and reason. Literature’s function in this brave new world is to depose the Bible and provide an opportunity to study the “eternal ethical questions.”
Hitchens’s “God Is Not Great” is an intellectually shameful book. To be intellectually shameful is to be dishonest, to tell less than you know, or ought to know, and to shape what you present in a way that misrepresents the real state of affairs. In this sense, and in Hitchens’s own term, his book lacks “decency.”(You may think that I lack decency for attacking a man so recently deceased, but I do no more than what Hitchens himself did. Speaking of Jerry Falwell, Hitchens pointedly refuses a “compassionate word” for this “departed fraud.”)
There you have it!!! ONE man's opinion;0) I have another, but I seriously doubt we would get anything useful out of the discussion.

Nevertheless, Hitch's observation of theistic behavior was true and an atheistic approach would most likely be met with stony disapproval.

Hitch wouldn't care what you think of him, neither would Falwell....they're both quite dead.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#174023 Aug 10, 2013
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>
Your bias is painfully showing.
Oh?
Manetho was another unknown quantity whose writings only partially survived and have been suspected to have been tampered with. Josephus' quotes of Manetho are simply second hand knowledge (the kind that would not be accepted in a court of law) as Josephus was most likely born centuries after this first supposed historian and Josephus' original material was recopied by Christians. Neither one was a first hand observer.
They don't have to be first hand observer. We are talking about historical investigation into an event which either happened or it did not. You do not need first hand to do investigation. Just ask a cop who investigates a crime.
I can see that you've extensively studied this man and Josephus, but even the scholars do not agree although I see you have clearly made up your mind. Opinions vary and it seems everyone has their own. C'est la vie.
What i am pointing out to you is evidence from history for the event in question. Extra biblical and Egyptian is source. Multiple source. What one does with the evidence is up to them. Some here say they require archeological and have nothing to say about written multiple source. What you get from them is dead silence. You either give the evidence the benefit of the doubt or it is dismissed for this or that excuse. But there it is! Right there! The written evidence indicates something happened between the Egyptians and the Hebrews under Moses in which the Hebrews left Egypt and ended up in what was to become Israel.
Extra-Biblical accounts
The earliest non-Biblical account of the Exodus is in the writings of the Greek author Hecataeus of Abdera: the Egyptians blame a plague on foreigners and expel them from the country, whereupon Moses, their leader, takes them to Canaan, where he founds the city of Jerusalem.[43] Hecataeus wrote in the late 4th century BCE, but the passage is quite possibly an insertion made in the mid-1st century BCE.[44] The most famous is by the Egyptian historian Manetho (3rd century BCE), known from two quotations by the 1st century CE Jewish historian Josephus. In the first, Manetho describes the Hyksos, their lowly origins in Asia, their dominion over and expulsion from Egypt, and their subsequent foundation of the city of Jerusalem and its temple. Josephus (not Manetho) identifies the Hyksos with the Jews.[45] In the second story Manetho tells how 80,000 lepers and other "impure people," led by a priest named Osarseph, join forces with the former Hyksos, now living in Jerusalem, to take over Egypt. They wreak havoc until eventually the pharaoh and his son chase them out to the borders of Syria, where Osarseph gives the lepers a law-code and changes his name to Moses.[46] Manetho differs from the other writers in describing his renegades as Egyptians rather than Jews, and in using a name other than Moses for their leader,[43] although the identification of Osarseph with Moses may be a later addition.[46][47]

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#174024 Aug 10, 2013
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Oh? <quoted text> They don't have to be first hand observer. We are talking about historical investigation into an event which either happened or it did not. You do not need first hand to do investigation. Just ask a cop who investigates a crime.
<quoted text> What i am pointing out to you is evidence from history for the event in question. Extra biblical and Egyptian is source. Multiple source. What one does with the evidence is up to them. Some here say they require archeological and have nothing to say about written multiple source. What you get from them is dead silence. You either give the evidence the benefit of the doubt or it is dismissed for this or that excuse. But there it is! Right there! The written evidence indicates something happened between the Egyptians and the Hebrews under Moses in which the Hebrews left Egypt and ended up in what was to become Israel.
<quoted text>
Its because you're a coward that you cannot prove your god and continue to lie so shamelessly in this forum.

There is a pattern of this behavior in many creationists we have seen over the years that have no evidence and are mentally ill.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#174025 Aug 10, 2013
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Oh? <quoted text> They don't have to be first hand observer. We are talking about historical investigation into an event which either happened or it did not. You do not need first hand to do investigation. Just ask a cop who investigates a crime.
So if we're talking about evidence for the man, Jesus, it's ok to not be first hand observers. But if we're talking about phylogeny and other aspects of science, that's just unacceptable.

Very nice logic there, LB.

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