Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 238467 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Webbunny tumblelog.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#173675 Aug 6, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
bla bla bla
bla-bla?

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#173676 Aug 6, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay. then I'll have to ask for some sources, links, whatever you can show me. I'll look at them as objectively as I can. I'm being serious.
"Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University also points out that there's no physical evidence that thousands of people wandered for decades in the desert. Besides, Jericho and other Canaanite cities described in the Bible didn't exist when the Israelites were supposed to be conquering them. Finkelstein says the Bible isn't just fantasy, though. He thinks the first books of the Bible were written in the seventh and sixth centuries B.C., long after the Exodus might have happened. The writers drew on a pool of folk tales, of myths, of shreds of evidence to build a history for Israel, he says."

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles...

It's only a news story, but they're interviewing archaeologists.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#173677 Aug 6, 2013
don p wrote:
bob, you dont deserve caps. I know ya stupid ass wont remember a fellow atheist, but Jack is feeling eternal pain.... Dissect that.....
You are human scum.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#173678 Aug 6, 2013
After a quick search on Google I'm noticing a trend. First of all, it must be acknowledged that very good records of Roman activity have been found in Egypt where the climate is conducive to such preservation of documents. Parts of Israel? Not so much. So we can't assume that the passage of time has worked in either your favor or mine. Records could have been kept but there is no reason to suggest that they survived to the modern era. So we're both left empty handed. If you want to claim a victory based upon the absence of evidence, it's a hollow victory because we don't know for sure if Pilate wrote anything or not. He may have, and it may just be lost to history.

Secondly, another important point is that Rome was all about it's citizens. And guess what? Most Jews of first century Palestine were NOT Roman citizens. Jesus wouldn't have received much historical reporting at all unless he was actually leading an armed revolt. And he wasn't.

So on these two points, it's not unreasonable to conclude that Jesus would have never been written about. He wasn't a Roman citizen, and he wasn't a militant revolutionary. The standard reaction would be to disregard him as another irrelevant religious fruitcake. So why write about him?

Now if you want to insist that SOMEBODY with Roman status wrote about him, then we have to go back to Josephus and Paul. Both were Roman citizens. And they're the closest sources we have with regard to contemporary or near-contemporary accounts.

Here's a publication by Mary Smallwood that will confirm the point I have made.

"no complementary accounts written from the Roman angle survive to balance that of Josephus .... In Roman eyes Judea was an unimportant province and most events there were too insignificant to merit a place in the record of the empire as a whole until a major war developed"

http://books.google.com.au/books...

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#173679 Aug 6, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
bla-bla?
bla.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#173680 Aug 6, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Yes we're all historians in the region around the time Jesus was said to live. We have documented work from all of them at around that time period. Many were walking the land during his lifetime as your links clearly show.
Yet all of these men and more which you ignored lol never mentioned Jesus once. Ever. NPR did they mention his flock of followers that should have been noticed. Yet nothing. Even as a youth Jesus would have been a person of note for his genius knowledge in the temple! Jews at the time would have marveled and bragged about that until their face turned blue, patting themselves on the back over this. Yet nothing.
The Romans and Jewish leaders at the time even if you want ignore these and more which I can provide, were very good at documenting important events and people.
Oh and number 6, you are referring to a different person. I have even more historians from the time period but you have failed in dealing with what I have already provided.
Sorry, my facts stand.
<quoted text>
Your facts stand in sand. On number 6 I am not referring to a different person they are the same, you know it, and you're a deliberately dishonest liar. You're giving intellectual atheism a bad name. There. I said it. And I don't regret saying it. Now if you wish to keep playing this silly game that you suck at, then you'll need to come up with some real evidence. I need to see something. I posted links to support every refutation, and all of them were from secular sources. Surely you can do the same. Oh and about your reference to Seneca, you didn't say if it was Seneca the Elder or Seneca the Younger. You might want to specify before throwing your monkey poop at the wall to see what sticks. You're pathetic.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#173681 Aug 6, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay. then I'll have to ask for some sources, links, whatever you can show me. I'll look at them as objectively as I can. I'm being serious.
Google is your friend here.

I'm sorry-- I no longer have access to that material-- it was quite a while ago, and mostly in dead-tree editions (which I no longer have).

Be that as it may? It hardly matters, does it?

The most damning thing is this:

**nothing** by **any** historian about Jesus **during** his alleged lifetime.

Not one jot.

Not even a tiddle.(to borrow from Proverbs)

Why?

If Jesus was so **all** fired **important**?

Would not it behoove god to see that Jesus was ...**documented**?

As a bare minimum of behavior?

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#173682 Aug 6, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
I would imagine most is done with super computer modeling, anymore anyway.
True.

But even those super computers must be programmed-- using the correct maths.

And making a computer do calculus? Isn't as easy as it is teaching your average human.

:)

I know-- I learned calculus back in the day, and I have programmed computers too-- I was a programmer for 17 years, in fact.

On the other hand, doing the multiple-sum simulations, which would take a human days or years, it a matter of seconds or at worst, minutes on a super computer, so...

:)

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#173683 Aug 6, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> LOL The Romans were the slave drivers, they say every house had 2-3 or more.
Yes... Rome's economy, like much of the world in those days, was slave-based.

Not a lot has changed in the interim, has it?

We're still slaves to our needs, even today.

:)

At least we have the freedom to move elsewhere, though.
LCN Llin

United States

#173684 Aug 6, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
"Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University also points out that there's no physical evidence that thousands of people wandered for decades in the desert. Besides, Jericho and other Canaanite cities described in the Bible didn't exist when the Israelites were supposed to be conquering them. Finkelstein says the Bible isn't just fantasy, though. He thinks the first books of the Bible were written in the seventh and sixth centuries B.C., long after the Exodus might have happened. The writers drew on a pool of folk tales, of myths, of shreds of evidence to build a history for Israel, he says."
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles...
It's only a news story, but they're interviewing archaeologists.
2003 print edition of U.S. News & World Report.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#173685 Aug 6, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
"Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University also points out that there's no physical evidence that thousands of people wandered for decades in the desert. Besides, Jericho and other Canaanite cities described in the Bible didn't exist when the Israelites were supposed to be conquering them. Finkelstein says the Bible isn't just fantasy, though. He thinks the first books of the Bible were written in the seventh and sixth centuries B.C., long after the Exodus might have happened. The writers drew on a pool of folk tales, of myths, of shreds of evidence to build a history for Israel, he says."
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles...
It's only a news story, but they're interviewing archaeologists.
I have read of that idea previously-- the oldest stories in the bible date to about 500-600 BCE, and no earlier.

All were written to **seem** much older, when in fact, they were not.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#173686 Aug 6, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
After a quick search on Google I'm noticing a trend. First of all, it must be acknowledged that very good records of Roman activity have been found in Egypt where the climate is conducive to such preservation of documents. Parts of Israel? Not so much. So we can't assume that the passage of time has worked in either your favor or mine. Records could have been kept but there is no reason to suggest that they survived to the modern era. So we're both left empty handed. If you want to claim a victory based upon the absence of evidence, it's a hollow victory because we don't know for sure if Pilate wrote anything or not. He may have, and it may just be lost to history.
Secondly, another important point is that Rome was all about it's citizens. And guess what? Most Jews of first century Palestine were NOT Roman citizens. Jesus wouldn't have received much historical reporting at all unless he was actually leading an armed revolt. And he wasn't.
So on these two points, it's not unreasonable to conclude that Jesus would have never been written about. He wasn't a Roman citizen, and he wasn't a militant revolutionary. The standard reaction would be to disregard him as another irrelevant religious fruitcake. So why write about him?
Now if you want to insist that SOMEBODY with Roman status wrote about him, then we have to go back to Josephus and Paul. Both were Roman citizens. And they're the closest sources we have with regard to contemporary or near-contemporary accounts.
Here's a publication by Mary Smallwood that will confirm the point I have made.
"no complementary accounts written from the Roman angle survive to balance that of Josephus .... In Roman eyes Judea was an unimportant province and most events there were too insignificant to merit a place in the record of the empire as a whole until a major war developed"
http://books.google.com.au/books...
Well... if your findings are correct?

Then, it pretty much wipes out the whole idea of Jesus being a god, doesn't it?

Such a minor, insignificant personage who gets nary a mention, could hardly be a god, now could he?

I'd expect **better** documentation from an actual godly offspring.

As a bare minimum of standards.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#173687 Aug 6, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
bla.
bla bla bla

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#173688 Aug 6, 2013
LCN Llin wrote:
<quoted text>
2003 print edition of U.S. News & World Report.
Yeah, I linked to it.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#173689 Aug 6, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
I have read of that idea previously-- the oldest stories in the bible date to about 500-600 BCE, and no earlier.
All were written to **seem** much older, when in fact, they were not.
It's also in "archaeology today" but I just don't have time to bother looking it up.

“ Knight Of Hyrule”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#173690 Aug 6, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
True.
But even those super computers must be programmed-- using the correct maths.
And making a computer do calculus? Isn't as easy as it is teaching your average human.
:)
I know-- I learned calculus back in the day, and I have programmed computers too-- I was a programmer for 17 years, in fact.
On the other hand, doing the multiple-sum simulations, which would take a human days or years, it a matter of seconds or at worst, minutes on a super computer, so...
:)
Yeah me too, I saw a guy who was modeling star collapse, to black holes. His models showed they don't explode like we were taught years ago. But I would imagine they could explode and then collapse in some cases. Swing and hit, swing and the club went flying ..lol

“ Knight Of Hyrule”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#173691 Aug 6, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes... Rome's economy, like much of the world in those days, was slave-based.
Not a lot has changed in the interim, has it?
We're still slaves to our needs, even today.
:)
At least we have the freedom to move elsewhere, though.
Thought you or anyone else might like this, it say's it's realistic
and you can recreate historic missions, best of all ..it's free.
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#173692 Aug 6, 2013
Another fallacy is that the Egyptians didn't document the exodus because it would have been embarrassing to the empire. But that doesn't fly because several failures were documented even mocking of members of the royal family! Certainly all the first born boys getting killed overnight would have been written about.
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>"Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University also points out that there's no physical evidence that thousands of people wandered for decades in the desert. Besides, Jericho and other Canaanite cities described in the Bible didn't exist when the Israelites were supposed to be conquering them. Finkelstein says the Bible isn't just fantasy, though. He thinks the first books of the Bible were written in the seventh and sixth centuries B.C., long after the Exodus might have happened. The writers drew on a pool of folk tales, of myths, of shreds of evidence to build a history for Israel, he says."

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles...

It's only a news story, but they're interviewing archaeologists.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#173693 Aug 6, 2013
Even if you remove the miracles and just go on totally natural human things he was said to have done he still would have been documented by several historians both roman and Jewish during the course of his life.

For example.... And yes our christhole friends always run away from this.... The temple area especially around Passover was a huge area the size of several Football fields. It was heavily guarded by armed roman soldiers because there was always nutters and pickpockets and messiah wannabes using the event to gain a rep and followers... Cough cough.... Anyways it was heavily monitored and guarded. The bible says Jesus although being raised a Jew would have seen thousands of sacrifices and animals being sold for that as few had the land to raise their own animals, but this time he gets furious over this life long tradition for him... Oh no!!! So he makes a whip and uses it to intimidate and chase people just doing their jobs out of the temple area. Somehow in this huge festival all the security both Jewish and roman missed the event... Or maybe he was such a maniac they were to scared to approach him! Either way this would have been a huge deal! And it would have easily been documented by several as this would have been such an outrage for a long established holy festival. The Jews documented less rude interactions but this one somehow escaped them...

It must have been that olive oil sale! The Rabbis were like... Son of God brandishing a whip in the temple area? Let me grab a scroll and ink and.... Hey!! That's some damn fine olive oil!
Wait what were talking about?
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>Google is your friend here.

I'm sorry-- I no longer have access to that material-- it was quite a while ago, and mostly in dead-tree editions (which I no longer have).

Be that as it may? It hardly matters, does it?

The most damning thing is this:

**nothing** by **any** historian about Jesus **during** his alleged lifetime.

Not one jot.

Not even a tiddle.(to borrow from Proverbs)

Why?

If Jesus was so **all** fired **important**?

Would not it behoove god to see that Jesus was ...**documented**?

As a bare minimum of behavior?

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#173694 Aug 6, 2013
If your guy was born around 700ad we are talking about two different guys... Sorry but my facts stand and your links help verify them.

When Jesus was on the cross he should have said.. Father why aren't they documenting this? Why have you let them forsake me for pottery and olive oil sales?
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>Your facts stand in sand. On number 6 I am not referring to a different person they are the same, you know it, and you're a deliberately dishonest liar. You're giving intellectual atheism a bad name. There. I said it. And I don't regret saying it. Now if you wish to keep playing this silly game that you suck at, then you'll need to come up with some real evidence. I need to see something. I posted links to support every refutation, and all of them were from secular sources. Surely you can do the same. Oh and about your reference to Seneca, you didn't say if it was Seneca the Elder or Seneca the Younger. You might want to specify before throwing your monkey poop at the wall to see what sticks. You're pathetic.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Atheism Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Atheists Aren't the Problem, Christian Intolera... (Oct '14) 2 hr woodtick57 6,727
Is God a Perfect Being? 4 hr hpcaban 3
introvert and an atheist 6 hr 10uhsee 1
Science Disproves Evolution (Aug '12) 7 hr thetruth 2,107
News "Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really T... (Jan '12) 7 hr thetruth 18,906
News .com | What hope is there without God? 11 hr Thinking 6
News Why Atheism Will Replace Religion (Aug '12) Tue spellmeout 14,657
More from around the web