Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 258469 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Webbunny tumblelog.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#173721 Aug 7, 2013
spudgun wrote:
<quoted text>
I liked his posts too. Maybe topix took up too much of his time as he posted a lot. Just a guess, but think he may have moved to another forum.
Check out here:

http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/T0N0LOR...

For verily I declare unto thee, thou shalt surely uncover IANS thence!
spudgun

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#173722 Aug 7, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
..thou shalt surely uncover IANS thence!
I forgot about that thread. I guess that is a good place if you want to debate Christians. I prefer this forum personally.
spudgun

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#173723 Aug 7, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
..(and that's how Exodus really happened)
:) like the story. Seems like divine humans have been around a long while.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#173724 Aug 7, 2013
spudgun wrote:
<quoted text>
:) like the story. Seems like divine humans have been around a long while.
Hey, thanks.

Yeah. I'm on that stupid thread and cringe every time I read the words. Blach!

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#173725 Aug 7, 2013
spudgun wrote:
<quoted text>
:) like the story. Seems like divine humans have been around a long while.
btw, that's the thing - if you were a pissed off Egyptian ruler, you could just send ships and kill them all, despite the Red Sea. Not a big deal.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#173726 Aug 7, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Check out here:
http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/T0N0LOR...
For verily I declare unto thee, thou shalt surely uncover IANS thence!
I keep dropping that thread. And going back.
*sigh*

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#173727 Aug 7, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
That's the problem with your hypothesis Bob. It's your level of expectation that is limiting you. You're super-imposing your modern ideals onto an ancient culture. You're thinking in terms of what **ought** to have happened compared to what **did** happen. The modern standards cannot be applied to ancient standards.
Now from a theological perspective, Jesus wasn't about showing power and miracles just for cheap thrills and circus atmosphere entertainment. His teachings and ministry were subtle with his disciples and with the crowds, and really "in-your-face" when confronting the socially elite Pharisees (ancient fundies) of that time period. Now I know you see this as some canned Christian excuse, but let's be truthful here. People who didn't want to believe Jesus' teachings and miracles explained them away, back then, and they still do today.
You say you would love the idea of an all powerful, loving God. If that's the case, why not accept the evidence we do have? It's not going to get any better.
How about 'because it isn't convincing'? And since it won't get any better, it won't ever get any more convincing.
Which attests to the honesty of what I say. I'm not willing to make stuff up to convince you. If you're not convinced, you need to look at yourself and not the lack of more convincing evidence to find out why.
But the reason it isn't convincing is that the quality of evidence isn't enough to demonstrate the most important points. It isn't even a question of a little bit more evidence would be sufficient. It isn't enough *by far* to demonstrate that there is a God and that Jesus was divine.

And if the lack of evidence is such that the existing evidence isn't convincing on such an important point, and if the evidence isn't going to get better, then the best thing to do is admit the proposition isn't proved and continue with a *lack of belief*, which is atheism.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#173728 Aug 7, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
That's the problem with your hypothesis Bob. It's your level of expectation that is limiting you. You're super-imposing your modern ideals onto an ancient culture. You're thinking in terms of what **ought** to have happened compared to what **did** happen. The modern standards cannot be applied to ancient standards.
But modern standards *should* be applied to beliefs. They should be applied to the question of whether the evidence we have is enough to support the claims made. If the culture in the past didn't record sufficient evidence to convince us, now, then we have to remain in non-belief.

If, furthermore, the claims made are against known laws of physics, and if the historical record is insufficient to show that those laws were really broken, it is reasonable to say that those claims are unproven and almost certainly wrong.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#173729 Aug 7, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't...I don't really think the Taliban existed back then. Or were connected to those other terrorists. I've followed the money trail myself and didn't see a cross-time, cross-language money trail.
Sorry, Poly. I just have to disagree with you here.
An analogy, HFY. An analogy. These religious extremists were Jewish, but were just as happy to cause problems for those who didn't believe as the Taliban are today. I do not claim any type of connection other than that.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#173730 Aug 7, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Check out here:
http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/T0N0LOR...
For verily I declare unto thee, thou shalt surely uncover IANS thence!
Thank you!! I was also wondering where IANS went.

Satan is the one true god

Since: Aug 13

Winter Park, FL

#173731 Aug 7, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
How about 'because it isn't convincing'? And since it won't get any better, it won't ever get any more convincing.
<quoted text>
But the reason it isn't convincing is that the quality of evidence isn't enough to demonstrate the most important points. It isn't even a question of a little bit more evidence would be sufficient. It isn't enough *by far* to demonstrate that there is a God and that Jesus was divine.
And if the lack of evidence is such that the existing evidence isn't convincing on such an important point, and if the evidence isn't going to get better, then the best thing to do is admit the proposition isn't proved and continue with a *lack of belief*, which is atheism.
no laws of physics were broken... and if Romanmoron believes they were, he is a bigger dimwit than I imagined..

“ad victoriam”

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#173732 Aug 7, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
An analogy, HFY. An analogy. These religious extremists were Jewish, but were just as happy to cause problems for those who didn't believe as the Taliban are today. I do not claim any type of connection other than that.

In topix Atheists are the Taliban to the topix Christian army.

Since: Mar 11

Henderson, KY

#173734 Aug 7, 2013
This is Erhman says that basically the gospels are so error filled and ridiculous they just have to be based on a real guy right? They would have done a better job had they just made the whole thing up right?

Unfortunately this is looking at their style through our modern standards. Now here's what we know about the early documentation of Jesus. It began as stories of a spirit man appearing in dreams and hallucinations, which was very common in those days. Now throw in the fact that many early Christians were converted Essenes who were known to be self sacrifice loving raving zealots and realize the mind set of these people who told roman scribes the stories and honesty I am surprised at the basic cohesion we have in the gospels.

Raving zealots are not known for well thought stories. Since they themselves were lowly, humiliated and often suffered at the hands of authority for their outrageous behaviors, it would only make sense that their messiah stories would reflect that as reinforcing their actions.

If they had made Jesus look better and more heroic it wouldn't match with their demeanor and it wouldn't attract the lowly masses that they sought after.
spudgun wrote:
<quoted text>I dont buy the Jesus myth theory, because I think that if they gospels were a pure fabrication, you could expect them to be better written. Being as they are a mish-mash of stories and myths, contradicting each other and with many absurdities. This I think would fit in with the creation of legends and myths around a hero figure in the past, written decades after the events.

The same idea that has been proposed for the Greek gods and myths, which I think I am right in saying, some later Greeks thought were based loosely on real people and hero cults, which evolved over time into the gods and legends of greek mythology.

Since: Mar 11

Henderson, KY

#173735 Aug 7, 2013
Lol! Awesome! I especially liked the historical part about giving them beer which at the time was like a form of currency!
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>Hey, Pharoh?

What's up, General in charge of trade?

Uh...we just lost 40 000 slaves. Yeah. And an army. They just took off and their deity saved them.

Oh. Well, what's the ramifications of that?

Well, we're goi-

Hahaha! General, I made a pun!

What, sir?

A pun! Don't you get it? Rami-fi-cations! I'm Ramses! hahaha, I'm so awesome. I'm a god, you know.

Yes, sir, very funny. Yes, you're a living god. The son of Ra. All heaven smiles upon you, sir.

So, what? What about these slaves and our army?

Well, and there's these plagues going around. We probably wouldn't be able to feed ourselves because the slaves left, but now that's not a problem because the plagues are killing everyone.

Huh. Ok, a net even then.

Well...it's kind of horrible out there. I mean, we've really got a lot of clean up.

Yeah, yeah. Look, don't write about this or anything. Just...sorta let it slide, ok?

What? That's hardly the point. I came to you for advice on rations, your holiness.

Yeah, sure, whatever. Just don't write about it. I'm embarrassed another deity beat me in saving slaves.

But you don't care about slaves. And...and...

What? What? Speak to your deity, worm!

Sir, just last week that other god beat you in soccer and we wrote about it. So why is this different?

Well, gosh, I don't know... That was like sports! This is like, gonna be history. I just don't want people from the future to believe in this upstart deity who really is a pain, you know?

Ramses, Ramses. We have a - I mean 'the'- greatest civilization to date! Let's just build some ships, follow those slaves, and kill the entire lot of them.

Hey! That's a great idea.

Awesome. Then we'll build some pyramids.

What??? Pyramids? Whatever for?

Well, sir, that's the other reason I came here. If I can just have a minute of your time...

Ok. Worm! Speak to your deity!

It's the latest thing in longevity, sir! First, we take 10 000 workers and pretend that they're really 100 000 slaves, and feed them meat and very expensive, hard to produce beer.

Where are you going with this?

And then, sir, after only 10 years, they will build for you a machine that will enable you to live forever.

Forever?

Yes, sir.

But I'm a deity! I will live forever.

Yes, but not really. I mean, you'll die. Tut died. You're going to die.

No I won't! I'm a deity!

We have to build this pyramid sir. It's the only thing.

<sign> Ok, by royal decree! But...but...

What, sir?

Look, I'm embarrassed about the whole thing. Go recapture those slaves and have them build it, but don't tell anyone.

What???

Yes. Don't tell anyone. I'll just go with you and re-part the Red Sea, because that's what us deities do, and you can re-capture them, and build this thing and we won't tell a damned person. Then you can let them all go again, and I'll part the Red Sea for them <yawn>.

Oh. Ok. Wow. This is getting complex.

<yawn>

I see, sir. You're tired. I'll leave.

Yeah. You go do that. Oh, and before you go, here let me break this bread and feed 10 000 men. Don't count the women or children, just give them food, ok?

Certainly, sir. And wine?

<sigh> Ok, ok, I'll make water into wine again for you. But, look, I'm tired! The tiredness that only a living god-king feels! I have to sleep soon. Send up ... I don't know, 3 women.

Done and done, sir!

(and that's how Exodus really happened)

Since: Mar 11

Henderson, KY

#173736 Aug 7, 2013
You mean campfire stories. Entertaining myths handed down one generation to the next.
spudgun wrote:
<quoted text>:) like the story. Seems like divine humans have been around a long while.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#173737 Aug 7, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
But modern standards *should* be applied to beliefs.
That's not the point I'm making with regard to history. The historian cannot apply modern practices to ancient cultures. If he does, then the research is out of context and isn't honest.
polymath257 wrote:
They should be applied to the question of whether the evidence we have is enough to support the claims made.
Which in the case of Jesus' existence is more than sufficient to the majority of the world's academic scholars. Jesus Mythologists are in a very small minority, and for good reason.
polymath257 wrote:
If the culture in the past didn't record sufficient evidence to convince us, now, then we have to remain in non-belief.
Well that argument doesn't hold for a very simple reason. You used the word "sufficient" in a manner that allows for a sliding scale of convenience. It allows you to move the goal posts. That's intellectually dishonest. I think you're sensible enough to admit that goal post moving in a debate is dishonest regardless of which side does it. You're also making another a prior assumption that ancient historians didn't write anything down regarding Jesus. Maybe they did, and it hasn't been preserved. That doesn't mean that the events didn't happen. Also, historicity doesn't have the same rules that the hard sciences do. In history, events are assumed to be true if subjected to the ten tests of reliability and they pass those tests.

With regard to the NT, atheists complain if we say they were divinely inspired. So we say "Okay, let's treat them like secular historical documents." And then you complain about that too.
polymath257 wrote:
If, furthermore, the claims made are against known laws of physics, and if the historical record is insufficient to show that those laws were really broken, it is reasonable to say that those claims are unproven and almost certainly wrong.
Holding to the dogma of empiricism is really self-refuting and circular reasoning. So let me ask you a few questions about empirical science. If only empirical evidence is the only indicator of truth, how do we measure that statement? How do we scientifically prove that statement? Is there a scientific test we can apply to that statement? No. Therefore it's only a philosophy **about** physical science that can't prove itself using the empirical method.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#173738 Aug 7, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
But the reason it isn't convincing is that the quality of evidence isn't enough to demonstrate the most important points. It isn't even a question of a little bit more evidence would be sufficient. It isn't enough *by far* to demonstrate that there is a God and that Jesus was divine.
And here I hope you understand that my following comments are not a personal attack even though I will call your reasoning into question.

1) The evidence has been convincing to millions around the world through the span of 2,000 years. What makes you think that you're entitled to a higher standard of evidence? This asks you to assess your own worthiness for evidence against people from all walks of life from the past 2,000 years. Are you claiming to be smarter than ALL of them?

2) To preemptively counter your answer to the above question, I'm going to tell you that some very intelligent people (some smarter than both you and I) have become convinced on the basis of the very same evidence I have provided in this forum. So not all Christians have come to the conclusion by blind faith. Some of the best apologists in modern times started out as skeptics.

3) I am going to let you in on some personal information. I was an agnostic until seven years ago, and then I looked into the evidence with an open mind. I had to drop my presuppositions and yet still keep a critical mind. A critical mind and critical thinking doesn't mean a skeptical mind. An "a priori" skeptical mind is actually a sign of **non-critical thinking.** I thought Christians had blind faith too. Before I looked at the evidence I mentally elevated the standard of evidence in an "a priori" fashion with the thought that if the evidence was high enough, nobody could reach it and encroach upon my psyche. That's how I know what goes on in the mind of some skeptics. I was lying to myself, and I think to an extent so are you.

That's why I respect the atheist philosopher Thomas Nagel. He admits that he doesn't want it to be true. Want is a desire. An emotion. When we don't want something, it's also a desire. We desire that which offends us to be far removed from us.

I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.”(”The Last Word” by Thomas Nagel, Oxford University Press: 1997)”

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#173739 Aug 7, 2013
Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL
Speaking of escape...
'It ain't necessarily so'(IANS) has vanished from the forums. I miss the good old doc in Mexico have you heard from him?
He's been active over in Why Should Jesus Love Me.

He's been working them over pretty good.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#173740 Aug 7, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
How about 'because it isn't convincing'? And since it won't get any better, it won't ever get any more convincing.
You don't know that. They now believe they have portions of Go Mark dated to well within the first century. That throws a bunch of modern scholarship out the window, once again! Any turn of the spade can bring about a new discovery which provides archeological evidence for say the Exodus which you reject in total in spite of the fact there are Egyptian records of the event referenced earlier. The Egyptian records has Egypt running off Israel because they were diseased. Interesting, don't ya think?

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#173741 Aug 7, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
In topix Atheists are the Taliban to the topix Christian army.
I don't feel that way. I actually like most atheists. What I don't like are the snarky egomaniacs on both sides. I also don't have much patience with intellectual dishonesty or laziness. You, Poly, Hiding, Quantum Bob, and Albtraum are all pretty cool. I mean that.

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