Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

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#173231
Aug 1, 2013
 
Givemeliberty wrote:
So we see Herod who died years before Jesus was born... Cough.. Sends the wise men. They go see Jesus at his HOUSE in Bethlehem. Not a manger. HOUSE. The family later flees to Egypt and then moves to Nazareth... Which didn't exist until the second century. Cough... Luke says the family lived in Nazareth and travelled to Bethlehem not that they had a house there.
Several errors there.
<quoted text>
How do you come to that conclusion? I gave you the chapters and verses with the birth narratives. Your earlier claim was that Jesus was born in a house in Nazareth. That's plainly what you claimed. I asked you to show me where it says that, and you can't do it. I'm not saying that Luke says they had a house there. I'd rather not have to embarrass you with your posts, but I can show you exactly what you said.

As for your other assertion about me being here in 2007, I didn't even know this site existed in 2007. You're obviously confused and it's of little use attempting to dialogue with you.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

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#173232
Aug 1, 2013
 
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
I would tend to agree with you, but here in topix land we have to define everything very carefully. And in arguments with Buck via his citations of The Stanford definitions of psychology per say atheism is the denial of the existence of God. To which you or I may say is the the lack of belief But it can be argued in this way that atheism is a belief. Specifically the denial of god.
But when you say you are a unbeliever, because you are a free thinker. You change the playing field totally. And give them no legs to stand on.
To defining any belief you present has insufficient evidence to support the existence. You are not denying or rejecting. You are making the statement that you have not the evidence to say I'm denying the existence of anything. I'm denying you have evidence of anything you believe.
I know it's unnecessarily complicating a simple concept.
But it does shift the burden of proof back where it came from.
As I'm not denying or rejecting, I'm asking you to show me the evidence. I hope that makes sense.
Besides if you read into the definition of free thought, I think you will agree.
Are you claiming that God doesn't exist?
blacklagoon

Boston, MA

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#173233
Aug 1, 2013
 

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Roman Apologist wrote:
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Are you claiming that God doesn't exist?
I'm not sure what she's claiming but there is not sufficient evidence for anyone to believe a God exists unless they have an ulterior motive, have been brought up with a solid belief system and never found reason to question these beliefs, or don't care whether or not their beliefs are true. Fear of death, the comfort of knowing something greater than you exists, or not being able to deal with adversity would all fall under ulterior motives.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#173234
Aug 1, 2013
 
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you claiming that God doesn't exist?
I claiming there is insufficient evidence to think god exists.

“Michin yeoja”

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#173235
Aug 1, 2013
 
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you claiming that God doesn't exist?
I am.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#173236
Aug 1, 2013
 
No I said a house in Bethlehem as stated in Matthew where they lived for two years before fleeing to Egypt and afterwards moved to Nazareth. In Luke they live in Nazareth and were traveling for the census and stopped off in Bethlehem where she gave birth in. Manger.

You seriously can't see the contradictions and errors there? Seriously?
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>How do you come to that conclusion? I gave you the chapters and verses with the birth narratives. Your earlier claim was that Jesus was born in a house in Nazareth. That's plainly what you claimed. I asked you to show me where it says that, and you can't do it. I'm not saying that Luke says they had a house there. I'd rather not have to embarrass you with your posts, but I can show you exactly what you said.

As for your other assertion about me being here in 2007, I didn't even know this site existed in 2007. You're obviously confused and it's of little use attempting to dialogue with you.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

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Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

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#173237
Aug 2, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Atheism is the lack of belief in deities.
Yep.

“I started out with nothing”

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#173238
Aug 2, 2013
 

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Roman Apologist wrote:
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Atheism isn't the default position of humanity. The default position of humanity is exploration. If you put an average 8 month old baby on the floor you will see that the child's natural instinct is to explore the surroundings. The child won't sit there in doubt of whether anything exists. The child won't doubt whether or not he or she can climb or crawl. The child will explore and move wherever there aren't any obstacles, and will do so with an inquisitive open mind.
Atheism corresponds to the obstacles placed in the mental path of exploration by the individual. Obstacles to faith are self-imposed obstacles.
A new born is born with no concept of go, no belief in any god.

When a human has no belief in god they are atheists, i.e. the default position is atheism

What is learned later, whether it is by exploration or teaching is not the default position.

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#173239
Aug 2, 2013
 

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Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
That sounds like the definition of free thought not atheism.
Free thought is a basis of atheism

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#173240
Aug 2, 2013
 
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Go for it. The "fundamentalist" extremism is based upon Calvinism, which I strongly disagree with. It is the bleakest view within orthodox Christianity and borders on the edge of being a cult. If John Calvin's theology is of the view that only the "elect" can have salvation, then he was contradicting the teachings of Christ.
Each of the 40,000 different sects of christianity are cults

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#173241
Aug 2, 2013
 
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Free thought is a basis of atheism

One possible yes, but not the only avenue to atheism.
I see it more a path toward enlightenment.

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#173242
Aug 2, 2013
 
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
One possible yes, but not the only avenue to atheism.
I see it more a path toward enlightenment.
Nope not the only avenue, but atheism in itself can be enlightenment to an ex christian who is then free to think freely without the fetters of faith.

“Think&Care”

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#173243
Aug 2, 2013
 
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you claiming that God doesn't exist?
There is less evidence for a deity than there is for the luminous ether. I don't believe the luminous ether exists either.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#173244
Aug 2, 2013
 
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope not the only avenue, but atheism in itself can be enlightenment to an ex christian who is then free to think freely without the fetters of faith.
Hey that's a good idea, lets try that!

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

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#173245
Aug 2, 2013
 
Givemeliberty wrote:
No I said a house in Bethlehem as stated in Matthew where they lived for two years before fleeing to Egypt and afterwards moved to Nazareth. In Luke they live in Nazareth and were traveling for the census and stopped off in Bethlehem where she gave birth in. Manger.
You seriously can't see the contradictions and errors there? Seriously?
<quoted text>
It doesn't state that in either Matthew 1 or 2. Here, read for yourself.

Matthew 1

New Living Translation (NLT)
The Ancestors of Jesus the Messiah

1 This is a record of the ancestors of Jesus the Messiah, a descendant of David[a] and of Abraham:

2 Abraham was the father of Isaac.
Isaac was the father of Jacob.
Jacob was the father of Judah and his brothers.
3 Judah was the father of Perez and Zerah (whose mother was Tamar).
Perez was the father of Hezron.
Hezron was the father of Ram.[b]
4 Ram was the father of Amminadab.
Amminadab was the father of Nahshon.
Nahshon was the father of Salmon.
5 Salmon was the father of Boaz (whose mother was Rahab).
Boaz was the father of Obed (whose mother was Ruth).
Obed was the father of Jesse.
6 Jesse was the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon (whose mother was Bathsheba, the widow of Uriah).
7 Solomon was the father of Rehoboam.
Rehoboam was the father of Abijah.
Abijah was the father of Asa.[c]
8 Asa was the father of Jehoshaphat.
Jehoshaphat was the father of Jehoram.[d]
Jehoram was the father[e] of Uzziah.
9 Uzziah was the father of Jotham.
Jotham was the father of Ahaz.
Ahaz was the father of Hezekiah.
10 Hezekiah was the father of Manasseh.
Manasseh was the father of Amon.[f]
Amon was the father of Josiah.
11 Josiah was the father of Jehoiachin[g] and his brothers (born at the time of the exile to Babylon).
12 After the Babylonian exile:
Jehoiachin was the father of Shealtiel.
Shealtiel was the father of Zerubbabel.
13 Zerubbabel was the father of Abiud.
Abiud was the father of Eliakim.
Eliakim was the father of Azor.
14 Azor was the father of Zadok.
Zadok was the father of Akim.
Akim was the father of Eliud.
15 Eliud was the father of Eleazar.
Eleazar was the father of Matthan.
Matthan was the father of Jacob.
16 Jacob was the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary.
Mary gave birth to Jesus, who is called the Messiah.

17 All those listed above include fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the Babylonian exile, and fourteen from the Babylonian exile to the Messiah.
The Birth of Jesus the Messiah

18 This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit. 19 Joseph, her fiancé, was a good man and did not want to disgrace her publicly, so he decided to break the engagement[h] quietly.

20 As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream.“Joseph, son of David,” the angel said,“do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus,[i] for he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All of this occurred to fulfill the Lord’s message through his prophet:

23 “Look! The virgin will conceive a child!
She will give birth to a son,
and they will call him Immanuel,[j]
which means ‘God is with us.’”

24 When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

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#173246
Aug 2, 2013
 
Matthew 2

New Living Translation (NLT)
Visitors from the East

2 Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the reign of King Herod. About that time some wise men[a] from eastern lands arrived in Jerusalem, asking, 2 “Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We saw his star as it rose,[b] and we have come to worship him.”

3 King Herod was deeply disturbed when he heard this, as was everyone in Jerusalem. 4 He called a meeting of the leading priests and teachers of religious law and asked,“Where is the Messiah supposed to be born?”

5 “In Bethlehem in Judea,” they said,“for this is what the prophet wrote:

6 ‘And you, O Bethlehem in the land of Judah,
are not least among the ruling cities[c] of Judah,
for a ruler will come from you
who will be the shepherd for my people Israel.’[d]”

7 Then Herod called for a private meeting with the wise men, and he learned from them the time when the star first appeared. 8 Then he told them,“Go to Bethlehem and search carefully for the child. And when you find him, come back and tell me so that I can go and worship him, too!”

9 After this interview the wise men went their way. And the star they had seen in the east guided them to Bethlehem. It went ahead of them and stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were filled with joy! 11 They entered the house and saw the child with his mother, Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasure chests and gave him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

12 When it was time to leave, they returned to their own country by another route, for God had warned them in a dream not to return to Herod.
The Escape to Egypt

13 After the wise men were gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream.“Get up! Flee to Egypt with the child and his mother,” the angel said.“Stay there until I tell you to return, because Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”

14 That night Joseph left for Egypt with the child and Mary, his mother, 15 and they stayed there until Herod’s death. This fulfilled what the Lord had spoken through the prophet:“I called my Son out of Egypt.”[e]

16 Herod was furious when he realized that the wise men had outwitted him. He sent soldiers to kill all the boys in and around Bethlehem who were two years old and under, based on the wise men’s report of the star’s first appearance. 17 Herod’s brutal action fulfilled what God had spoken through the prophet Jeremiah:

18 “A cry was heard in Ramah—
weeping and great mourning.
Rachel weeps for her children,
refusing to be comforted,
for they are dead.”[f]
The Return to Nazareth

19 When Herod died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt. 20 “Get up!” the angel said.“Take the child and his mother back to the land of Israel, because those who were trying to kill the child are dead.”

21 So Joseph got up and returned to the land of Israel with Jesus and his mother. 22 But when he learned that the new ruler of Judea was Herod’s son Archelaus, he was afraid to go there. Then, after being warned in a dream, he left for the region of Galilee. 23 So the family went and lived in a town called Nazareth. This fulfilled what the prophets had said:“He will be called a Nazarene.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

Feel free to show me where in the bible it says they lived in Bethlehem for two years. I provided both chapters of Matthew that describe the conception and birth of Jesus.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

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#173247
Aug 2, 2013
 

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Roman Apologist wrote:
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It doesn't state that in either Matthew 1 or 2. Here, read for yourself.
Matthew 1
New Living Translation (NLT)
The Ancestors of Jesus the Messiah
1 This is a record of the ancestors of Jesus the Messiah, a descendant of David[a] and of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac.
Isaac was the father of Jacob.
Jacob was the father of Judah and his brothers.
3 Judah was the father of Perez and Zerah (whose mother was Tamar).
Perez was the father of Hezron.
Hezron was the father of Ram.[b]
4 Ram was the father of Amminadab.
Amminadab was the father of Nahshon.
Nahshon was the father of Salmon.
5 Salmon was the father of Boaz (whose mother was Rahab).
Boaz was the father of Obed (whose mother was Ruth).
Obed was the father of Jesse.
6 Jesse was the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon (whose mother was Bathsheba, the widow of Uriah).
7 Solomon was the father of Rehoboam.
Rehoboam was the father of Abijah.
Abijah was the father of Asa.[c]
8 Asa was the father of Jehoshaphat.
Jehoshaphat was the father of Jehoram.[d]
Jehoram was the father[e] of Uzziah.
9 Uzziah was the father of Jotham.
Jotham was the father of Ahaz.
Ahaz was the father of Hezekiah.
10 Hezekiah was the father of Manasseh.
Manasseh was the father of Amon.[f]
Amon was the father of Josiah.
11 Josiah was the father of Jehoiachin[g] and his brothers (born at the time of the exile to Babylon).
12 After the Babylonian exile:
Jehoiachin was the father of Shealtiel.
Shealtiel was the father of Zerubbabel.
13 Zerubbabel was the father of Abiud.
Abiud was the father of Eliakim.
Eliakim was the father of Azor.
14 Azor was the father of Zadok.
Zadok was the father of Akim.
Akim was the father of Eliud.
15 Eliud was the father of Eleazar.
Eleazar was the father of Matthan.
Matthan was the father of Jacob.
16 Jacob was the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary.
Mary gave birth to Jesus, who is called the Messiah.
17 All those listed above include fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the Babylonian exile, and fourteen from the Babylonian exile to the Messiah.
The Birth of Jesus the Messiah
18 This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit. 19 Joseph, her fiancé, was a good man and did not want to disgrace her publicly, so he decided to break the engagement[h] quietly.
20 As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream.“Joseph, son of David,” the angel said,“do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus,[i] for he will save his people from their sins.”
22 All of this occurred to fulfill the Lord’s message through his prophet:
23 “Look! The virgin will conceive a child!
She will give birth to a son,
and they will call him Immanuel,[j]
which means ‘God is with us.’”
24 When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
So this Jesus was not related to David in any way.
Glad we cleared THAT up.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

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#173248
Aug 2, 2013
 

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ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
A new born is born with no concept of go, no belief in any god.
When a human has no belief in god they are atheists, i.e. the default position is atheism
What is learned later, whether it is by exploration or teaching is not the default position.
Atheism is not simply lack of knowledge of God. That would be classified as ignorance. When you don't have knowledge of something, one is ignorant regarding that subject. Atheism is willful rejection of belief in God. A baby has no cognitive knowledge of God but does have the inquisitive mind to explore the world he or she is a part of. So the baby isn't an atheist. A baby is an open minded exploring human being. To be able to say "I'm an atheist" one has to know what atheism is, and one has to be aware that this is a conscious choice.

If we ask a person "Do you believe in God?" the default answer of ignorance would be "What is God?" If I ask you, you're going to say that you don't believe in any god. It's not a position of ignorance you hold. It's one of conscious choice to willfully reject the existence of any God.

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#173249
Aug 2, 2013
 
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you claiming that God doesn't exist?
There is certainly no evidence to suggest any god exists.

That complete lack of evidence therefore suggests that no gods exist.

Take trees for example. If there were no trees anywhere and no evidence of trees ever existing anywhere would you consider that trees existed?

Likewise there is no observable god, there is no evidence nor has there ever been evidence of a god entity, therefore no gods exist.

Science can verifiably explain much about the universe, the babble can explain nothing of the universe. Therefore who are we to believe, the babble with no evidence or science with multiple lines of evidence?

Science says we don’t know how this universe came about but we have several theories that to varying degrees match the known data. Sseveral even account for the unknown such as hot spots in the CMB and entire galaxies (Andromeda for example) travelling contrary to the motion of the universe and we are working to narrow those theories into a definitive answer,

Religions says we don’t know how this universe came about so we will guess with no evidence of any god that a goddidiit by magic and we will attempt to refute and deny and even lie, threaten and injure (or kill) to keep our faith.

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#173250
Aug 2, 2013
 

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Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey that's a good idea, lets try that!
Tried it, it works beyond the wildest imagination

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