Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172809 Jul 22, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Yes.
There's something fatally wrong with the underlying notions.
Yes there is...

... the children **ought** to be at the top of the top-most-top list.

Any list, but especially government's lists.

..ugg.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172810 Jul 22, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
I was in Paris, walking from the hotel for a little sight seeing at le Place de la Concorde and watched in fascination as two tractors towing trailers of manure trundled up the busy road. You can imagine the scene of two big heavy tractors rolling along side by side at around 10kph in a busy Paris street – honk, honk.

The tractors pulled up outside a newly opening McDonalds, grinding traffic to a complete standstill, crowds gathered (both pedestrian and frustrated drivers) to watch them very efficiently dumped the lot in the doorways then they drove off to cheers and applause.
I don't give a damn if your story is real, or a lovely-lovely bit of hyperbolic prose.

I loved reading it either way!

So funny, the scene you painted into my mind's eye.

:D

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172811 Jul 22, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't Panic
... indeed: Earth is **mostly** harmless.

:)

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172812 Jul 22, 2013
Thinking wrote:
How very French... however McDonalds are still expanding in France, whilst they are shutting outlets in the UK.
<quoted text>
McD's is closing it's doors in the UK?

What? Not bland enough?

<laughing my azz off-- sorry about the joke on UK cuisine...>

:D

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172813 Jul 22, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not trying to deflect Bob. Allow me to explain.
I think the word faith has been given multiple definitions over the years based upon mistaken perceptions. My blunt opinion is that faith=trust.
I do not, in principle, disagree.

But trust is based on ... what?

In my case? I freely admit I have faith in chair-shaped objects: my faith extends such that I freely sit on these things, without checking them first (to see if they will hold me up).

That is faith and trust too-- but it's based on **life** experiences of actual sitting on actual chairs.

So my faith in chairs is based on real world experiences-- which I can easily repeat at any time, if I need to.

Can the same be claimed about gods?

No.

Why?

Because the faith/trust **must** come **first** with respect to all gods.

Always.

Without this faith/trust? YOU DO NOT BELIEVE.

It really does boil down to that one.

My faith in chairs? Is **not** the same as your faith in gods.

Not at all--

-- for one thing? I keep confirming my chair-faith, every time I sit down and **do not fall**.

You have nothing even remotely similar, with respect to your faith in gods-- moreover, you **had** to create your god-faith **prior** to "experiencing" any god phenomena.

Again, in contrast to my chair-faith--which I can start out as 100% skeptical about chairs-- and then? I can test my skepticism, by-- at first-- gently pushing on the chair, then gingerly sitting.

Viola! My skepticism with regards to the chair was unjustified.

And my faith/trust comes **after**, my real-world experiences.

Your god-faith? Cannot possibly come after.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172814 Jul 22, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
I firmly believe that the early church fathers (the Apostles and their disciples) used the word faith in the way I do. Trust. They trusted because they honestly believed they had seen the risen Christ.
When I look at the total body of evidence, the big picture, I see how it all comes together, and how I can trust (have faith) in the probability. I think that the Christian church of the 21st century is starting to realize this mistake, and is replacing the word faith with trust. For many of us, they are one and same.
And I? Looking at the **exact****same** body of "evidence"?

Have concluded the exact opposite-- as have a large number of bible scholars and historians.

... not that it's a popularity contest--it's not-- reality doesn't care one way or the other, of course.

I have no faith, you see-- in contrast to you, who does.

So your faith **demands** that you reshape what you percieve, to support the faith.

But I am able to see the inconsistencies for what they really are-- inconsistencies.

And I then ask:

"What sort of deity-- who CARES-- would allow such mistakes to creep in?"

"If, as they all claim, the consequences are **infinite** in scope?"

"Then-- it **behooves** said deity to ensure CONSISTENCY."

Alas, that is **not** the case at all.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172815 Jul 22, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Wait, I got red-flagged by the effing robocensor for my last post???
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
The robocensor is kind of an idiot... in case you haven't already figured that one out...

... <laughing>

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172816 Jul 22, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
People claimed to have seen Elvis after he died. More relevantly, they also claimed to have seen David Koresh.
<quoted text>
When I look at the 'big picture', I see the case for Christianity fall apart in many ways.
I see the growth of a legend and its interaction with a larger society that was superstitious and prone to mystery cults. I see the mass production of stories that were back-attributed to the apostles and carried the biases of later believers. I see a dynamic between the Jewish and the Roman cultures that began long before Jesus supposedly existed and continued long after. I see the adoption of the cult a few centuries later by an emperor looking for a base of power. I see the books of the Bible chosen to support the power of the emperor. I see a battle early on between those who believed in a divine Christ who became human and those who did not think he was actually human. I see a previous battle between those who were Jewish and saw Jesus' message as directed to them, and Paul who wanted to spread the message to the Romans.
In all of this, power and superstition were dominant considerations. Hardly the way to preserve truth.
I see much the same things.

Which forces me to ask what sort of deity would have suffered all of the above, to mangle his "message", if said message was so all-fired important?

I mean... really?

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172817 Jul 22, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
I never said that faith is evidence. Evidence is what supports faith. Evidence is what supports the decisions that a jury makes in a court case. The jury doesn't deliberate until all the available and reasonable evidence is in and the attorneys submit their closing arguments. The jury can't say "We find the defendant guilty/not guilty" and then go looking for reasons to justify it. That wouldn't be justice. That would be foolish. Likewise, it's supposed to work the same way with Christianity. We're supposed to ask questions and weigh the merits of the total argument, not just small pieces and sound bytes.
The stereotype is that Christians say "Yup we believe" and then go looking for reasons to believe. That is just stupid. And it's equally stupid (no offense intended) to apply that stereotype to all Christians. Some of us really do think and consider the evidence.
That brings me to the next point. What is and isn't evidence?
That is undoubtedly a major point of contention. What is the standard of evidence? Is it the preponderance of the evidence which is 51% or higher, or is it beyond reasonable doubt? With all due respect to the uninitiated in legal and historical matters, the higher standard is only applied in criminal cases. Not civil cases or historical research. Certainty isn't the goal in presenting evidence for the spiritual seeker. Certainty would have us all in Vegas or never leaving the bathroom.
The Christian church is undergoing a radical change in which discussion about doubt and church history is being encouraged instead of discouraged. People want real answers before placing trust in Jesus, and I think it's right that they do. Trust shouldn't be blind as has been the attitude. Neither should people be told "Well just believe first and then we'll give you the reasons why later." No. That's dishonest. That's why you're seeing a sharp decline in mainline church populations. But that doesn't mean Christianity is declining. It means that the traditional view of church and the Christian faith is changing. House churches are on the rise. With a house church, most if not all of the funds collected go directly towards charitable causes right in the local community, because there are no administrative costs associated with the church.
Sorry to be so long on this post, but the old stereotypes are being challenged. Perceptions are being challenged in both believers and skeptics.
My faith didn't come first. The evidence built my trust from the ground up because I was willing to follow the evidence wherever it took me. And where it took me was to the probability that Jesus is who he claimed, and that all my old perceptions of an old angry petty cosmic tyrant were false because I hadn't allowed for the cultural/historical differences, and because I was too proud to admit being wrong. It took me 20 years to come to this conclusion. It couldn't happen overnight, and that's why I don't try to convince you in one argument. I give you small snippets to mentally chew on. Only you can decide if your mind is open enough to consider putting your stereotypes aside. I can't decide for you or tell you what to do. I can only tell you what worked for me.
Well, you are fairly unique among theists.

Most will do and think whatever they need to, to preserve their faith.

In short? The faith that was instilled into them as defenseless children, is what drives their thoughts-- and so they are quite willing to re-twist what they see, to "justify" that deeply ingrained faith.

I tried to cling to mine for years, by going more or less deist.

But eventually, even that nebulous faith died on the vine--for lack of supporting *facts*.

I look around the world? I see atrocity happening to little innocent kids?

God-preventable atrocity? Some of it even due to purely natural causes?

And I **have** to conclude: there cannot possibly be a god who gives a rat-fink about the fate of humans.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#172818 Jul 22, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
It is a mistake to equate empiricism with the claim that everything has to pertain to the five senses, at least if you take that strictly.
For example, empiricism has been used to demonstrate the existence of many things that are beyond our senses: radio, ultra-violet rays, neutrons, neutrinos, ultra-sound, various types of radioactivity, etc. Our eyes can detect only a very small part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Our ears have a larger range in terms of octaves, but dogs can hear much higher sounds than we can.
With that said, the *starting* point is the five senses. From those, we can learn how to detect things we cannot see or hear.
<quoted text>
I missed where you enumerated the ten tests. And yes, archeology can add to the data to consider. By not having the inherent biases of an author, it allows a bit more objectivity, but we still have the biases of the archeologist. The latter tend to be cultural and unintentional, but they still exist, just like the biases of the historians. There is now, at least, a tendency to attempt to point out such biases and learn how to minimize them in professional work.
The links I *did* see were OK as starting points, but they also tend to ignore the context by which we obtain ancient writings. Unless they are written in rock (which has its own set of cautions), ancient writings have been written and re-written by scribes over centuries. We can often even relate the different documents by looking at the errors the scribes made and how they were transmitted to later manuscripts. We can often follow how interpretations have changed over time because of the types of errors that scribes have made.
I would also challenge your assertions about the reliability of oral traditions. While they can be much more reliable than many think, they are definitely less so than written records. The most reliable ones use rhyme in some way as a memory check, but even that allows for large changes over time. It also takes a fairly large collection of people devoted to memorization to maintain reliability over time. And, finally, the subject has to be one that the memory specialists think is interesting enough to *be* memorized. And such considerations change over time. This leads to a situation where oral tradition is more reliable than a simple game of telephone, but much less reliable than written records, which are also not perfect as transmitted over centuries.
And, once again, we always have the issue of whether the stories in the writings are believable to begin with. For example, do we really think that the god Pan lead Julius Ceasar across the Rubicon?
Snort, ha hahah We are not limited to our human ability.
We indeed have developed super ability to detect things beyond those limitations. This has been a prerequisite since before radar even, but infrared and gps to new horizons we go.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#172821 Jul 22, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
And I? Looking at the **exact****same** body of "evidence"?
Have concluded the exact opposite-- as have a large number of bible scholars and historians.
... not that it's a popularity contest--it's not-- reality doesn't care one way or the other, of course.
I have no faith, you see-- in contrast to you, who does.
So your faith **demands** that you reshape what you percieve, to support the faith.
But I am able to see the inconsistencies for what they really are-- inconsistencies.
And I then ask:
"What sort of deity-- who CARES-- would allow such mistakes to creep in?"
"If, as they all claim, the consequences are **infinite** in scope?"
"Then-- it **behooves** said deity to ensure CONSISTENCY."
Alas, that is **not** the case at all.
I can certainly understand your point of view. But I thought I saw inconsistencies too. They're only inconsistencies in text. Meaning, we have to delve deeper than just the font in front of us. There are vast cultural differences that kept me from understanding.

I asked you what the fear factor would be if God was to suddenly show up in His true form in such a way that His identity as the creator and rightful king would be unmistakable. You answered that if He was the petty, angry, jealous God you were picturing Him to be, that the fear factor would be very high. And if He was the tyrannical monster you describe, I would agree. People would be committing suicide in droves. Much worse than the 1929 Wall Street stock market crash. But that's my point.

Maybe God isn't the angry petty God we humans imagine Him to be. Maybe it's our perception that's inaccurate. If He really is our judge, maybe it's better that He doesn't appear just yet. Maybe it's better that He give everyone a fair chance to accept or deny freely.
For if He did appear, our perception of Him would have us scared shitless, and any effort to placate Him wouldn't be out of respect, but out of fear. And when something is done on the basis of coercion, intimidation, fear-mongering, then it's not worth having.

In retrospect, I think He doesn't show a massive sign directly because skeptics wouldn't believe it anyways, and those who were convinced would be reacting out of fear and not love. I think that the resurrection was the only sign we were going to get, and that He did *update* His message to all of us through all the various periods of transition and translations of the bible.

And if He did show us directly, then He wouldn't be acting through humanity. In other words, humans need to experience God's influence while still retaining their individual identity. And I believe that's how men were influenced to write the bible.

Maybe His absence from our sensory capabilities is a gift in it's own right. That's the way I think of it.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#172822 Jul 22, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
I see much the same things.
Which forces me to ask what sort of deity would have suffered all of the above, to mangle his "message", if said message was so all-fired important?
I mean... really?
Do you have iTunes on your computer? I know of a podcast that might interest you. Yes it's from a pastor, but if you're willing to give it a fair listen, it might give you something to think about, from a totally different perspective. When I first heard it I was blown away.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172823 Jul 22, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
I can certainly understand your point of view. But I thought I saw inconsistencies too. They're only inconsistencies in text. Meaning, we have to delve deeper than just the font in front of us. There are vast cultural differences that kept me from understanding.
False. They are **literal** inconsistencies in the very details of the story-- and these details literally change the very nature of the story.

Example: what were Jesus' last words?

Example: who was there at Jesus' tomb on Easter morning?

Those are two of the worst examples-- but there's many more.

Like, is it faith alone? Or is it works? The NT says it's both... what?

Like is Jesus the only way, or just one of many? The NT says it's both... what?

I could go on, but the point is that the message is **muddled**.

I hold gods to a higher standard than you do.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172824 Jul 22, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
Maybe God isn't the angry petty God we humans imagine Him to be.
False.

If this god **really** cared? He would alleviate much suffering in the world.

But more to the point? A **caring** god would not suffer such as the bible to even exist-- for it's one of the most consistent sources of evil in the world.

By that, I mean people have done more evil-- "justified" by the bible's words-- than pretty much any other single cause.

Of course, the quoran is making huge inroads in the bible's records-- but that's a relatively newcomer religion and doesn't have the long-long track record the bible does.

The **only** way out of this conundrum?

Is if the gods in question: do not care at all.

(I'm ignoring the case where they are powerless--- if they're powerless, then they're not really gods at all)

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172825 Jul 22, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
For if He did appear, our perception of Him would have us scared shitless, and any effort to placate Him wouldn't be out of respect, but out of fear.
Really?

I have a working plan, should I ever come face-to-face with the acutal bible's god:

I plan on horking one right into his egotistical eye.

Respect **must** be earned. And you cannot respect what you fear.

The fact that you admit here, that the bible's god is FEAR-WORTHY?

Says to me that you agree: the bible's god is a monster.

We humans have learned to fear monsters...

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172826 Jul 22, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
In retrospect, I think He doesn't show a massive sign directly because skeptics wouldn't believe it anyways, and those who were convinced would be reacting out of fear and not love.
Oh, bullshit. There is no other way to describe your lame excuse here.

I expected better from you, than this tired old excuse.

Skeptics may take longer to come around-- but if there really **is** evidence in support of something?

They **will** come around.

Clearly, your god is incapable of ... being convincing.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#172827 Jul 22, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you have iTunes on your computer? I know of a podcast that might interest you. Yes it's from a pastor, but if you're willing to give it a fair listen, it might give you something to think about, from a totally different perspective. When I first heard it I was blown away.
No-- I refuse to pollute my PC with the bloatware, resource-hog that is itunes-- which tries to take over every single "media" file in your entire network.

Pass.

I probably wouldn't listen anyhow-- if his "arguments" are pure emotional based?

I'd have to dismiss him out of hand.

And I have **yet** to witness an argument for god, that wasn't an emotional appeal.
Imhotep

Orlando, FL

#172829 Jul 22, 2013
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
You have faith that you are right about there being no God. You are wrong and this concerns you. It's why you are enslaved to blabber your bullsh8t on forums all day long.
Your poor choice has led you to fear, your fear has led you to frustration, your frustration has led you to anger, your anger has led you to outbursts and rages of steaming bitterness. It's the flow chart for atheism and you didn't escape its wrath, you bigot.
Atheism teaches nothing!

Atheism rejects fantasy and superstition.

Excerpts from your holy guidebook... Which is full of disgusting things...

Stonings take place to this day, in many Muslim countries, based on biblical directives.(Muslims, like Christians and Jews, consider themselves the "children of Abraham.")

Remember, according to Jesus, not "one jot or one tittle" of the OT Law shall pass until the end of time. So, non-virginal brides should be stoned to death, today, tomorrow and forever.

Amnesty International has a poster that shows, to scale, the size of the stones to be used in a "proper" stoning. Imagine dying that way.

Imagine a God who would order that people should die that way.

What isn't boring in that book is sadistically cruel, rabidly misogynic and just plain primitively stupid.

But even more important, the Bible is supposedly the guide to morality, inspired by a deity.

Why is any of that awful stuff included in such a supposedly wonderful 'holy' guidebook?

Why does anyone have to make excuses for the filth in it?

The "context" argument does not hold.

There is no moral context into which murdering babies, for example, may be inserted.

Televangelists wave it dramatically, declaring it to be the "world's best-selling book for a reason,"

It may be the world's best seller, but not one Christian in a thousand knows what's really in it.

Atheists do !
We took the time to read the whole thing.
Perhaps you missed a verse or two...?
Imhotep

Orlando, FL

#172833 Jul 22, 2013
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope , haven't missed a single verse, including these that talk about you.
Romans 16:17-18 ESV
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
1 John 4:1 ESV
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Matthew 7:15 ESV
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves (atheists).
2 John 1:10-11 ESV
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
2 John 1:7 ESV
For many deceivers (atheists/ex-Christians) have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such is the deceiver and the antichrist.
How about these?

" Happy the one who takes and dashes
Your little ones against the rock! "
-- Psalm 137.9.

Did Jesus lie or was it John?

" Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father."
--John 14.12

Ignorant or lying angel?

"The Lord God shall give him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end." – Luke 1.32.33.
Hmm. Did Jesus ever get to reign over the house of Jacob?

Obedient slaves are righteous?

"Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves ... obedience leads to righteousness?"
– Romans 6.16.

Simple-minded God?

"I am jealous over you ... I fear your minds be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."
– 2 Corinthians 11.2-3.
"I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create EVIL. I the LORD do all these things."
– Isaiah 45.7.

Puerile God?

"If ye will not give glory unto my name saith the LORD ... I will spread dung upon your faces."
– Malachi 2.2,3.

Making "every thought captive.

"For the weapons of our warfare are casting down imaginations ... and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ."
– St Paul, 2 Corinthians 10.4,5.

The cost to humanity of fifteen centuries of Christian savagery – of hundreds of millions of lives brutalised and truncated, sacrificed to war, torture, pogrom, burning, pestilence and plague – is incalculable.
Imhotep

Orlando, FL

#172834 Jul 22, 2013
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess that's why you embrace it since you are incapable of learning.
Speaking of learning disabilities... ;)

I assume sufficient education and intelligence are present to accept the fact that… Neither Egyptian nor Roman history records any persons known as Moses or Jesus.

NOTE
Feel free to DISPROVE the following...

Please refrain from using Christian apologists as their viewpoints are clearly biased in favor of their dogma.

These alleged 'saviours/prophets' exist only in holy books, which themselves are copied from previous legends and myths.

"In fact, the quest for Biblical accounts of ancient Egypt at least into the 19th Dynasty of Egypt's New Kingdom, take on an interesting approach by most investigators. Essentially, since there is no evidence to clearly support the existence of Joseph, or Moses, or the Israeli Exodus, most of the investigation examines what was possible, what cannot be ruled out, or what fits into and Egyptian context.

In other words, is it possible that such events or people could have existed from what we know of ancient Egypt.

Some specifics are very possible, such as Joseph's rise to importance in the Egyptian court.

Other events, such as the Exodus, as specifically told in the Bible, are much more difficult.

Though the Egyptians may not have liked to record defeats, it would seem very probable that, were the disasters inflicted upon them as detailed in the Bible, there would have survived some textual evidence.

For example, the Egyptians recorded events such as eclipses of the sun and the levels of the Nile Flood.

Were the Nile to have turned to blood and every firstborn child suddenly have died, not to mention all of the other plagues mentioned in Exodus, there would have doubtless been some record left, particularly during the New Kingdom. Tomb records frequently provide us with the most meager of details, and we have, from that period, many thousands of documents recording civil actions and even commercial contracts."

"Despite the mass of contemporary records that have been unearthed in Egypt, not one historical reference to the presence of the Israelites has yet been found there. Not a single mention of Joseph, the Pharaoh's 'Grand Vizier'. Not a word about Moses, or the spectacular flight from Egypt and the destruction of the pursuing Egyptian army."
Magnus Magnusson (The Archaeology of the Bible Lands - BC, p43)


For many centuries the Egyptians were present in Palestine, controlling the trade routes and importing the timber, olive oil and minerals not found in Egypt.

Archaeology has uncovered dramatic evidence of this pervasive Egyptian presence in 'Canaan'– yet nowhere does the Bible refer to Egyptians outside of Egypt.

It would spoil the story!

How could Hebrews escape into the promised land if the Bible admitted Egyptians were running the show there too?

"Neither Moses, nor an enslaved Israel nor the event of this Exodus are recorded in any known ancient records outside the Bible ...
Although its climate has preserved the tiniest traces of ancient bedouin encampments and the sparse 5000-year-old villages of mine workers there is not a single trace of Moses or the Israelites."
– John Romer, Testament

In spite of this evidence you can, in fact, convert me! PTL. hallelujah!

1. Provide evidence that your God is the only true God in a way that religions other than yours cannot do.

2. Provide evidence that your holy book is true in a way that religions other than yours cannot do with theirs.

Until this time, and it will be an eternity - you are only one of many religious cult members - each claiming more or less the same immortality or enlightenment as others.

Science is inquiry. Religion is presupposition. Reasoning people do not accept religious dogma without evidence. Religion has an answer for everything, but solutions to nothing.

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