Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#171838 Jul 12, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
You ran like a scalded dog when I point for point destroyed your Christian apologetic website. To ashamed to even try to point out where I may have been incorrect?
Yes. Obviously.
<quoted text>
I ran? I didn't even see it. I'm not on here all the time. I don't read every reply. But since you admit to attempting to dismantle every one of the website's arguments, it shows something else that you can't see for yourself.

1) You don't accept the Josephus passages about Jesus.
2) You don't accept the Tacitus passages about Jesus.
3) You don't accept the Suetonius passage about Jesus.
4) You don't accept the Pliny the Younger passage referring to Jesus.
5) You don't accept the Mara Bar-Serapion letter referring to Jesus.

And you certainly wouldn't accept any of the canonical gospels which all very likely date prior to 70 A.D. So that's 9 accounts you WON'T accept.

1) Now in contrast, you would accept Book 1 of Tacitus' Annals because it tells us everything we need to know about Augustus Caesar, son of Julius Caesar. Historians accept Tacitus as the BEST PRIMARY historical source for anything regarding the Roman Empire.

2) You would accept Josephus account of the death of King Herod Agrippa in his work Antiquities of the Jews. It's the best historical account of that particular king's death in ancient Israeli history. Almost every historical scholar accepts it. It's also in the Gospel of Luke.

3) You would accept Pliny the Younger's written accounts of the eruption of Vesuvius which killed his father. Virtually all historians of ancient Greco-Roma culture accept these accounts.

Here's the real issue:

It's not that Jesus didn't exist. No sir. The real issue is that Jesus' existence bothers you so much, that you'll go to any length to revise history to get rid of that fact. You're attempting to circumvent historical events, on emotional and volitional grounds, because it really bothers you if he did exist. His existence causes you to think about being judged. It causes you to think of life after death. It causes you to evaluate your own values to see if you're living a self-absorbed life. You're afraid of change. You're afraid of being found "wrong."

What's the difference between a psychotic and a neurotic?

A psychotic is convinced that 2+2=5.

A neurotic knows that 2+2=4, but it really bothers him.

What's the difference between an atheist and a Jesus mythicist?

An atheist is honest enough to admit Jesus existed but denies the deity of Jesus.

A Jesus mythicist is so bothered by Jesus existence that he has to deny every single source that mentions Jesus as a historical person, and in so doing, attempts to re-write history and even define how historical research SHOULD be conducted to ease his own discomfort.

Now THAT is psychotic.

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#171839 Jul 12, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
<quoted text>Present some observable proof to examine and we will go from there.
Ditto

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#171840 Jul 12, 2013
From volume 15 of Tacitus' Annals of Rome which can be read in it's translated entirety here:

http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.11.xv....

Notice the web address? M.I.T. One of the best technical colleges in the nation. A very SECULAR college. Now why would such a prestigious secular school have a collection from the greatest Roman historian, including the passage related to Jesus, if it wasn't an authentic copy?

Here's the entire passage, word for word.

Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Boo-yah!:)

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#171841 Jul 12, 2013
The Almighty Tzar wrote:
<quoted text>
Ditto
Present some "Observable proof?" Really? REALLY? LMAO!!!

This is the internet. He's looking at a computer monitor. You're going to post a reply, and he's going to look at it. It will be observable proof. I'll try that the next time I run a red light.

Officer: "You ran a red light."

Me: "I did?"

Officer: "Yes sir, you did."

Me: "Got any observable proof?"

Officer: "I saw you. I was right behind you."

Me: "Sorry, not good enough."

LMFAO

"Observable proof" Wow- just WOW!!

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#171842 Jul 12, 2013
The Almighty Tzar wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah but Polly said many times "NOTHING" can exist with out time.
Not sure what 2D+2D is. I do know that if you take anyone of our 4 dimensions away from a object it will no longer exist in our universe.
Please explain the 2D+2D thing. Sounds interesting.
Did you make the mistake that poly was the absolute end answer to all?
No do not mistake me, ploy has much better logic than you have ever presented.
He also is about 10^10th smarter than you , but we can only learn what really happens. You will have to research han purple to understand that quantum effects are , and sometimes they are completely and utterly incomprehensible to everything we thought we knew.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#171843 Jul 12, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
I ran? I didn't even see it. I'm not on here all the time. I don't read every reply. But since you admit to attempting to dismantle every one of the website's arguments, it shows something else that you can't see for yourself.
1) You don't accept the Josephus passages about Jesus.
2) You don't accept the Tacitus passages about Jesus.
3) You don't accept the Suetonius passage about Jesus.
4) You don't accept the Pliny the Younger passage referring to Jesus.
5) You don't accept the Mara Bar-Serapion letter referring to Jesus.
And you certainly wouldn't accept any of the canonical gospels which all very likely date prior to 70 A.D. So that's 9 accounts you WON'T accept.
1) Now in contrast, you would accept Book 1 of Tacitus' Annals because it tells us everything we need to know about Augustus Caesar, son of Julius Caesar. Historians accept Tacitus as the BEST PRIMARY historical source for anything regarding the Roman Empire.
2) You would accept Josephus account of the death of King Herod Agrippa in his work Antiquities of the Jews. It's the best historical account of that particular king's death in ancient Israeli history. Almost every historical scholar accepts it. It's also in the Gospel of Luke.
3) You would accept Pliny the Younger's written accounts of the eruption of Vesuvius which killed his father. Virtually all historians of ancient Greco-Roma culture accept these accounts.
Here's the real issue:
It's not that Jesus didn't exist. No sir. The real issue is that Jesus' existence bothers you so much, that you'll go to any length to revise history to get rid of that fact. You're attempting to circumvent historical events, on emotional and volitional grounds, because it really bothers you if he did exist. His existence causes you to think about being judged. It causes you to think of life after death. It causes you to evaluate your own values to see if you're living a self-absorbed life. You're afraid of change. You're afraid of being found "wrong."
What's the difference between a psychotic and a neurotic?
A psychotic is convinced that 2+2=5.
A neurotic knows that 2+2=4, but it really bothers him.
What's the difference between an atheist and a Jesus mythicist?
An atheist is honest enough to admit Jesus existed but denies the deity of Jesus.
A Jesus mythicist is so bothered by Jesus existence that he has to deny every single source that mentions Jesus as a historical person, and in so doing, attempts to re-write history and even define how historical research SHOULD be conducted to ease his own discomfort.
Now THAT is psychotic.
Poorly constructed straw man.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#171844 Jul 12, 2013
Roman Apologist wrote:
From volume 15 of Tacitus' Annals of Rome which can be read in it's translated entirety here:
http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.11.xv....
Notice the web address? M.I.T. One of the best technical colleges in the nation. A very SECULAR college. Now why would such a prestigious secular school have a collection from the greatest Roman historian, including the passage related to Jesus, if it wasn't an authentic copy?
Here's the entire passage, word for word.
Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.
Boo-yah!:)
Is there any "supporting" document that references the Jesus!, that hasn't been tampered with or altered?
http://www.natzraya.org/Articles/Christian/Ch...

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#171845 Jul 12, 2013
The Almighty Tzar wrote:
<quoted text>
Ditto
thats a slap to the jaw!

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#171846 Jul 12, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah but you're wrong, on both counts.
Time dilates with gravity, so in infinite gravity it can be stationary. Therefore no motion of time. Also the physical reality we know, has been observed by quantum effect that it can indeed be broken down into two dimensions. 3D can become 2D+2D as mind boggling as it sounds, it has been observed.
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2006/june7/flat...
It should be pointed out that three dimensions of space still exist here. What is happening is that different planes in the crystal do not affects each other here in the way we would usually expect. It is certainly not a breakdown of spacetime or anything like that. It *is* an interesting example of a phase transition depending on quantum effects that limit interactions to within 2 dimensional subspaces.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#171847 Jul 12, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah but you're wrong, on both counts.
Time dilates with gravity, so in infinite gravity it can be stationary. Therefore no motion of time. Also the physical reality we know, has been observed by quantum effect that it can indeed be broken down into two dimensions. 3D can become 2D+2D as mind boggling as it sounds, it has been observed.
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2006/june7/flat...
Here's the original article, in case you are interested:

http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0606042

And here are some follow-up articles:

http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0702157
http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.1351
http://arxiv.org/abs/0811.4745
http://arxiv.org/abs/1208.4499

Interesting stuff. Not very relevant for cosmology, per se.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#171848 Jul 12, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> Did you make the mistake that poly was the absolute end answer to all?
No do not mistake me, ploy has much better logic than you have ever presented.
He also is about 10^10th smarter than you , but we can only learn what really happens. You will have to research han purple to understand that quantum effects are , and sometimes they are completely and utterly incomprehensible to everything we thought we knew.
Actually, this type of dimensional reduction in condensed matter systems was predicted long before it was observed. But it is not the same as the emergence of dimensionality in, say, a theory of quantum gravity.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#171849 Jul 12, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's the original article, in case you are interested:
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0606042
And here are some follow-up articles:
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0702157
http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.1351
http://arxiv.org/abs/0811.4745
http://arxiv.org/abs/1208.4499
Interesting stuff. Not very relevant for cosmology, per se.
Already read them.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#171850 Jul 12, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's the original article, in case you are interested:
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0606042
And here are some follow-up articles:
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0702157
http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.1351
http://arxiv.org/abs/0811.4745
http://arxiv.org/abs/1208.4499
Interesting stuff. Not very relevant for cosmology, per se.
What it really means , it yet to be fully realized.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#171851 Jul 12, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's the original article, in case you are interested:
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0606042
And here are some follow-up articles:
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0702157
http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.1351
http://arxiv.org/abs/0811.4745
http://arxiv.org/abs/1208.4499
Interesting stuff. Not very relevant for cosmology, per se.
No superflow or superconductivity and the B/E effect are not universal scale as far as we know, but it is a hint that 3D can be reduced.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#171852 Jul 12, 2013
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
Poorly constructed straw man.
Not a straw man. The truth.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#171853 Jul 12, 2013
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
Is there any "supporting" document that references the Jesus!, that hasn't been tampered with or altered?
http://www.natzraya.org/Articles/Christian/Ch...
This entire article quibbles over the use of the word "Christians" and has nothing to do with the existence of Jesus or any orthodox Christian doctrine. Now that's a straw man fallacy.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#171854 Jul 12, 2013
I factually took it apart point by point. In many of your examples, many forged by Christians later by the way all we see is people documenting what Christians were saying about Jesus not that the person had witnessed Jesus himself. Again that's if we overlook obvious forgeries.

And how would you know what I would and wouldn't accept? If it is based on solid secular history and not a forgery then we have something real there. I am not afraid if your Jew on a stick existed. If h did we see from the bible he was very ignorant and mentally unstable. He would be a joke, nothing more. He wasn't the first son of god that belief was required to go to heaven. Horus probably takes that honor from thousands of years before.

Oh and an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in any god, it has nothing to do with saying Jesus existed. Learn to use google you ignorant c@cks@cker.
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>I ran? I didn't even see it. I'm not on here all the time. I don't read every reply. But since you admit to attempting to dismantle every one of the website's arguments, it shows something else that you can't see for yourself.

1) You don't accept the Josephus passages about Jesus.
2) You don't accept the Tacitus passages about Jesus.
3) You don't accept the Suetonius passage about Jesus.
4) You don't accept the Pliny the Younger passage referring to Jesus.
5) You don't accept the Mara Bar-Serapion letter referring to Jesus.

And you certainly wouldn't accept any of the canonical gospels which all very likely date prior to 70 A.D. So that's 9 accounts you WON'T accept.

1) Now in contrast, you would accept Book 1 of Tacitus' Annals because it tells us everything we need to know about Augustus Caesar, son of Julius Caesar. Historians accept Tacitus as the BEST PRIMARY historical source for anything regarding the Roman Empire.

2) You would accept Josephus account of the death of King Herod Agrippa in his work Antiquities of the Jews. It's the best historical account of that particular king's death in ancient Israeli history. Almost every historical scholar accepts it. It's also in the Gospel of Luke.

3) You would accept Pliny the Younger's written accounts of the eruption of Vesuvius which killed his father. Virtually all historians of ancient Greco-Roma culture accept these accounts.

Here's the real issue:

It's not that Jesus didn't exist. No sir. The real issue is that Jesus' existence bothers you so much, that you'll go to any length to revise history to get rid of that fact. You're attempting to circumvent historical events, on emotional and volitional grounds, because it really bothers you if he did exist. His existence causes you to think about being judged.
What's the difference between an atheist and a Jesus mythicist?

An atheist is honest enough to admit Jesus existed but denies the deity of Jesus.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#171855 Jul 12, 2013
An essay by a Christian means what exactly?
Roman Apologist wrote:
From volume 15 of Tacitus' Annals of Rome which can be read in it's translated entirety here:

http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.11.xv....

Notice the web address? M.I.T. One of the best technical colleges in the nation. A very SECULAR college. Now why would such a prestigious secular school have a collection from the greatest Roman historian, including the passage related to Jesus, if it wasn't an authentic copy?

Here's the entire passage, word for word.

Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Boo-yah!:)

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#171856 Jul 12, 2013
I guess when the facts are against you logo al fallacies are all you have left.

Josephus mentions Hercules over a dozen times, I wonder if he would accept that as proof that the son of Zeus really existed?
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>Poorly constructed straw man.

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#171857 Jul 12, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
I guess when the facts are against you logo al fallacies are all you have left.
Josephus mentions Hercules over a dozen times, I wonder if he would accept that as proof that the son of Zeus really existed?
<quoted text>
you're stupid

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